Author Topic: Won't start after sitting at work today.  (Read 4003 times)

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Beetle550

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Won't start after sitting at work today.
« on: September 14, 2011, 04:53:58 PM »
Came out and tried to start my 550 after work and there was zero juice.

A couple weeks back I had to change a bad rectifier. I kept an eye on the charging level for a few days after the switch and after every ride the battery was ~12.75v.

Then this past weekend I had forgotten that I had turned the petcock off and ran out while I was parking the bike. When went to start it it cranked away for a minute while fuel was running back through the lines.

I'm wondering if I drained the battery too much while cranking it over to leave it way below 12v and therefore unable to give me a good charge. Does that sound possible?

After the cranking incident I've only ridden it on short (20min) rides to work. Where I'm at 4k rpm for about half the time. Other half is idling in traffic.

Right now the bike is stranded at my work. Thinking about going to give it a jump and charge the battery when I get it home. Does anyone think I could have ruined the battery and should just get a new one?
« Last Edit: September 15, 2011, 10:22:14 AM by Beetle550 »

Offline WarwickE36

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Re: Battery toast after sitting at work today.
« Reply #1 on: September 14, 2011, 05:05:54 PM »
Run it.... I hear people say draining a battery all the way down is a huge deal but it hasn't been for me.  I have an el cheapo battery from napa and I have killed it 3 times.  Every time has been my fault not the bike's.  I have left it in the shop with the light on until it dies.  Every time I have either jumped it and ran it hard, or set it on the charger at the heaven forbid 2amp setting, even at the 40amp once when in a hurry.  This battery has never not started for me all summer (minus the 3 times dum dum killed it)

Is it great for the battery, no.  In my opinion is your battery dead for good, doubtful.  You can always get another battery down the road if you have to.  Check fluid levels and run it until it proves out junked.
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Offline Gordon

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Re: Battery toast after sitting at work today.
« Reply #2 on: September 14, 2011, 05:16:05 PM »
It's doubtful that what you described is what caused the battery to be drained.  Check the electrolyte level, charge it and run it, but you still need to figure out why it died in the first place.  Did you turn the key the wrong way and leave the ignition switch in the "P" position all day? 

Beetle550

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Re: Battery toast after sitting at work today.
« Reply #3 on: September 14, 2011, 05:24:11 PM »
Nope, key was in the locked position.

Just checked the battery terminals and they seem to have both shaken themselves loose. Maybe that's part of the problem.

Im going to grab the battery, bring it home and check the fluid levels then throw it on the charger.

Offline Spanner 1

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Re: Battery toast after sitting at work today.
« Reply #4 on: September 14, 2011, 05:59:05 PM »
The only thing connected to the battery when the bike is parked and the ign. off is the rectifier, all day and night, 24/7, 365. As long as the battery is in the bike , the rectifier is in 'parallel' with it.
Here's what I think, one of the six diodes that make up your rectifier is shorted; result would be low charging rate ( good charge with good battery should be 14- 15 volts @ 4 or 5 krpm ) and slow discharge ( all the time , bike running or bike parked )  Do a rectifier test and see what's happening, g'luck  :)
« Last Edit: September 14, 2011, 06:01:21 PM by Spanner 1 »
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If your sure it's an ignition problem; it's carbs....

Beetle550

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Re: Battery toast after sitting at work today.
« Reply #5 on: September 14, 2011, 06:35:20 PM »
Well I just got to work to grab the battery to bring home. I threw the voltmeter on it and it reads 12.65v. Looks like I have juice, it's just not getting where it needs to go.

Where is a good place to start?

Could it be the switch in the ignition is bad?

Offline Bodi

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Re: Battery toast after sitting at work today.
« Reply #6 on: September 14, 2011, 06:39:08 PM »
measure the battery voltage with a load. a bad battery can still have good voltage until you try to draw some power from it.

Beetle550

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Re: Battery toast after sitting at work today.
« Reply #7 on: September 14, 2011, 07:24:11 PM »
Did some more poking before I pulled the battery and measured the resistance on all the fuses. They all "look" good when I checked them earlier. One of them showed no resistance so I swapped it with another and checked the key... We have power!!

