Author Topic: jake brake, jacob brake?  (Read 4539 times)

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Offline xsmooth69x

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jake brake, jacob brake?
« on: September 21, 2011, 12:58:42 AM »
im a bartender and i was talking to this really drunk biker and we started talking bikes

he was shiat faced btw.

he said back in the day when he was a kid there would be a throttle cable or something you would pull to slow down the bike and it would make a loud annoying and redonkulous noise.

so was this dude talking about a jake brake like on a diesel truck or old 2 stoke motors to release pressure making a noise and slowing down the motor?

or was he talking about like some kind of exhaust butterfly flap thing to restrict exhaust pressure to slow the motor down or just having it dump the exhaust close to the headers making a noise or something idk
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Offline dave500

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Re: jake brake, jacob brake?
« Reply #1 on: September 21, 2011, 01:07:51 AM »
a really drunk biker goes into a bar,he starts talking to the bar tender about bikes,they both end up confused,,end of joke.

Offline xsmooth69x

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Re: jake brake, jacob brake?
« Reply #2 on: September 21, 2011, 01:41:20 AM »
really?!?!? darn it i wanted some cool annoying cable the pull to make my bike annoying..... i dont think my straight header to cherry bomb muffler or my stebel nautilus horn thats 115db @ 6 feet away  ;D
1975 CB550 (FINISHED?!?!?)
first motorcycle ever!!! ow and i dont know how to ride it either :D

raw rust rice venti quad shot cafe racing latte project aka my build..... http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php?topic=88853.0

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1972 cb750 - next in line for some <3

Offline RustyJC

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Re: jake brake, jacob brake?
« Reply #3 on: September 21, 2011, 02:42:35 AM »
The really old bikes (especially the thumpers) had a cable-operated compression release to allow you to roll the engine over to "spot" it prior to trying (mostly in vain) to kickstart them.

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Re: jake brake, jacob brake?
« Reply #4 on: September 21, 2011, 02:56:08 AM »
Hard accel then immediate throttle chop, in town between buildings, lots of people, open header, is annoying (to them) The afterfire in the header can be very loud.  Have no idea about what the drunk biker was talking about.  Sounds like he wouldn't need much assistance to be annoying.

Offline Lostboy Steve

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Re: jake brake, jacob brake?
« Reply #5 on: September 21, 2011, 05:02:31 AM »
I know a guy with an f4 and he likes to kill the ignition, pump the throttle about 5 times, and then fire the ignition back on, all at speed. It doesn't make much noise but it does produce quite a fireball. Hes a complete dunce though and I'm sure its not good for the engine / plugs.
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Offline ekpent

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Re: jake brake, jacob brake?
« Reply #6 on: September 21, 2011, 05:03:58 AM »
He was probably talking about a compression release mechanism of somekind.Some large single cyclinder dirt bikes etc had them in the day.

Offline MCRider

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Re: jake brake, jacob brake?
« Reply #7 on: September 21, 2011, 08:32:01 AM »
He was probably talking about a compression release mechanism of somekind.Some large single cyclinder dirt bikes etc had them in the day.
Yeah, my bet is its a compression release found on many single cylinder motorcycles. I think the diesel engine "jake brake" is a compression release as well.

By reducing the compression a diesel engine can't fire (needs high compression for non-spark combustion) and the unspent raw fuel is pumped out the exhaust, creating high engine braking effect, and for whatever reason it makes a very loud noise.

The comp release on a bike is to assist in starting, but i suppose one could pull it while riding. Runs the risk of fouling the plug I'd think, and the mixture may still fire, shooting flame past the exhaust valve and out the pipe, bot very bad for the engine.
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Offline 754

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Re: jake brake, jacob brake?
« Reply #8 on: September 21, 2011, 10:25:45 AM »
The CR was used sometimes going down steep hills engine off to avoid skidding rear wheel, I thought.
 Yeah header kill the motor, open the throttle.. back on.. KABOOM..... did it hundreds of times, till I blew a head gasket, and had to pull the motor..
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Re: jake brake, jacob brake?
« Reply #9 on: September 21, 2011, 11:00:10 AM »
Speaking as a retired (shipboard) diesel wrench monkey .... When the Jake brake system is activated via solenoid, the fuel flow is terminated and the piston compresses the air to very high pressure. The exhaust valve is opened near the peak compression stroke allowing that energy to be released effectively slowing the vehicle as mechanical energy is converted to heat energy. This process is continually repeated until the driver deactivates the Jake brake system. A more advanced system than the technology of a standard compression release. (click on pic to enlarge)