Somehow the fuse blew while the bike was off. I'm going to replace it and keep an eye on it for a while. Hopefully it was just a old fuse that had seen better days.

Thanks for all the replies!

Offline Spanner 1

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Re: Battery toast after sitting at work today.
« Reply #8 on: September 14, 2011, 08:39:12 PM »
Sometimes when the OP finds the immediate problem they thank the responders and go about their business.... in this case I think we may be hearing from Beetle again and soon ??? as the fuse changout will not be the actual fix IMHO... more issues need to be addressed.......... then there is another point; some folks are happy/O.K./content to fix the ' it won't go ' problem and move on until the next stop running issue, that's fine. Some tho' want to actually find the cause, depends on how you use your bike I guess, 'round the hood or reliable as you can make it long distance ready.... all good  :)
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Beetle550

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Re: Battery toast after sitting at work today.
« Reply #9 on: September 15, 2011, 06:57:12 AM »
I'm sure I'll have more questions about this in the future too!

Obviously, the fuse blew for some reason... It is confusing to me that I managed to drive into work fine and the fuse was blown when I went back out to the bike. I'm going to be looking into what is on that circuit so I have an idea where to go with my diagnosis. If anyone has suggestions on possible sources, I'm all ears.

Electrical work is always a little daunting for me so I'll be taking it slow. Despite owning old VW's, this is my first bike so I'm still in a learning curve with it.

Offline 70CB750

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Re: Battery toast after sitting at work today.
« Reply #10 on: September 15, 2011, 07:15:07 AM »
Totaly draining battery is actually good for the battery.  Small bulb and leave it to go to 0 ;  we used to do it in military when trying ot revive not so good anymore batteries.
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Offline greenjeans

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Re: Battery toast after sitting at work today.
« Reply #11 on: September 15, 2011, 09:24:41 AM »
You mentioned that the bolts on the terminal had shaken themselves loose.     That could easily do it.  Clean the terminals and hook it back up and try that before you buy anything.   Corrosion or lack of a good, solid, tight connection can easily give those symptoms. 
Yep, I'm the kid that figured out how to put things back together...eventually.

KingCustomCycles.com

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Re: Battery toast after sitting at work today.
« Reply #12 on: September 15, 2011, 09:39:12 AM »
Batteries can drain to the point that they don't know they are batteries, polarity can reverse in a cell or two, battery dead.  In the model airplane business we used to cycle nicad and lead acid batties to keep them fresh.  This involved draining them almost dead and then recharging.  Also, the occasional high current charge like a jump start won't hurt either as it can remove coatings from the plates and restore capacity.  The down side of that is the material collects in the bottom of the battery case and short out the cells, again, battery dead.

Offline TwoTired

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Re: Battery toast after sitting at work today.
« Reply #13 on: September 15, 2011, 10:28:55 AM »
Totaly draining battery is actually good for the battery.  Small bulb and leave it to go to 0 ;  we used to do it in military when trying ot revive not so good anymore batteries.
Then do it to your own batteries.  But, don't tell others to ruin their batteries.
VERY poor advice for nearly all battery types, certainly lead acid.  Starting batteries do NOT like deep discharge, and it shortens their full potential, capacity, and operating life.
True, a jolt can can sometimes reactivate a worn/sick battery depending on it's failure mode.  But, if you do so with a healthy battery, better be ready to buy a new one pretty soon.

In the military, you don't pay for the battery, the taxpayer does.
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Offline Deltarider

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Re: Won't start after sitting at work today.
« Reply #14 on: September 15, 2011, 10:42:57 AM »
Quote
Totaly draining battery is actually good for the battery.  Small bulb and leave it to go to 0 ;  we used to do it in military when trying ot revive not so good anymore batteries.
No, no, no. Another of those myth's from the past. Rubbish, it's sheer rubbish
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Offline 70CB750

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Re: Won't start after sitting at work today.
« Reply #15 on: September 15, 2011, 10:45:43 AM »
We actually had good results with that procedure; documented and cofirmed.
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Offline TwoTired

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Re: Won't start after sitting at work today.
« Reply #16 on: September 15, 2011, 10:49:07 AM »
We actually had good results with that procedure; documented and cofirmed.
Then show where it is documented and confirmed.  Or, show the science and chemistry that supports it.
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Offline 70CB750

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Re: Won't start after sitting at work today.
« Reply #17 on: September 15, 2011, 10:53:58 AM »
No problem, I  actually have all the records of the 1077 motorized infantry regiment  of the Czechoslovakian Army in my basement, give me  a minute and I will pull them out for you.   ;D

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Offline cameron

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Re: Won't start after sitting at work today.
« Reply #18 on: September 15, 2011, 11:57:25 AM »
Ill take TT over the Czech army ANY DAY OF THE WEEK!

To the OP: check your steering stops. I had a marker light's line pinch there once.. weirdest thing. I would blow fuses occasionally, but progressively.. only when turning. Like when you lock your steering.
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Offline shark

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Re: Won't start after sitting at work today.
« Reply #19 on: September 15, 2011, 01:12:14 PM »
I'm sure I'll have more questions about this in the future too!

Obviously, the fuse blew for some reason... It is confusing to me that I managed to drive into work fine and the fuse was blown when I went back out to the bike. I'm going to be looking into what is on that circuit so I have an idea where to go with my diagnosis. If anyone has suggestions on possible sources, I'm all ears.

Electrical work is always a little daunting for me so I'll be taking it slow. Despite owning old VW's, this is my first bike so I'm still in a learning curve with it.

I found this to be very helpful in dealing with the electrical problems with my bike

http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php?topic=1012.0

As far as the fuse going bad, many years ago, the main fuse in my bike went. It looked good, the meter showed it was bad. I replaced it and it's still in there. I keep spare fuses with the bike, just in case.


Offline jamman718

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Re: Won't start after sitting at work today.
« Reply #20 on: September 15, 2011, 01:30:34 PM »
Check the water level as well. I have what I thought was a DEAD one that would not take a charge but after topping off the water it worked fine!

Beetle550

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Re: Won't start after sitting at work today.
« Reply #21 on: September 15, 2011, 08:29:22 PM »
Thanks for the tip Cameron. I thought maybe there could be something related to locking the steering. I'll have to really get out there and see if I can find a pinch.

Offline RAWNOG

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Re: Won't start after sitting at work today.
« Reply #22 on: September 15, 2011, 10:28:12 PM »
Hey, I would like to have my bike be kick start only, just while I wait for my RH starter switch to come in the mail. I have 1975 cb550k, and I want to know how to wire the headlight and kill switch so I can run kick start only.
1975 CB550k 

Offline 70CB750

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Re: Won't start after sitting at work today.
« Reply #23 on: September 16, 2011, 02:46:17 AM »
Ill take TT over the Czech army ANY DAY OF THE WEEK!

To the OP: check your steering stops. I had a marker light's line pinch there once.. weirdest thing. I would blow fuses occasionally, but progressively.. only when turning. Like when you lock your steering.

LOL, I am the last one to defend communistic army :)

The total charging capacity was few hundred amps, I believe 60 tank size batteries in one batch.  We handled more batteries in a week than  99% people touch in their lifetime and kept meticulous records about each one.  The bulb discharging we did for batteries that would not hold charge and majority  of them improved. 

Anyway, Mr.TT  can you show the science and chemistry that  confirms that it does not work?


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Offline TwoTired

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Re: Won't start after sitting at work today.
« Reply #24 on: September 16, 2011, 11:56:10 AM »
Anyway, Mr.TT  can you show the science and chemistry that  confirms that it does not work?
If you mean, will completely draining damage the ordinary lead acid battery in an SOHC4?
Yes.
However, all the information is readily available on the internet.

Of course, not all batteries are the same, or even employ the same technology, chemistry, or plate separator mechanics.  You most certainly can't treat them all with same approach as you suggest.

Quote
Electrochemistry

In the charged state, each cell contains electrodes of elemental lead (Pb) and lead(IV) oxide (PbO2) in an electrolyte of approximately 33.5% v/v (4.2 Molar) sulfuric acid (H2SO4).