« Last Edit: September 21, 2011, 11:04:42 AM by Hinomaru »

Offline MCRider

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Re: jake brake, jacob brake?
« Reply #10 on: September 21, 2011, 11:08:06 AM »
Cool, that makes more sense than my idea, blowing a full unburnt charge out the exhaust.
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Offline flybox1

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Re: jake brake, jacob brake?
« Reply #11 on: September 21, 2011, 11:27:53 AM »
Hard accel then immediate throttle chop......The afterfire in the header can be very loud. 
just a few weeks back i experienced this....driving one sunny day, windows down, wife and (sleeping) kids in tow...some squid on a newer R1 w/o a can did this@ 70mph just 2 lanes over from us.  :o
I thought i would have to pull over to attend to my bleeding eardrum, my soiled shorts and the screaming kids....but i only had to change my shorts.  ::)
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Offline xsmooth69x

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Re: jake brake, jacob brake?
« Reply #12 on: September 21, 2011, 01:21:47 PM »
Hard accel then immediate throttle chop......The afterfire in the header can be very loud. 
just a few weeks back i experienced this....driving one sunny day, windows down, wife and (sleeping) kids in tow...some squid on a newer R1 w/o a can did this@ 70mph just 2 lanes over from us.  :o
I thought i would have to pull over to attend to my bleeding eardrum, my soiled shorts and the screaming kids....but i only had to change my shorts.  ::)
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so a backfire

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so there is no jake brake for the cb750?? there werent some chopper aftermarket stuff that added a jake brake to our bikes? i looked at the interweb a little more and harleys and like big dogs still use them
« Last Edit: September 21, 2011, 01:25:17 PM by xsmooth69x »
1975 CB550 (FINISHED?!?!?)
first motorcycle ever!!! ow and i dont know how to ride it either :D

raw rust rice venti quad shot cafe racing latte project aka my build..... http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php?topic=88853.0

black and white equation godzilla chalkboard 
1972 cb750 - next in line for some <3

Offline lone*X

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Re: jake brake, jacob brake?
« Reply #13 on: September 21, 2011, 01:42:25 PM »
Odd no one has mentioned this yet.  Simple downshift and throttle roll off.  Called engine braking and is as basic as dirt.  With any type of open or loud exhaust it can be very loud and annoying.  I always use engine braking before brakes unless it is an emergency stop.  May be old school but to me it saves on rotor/drum heating and pad/shoe wear.  This applies to any standard/manual shift vehicle.  I always want to be in a low gear that I can pull away with before I come to a complete stop, never know when some fool wants to run up your rear.
« Last Edit: September 21, 2011, 01:45:12 PM by lone*X »
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Offline 754

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Re: jake brake, jacob brake?
« Reply #14 on: September 21, 2011, 07:48:04 PM »
XS the ones you are seeing  for V 2wins, are for ease of starting.. had the same thing in my STIHL chainsaw.. They actually have what looks loke a tiny  ex valve in there.
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Offline Gordon

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Re: jake brake, jacob brake?
« Reply #15 on: September 21, 2011, 08:00:40 PM »
Odd no one has mentioned this yet.  Simple downshift and throttle roll off.  Called engine braking and is as basic as dirt.  With any type of open or loud exhaust it can be very loud and annoying.  I always use engine braking before brakes unless it is an emergency stop.  May be old school but to me it saves on rotor/drum heating and pad/shoe wear.  This applies to any standard/manual shift vehicle.  I always want to be in a low gear that I can pull away with before I come to a complete stop, never know when some fool wants to run up your rear.

+1

Diesel engines are a very different entity than our gasoline engines.  Somebody correct me if I'm wrong, but from what I know, a diesel engine with a jake brake slows down off the compression stroke, and the jake brake releases that compression at the top of the compression stroke so it doesn't rebound into the down-stroke.  A gasoline engine gets its engine braking from the intake stroke when it's creating a vacuum by trying to suck in air on the intake stroke but the air isn't available due to the throttle valves being closed. 

Offline 754

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Re: jake brake, jacob brake?
« Reply #16 on: September 21, 2011, 08:09:47 PM »
A lot of the old CRs just lifted the ex valve, allows it to leak.. a lot of early motorcycles and our Whizzers start that way,..lift valve, pedal to turn motor, drop valve to start it.
 The little ones with a valve require drilling and tapping into a head to use them.. inless they are pre-drilled or you have a second plug hole you are not using..