In the discharged state both electrodes turn into lead(II) sulfate (PbSO4) and the electrolyte loses its dissolved sulfuric acid and becomes primarily water. Due to the freezing-point depression of water, as the battery discharges and the concentration of sulfuric acid decreases, the electrolyte is more likely to freeze during winter weather.
Discharge:
During discharge, both plates return to lead sulfate. The process is driven by the conduction of electrons from the cathode back into the cell at the anode.

    Anode Reaction: Pb(s) + HSO4 (aq) → PbSO4(s) + H+(aq) + 2e
    Cathode Reaction: PbO2(s) + HSO4(aq) + 3H+(aq) + 2e → PbSO4(s) + 2H2O(l)


Recharging:
Subsequent charging places the battery back in its charged state, changing the lead sulfates into lead and lead oxides. The process is driven by the forcible removal of electrons from the anode and the forcible introduction of them to the cathode.

    Anode Reaction: PbSO4(s) + H+(aq) + 2e → Pb(s) + HSO4(aq)
    Cathode Reaction: PbSO4(s) + 2H2O(l) → PbO2(s) + HSO4(aq) + 3H+(aq) + 2e

Quote
Depth of Discharge (DOD)
    The Depth of Discharge (DOD) is a measure of how deeply a battery is discharged. When a battery is 100% full, then the DOD is 0%. Conversely, when a battery is 100% empty, the DOD is 100%. The deeper batteries are discharged on average, the shorter their so-called cycle life.

    For example, starter batteries are not designed to be discharged deeply (no more than 20% DOD). Indeed, if used as designed, they hardly discharge at all: Engine starts are very energy-intensive but the duration is very short. Most battery manufacturers advocate not discharging their batteries more than 50% before re-charging them.

Quote
Starting batteries
Main article: Car battery

Lead acid batteries designed for starting automotive engines are not designed for deep discharge. They have a large number of thin plates designed for maximum surface area, and therefore maximum current output, but which can easily be damaged by deep discharge. Repeated deep discharges will result in capacity loss and ultimately in premature failure, as the electrodes disintegrate due to mechanical stresses that arise from cycling. Starting batteries kept on continuous float charge will have corrosion in the electrodes and result in premature failure. Starting batteries should be kept open circuit but charged regularly (at least once every two weeks) to prevent sulfation.

Starting batteries are lighter weight than deep cycle batteries of the same battery dimensions, because the cell plates do not extend all the way to the bottom of the battery case. This allows loose disintegrated lead to fall off the plates and collect under the cells, to prolong the service life of the battery. If this loose debris rises high enough it can touch the plates and lead to failure of a cell, resulting in loss of battery voltage and capacity.

Starting battery plates are often porous, in order to increase plate surface area in a small physical size plate dimension.  Discharging produces lead sulphate which fills these pores and effectively reduces their active area, and thus capacity.  Recharging converts most lead sulphate back, and is deposited back on to the origin plate.  It is only the plate separators that may guide the material back to the origin on the plate, but there are inaccuracies in placement, which tend to distort the plate and change the porosity of the plate, or total plate area available for the next chemical reaction during discharge.  The reconversion is also typically incomplete, particularly when using voltage sense cut off chargers where the chemical conversion is sensed electrically rather than chemically.  Meaning that the voltage at the terminal posts can be slightly different than at the far reaches of the plate, where lead sulphate conversion in not completed to exhaustion.  The better voltage sense float chargers "sneak up" to final full charge voltage in order to allow all the chemicals time to complete conversion.

Completely draining a perfect battery would chemically coat the plate with non-conductive lead sulphate material.  It is only the imperfections in battery construction that would allow any sort of partial recovery.  But, it would certainly leave the plates in overall far worse condition than if it were simply recharged, rather than abused.

References:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lead%E2%80%93acid_battery
http://www.vonwentzel.net/Battery/00.Glossary/
Lloyd... (SOHC4 #11 Original Mail List)
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Those that learn from history are doomed to repeat it by those that don't learn from history.