 If you want to scare cats, and children, use the kill switch..
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Offline MidnightLamp

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Re: jake brake, jacob brake?
« Reply #17 on: September 21, 2011, 08:26:51 PM »
XS the ones you are seeing  for V 2wins, are for ease of starting.. had the same thing in my STIHL chainsaw.. They actually have what looks loke a tiny  ex valve in there.

This. A compression release on a motorcycle is usually a lifter on a pushrod of brit singles or harleys to open the exhaust valve to help you find kick through TDC. Sometimes (usually on smaller singles) it's a little valve sitting opposite the spark plug to vent the combustion chamber. This allows the manufacturer to gear the kick starter down a tiny bit and lets you get the bike to the right place (usually using the ammeter to follow the points opening/closing) and give it a quick kick. These do not function like a jake brake, as you loose almost all your compression and would just kill the engine. Without one, high comp undersquare singles are NOT fun to kick over without one.

As for the actual purpose: trucks don't use them because they're cool, they're used because VGT's are faily new technology. Diesel engines have very little engine braking power, as they meter fuel into the combustion chamber, and therefore have low intake pressure even as the throttle is closed. A compression brake allows the engine to actually brake when off throttle, but involves a timed valve that opens near TDC to vent built up gas (which is mixed with almost no fuel). This is useful because of severe brake fade when going down sharp grades with heavy machinery/trucks. Using compression brakes lessens the load on the actual braking system, a rather high wear part of a semi.
   
It sounds a little....childish/stupid to want to make your motorcycle specifically annoying. It's sorta in the same category as bikers who sit at lights and rev continuously. Old man, here, I guess...
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Offline scottly

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Re: jake brake, jacob brake?
« Reply #18 on: September 21, 2011, 09:10:21 PM »
Two-stroke motors have little to no compression braking, so compression releases were often added, back in the "old days". I machined the head of my 82 CR480 to accept one that my buddy had left over from his Yamaha DT1 days. It made it much easier on steep downhills, where just tapping the rear brake would lock the rear wheel. By pulling the release, I could slow the bike down without breaking the rear tire loose or stalling the motor.
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Offline dave500

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Re: jake brake, jacob brake?
« Reply #19 on: September 21, 2011, 11:22:35 PM »
older macks have a "dyna tard"which is their brand name for the exhaust valve type brake,,on macks it was principly to allow the engine to slow down before you lost road speed during an uphill gear change on the six speed wide ratio compound transmissions.

Offline xsmooth69x

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Re: jake brake, jacob brake?
« Reply #20 on: September 22, 2011, 01:41:53 PM »
Odd no one has mentioned this yet.  Simple downshift and throttle roll off.  Called engine braking and is as basic as dirt.  With any type of open or loud exhaust it can be very loud and annoying.  I always use engine braking before brakes unless it is an emergency stop.  May be old school but to me it saves on rotor/drum heating and pad/shoe wear.  This applies to any standard/manual shift vehicle.  I always want to be in a low gear that I can pull away with before I come to a complete stop, never know when some fool wants to run up your rear.

all my cars are manual and i down shift all the time.

a good thing though i dont mean to school anyone but i would image this would be extra important on a motorcycle but when you downshift to slow down you should tap your rear brake to activate your brake lights (but not actually the brakes since the light should usually click on first before the brakes actually engage) so the people behind you know your slowing down. i even do this with my car i give it a tap tap tap

XS the ones you are seeing  for V 2wins, are for ease of starting.. had the same thing in my STIHL chainsaw.. They actually have what looks loke a tiny  ex valve in there.

This. A compression release on a motorcycle is usually a lifter on a pushrod of brit singles or harleys to open the exhaust valve to help you find kick through TDC. Sometimes (usually on smaller singles) it's a little valve sitting opposite the spark plug to vent the combustion chamber. This allows the manufacturer to gear the kick starter down a tiny bit and lets you get the bike to the right place (usually using the ammeter to follow the points opening/closing) and give it a quick kick. These do not function like a jake brake, as you loose almost all your compression and would just kill the engine. Without one, high comp undersquare singles are NOT fun to kick over without one.

As for the actual purpose: trucks don't use them because they're cool, they're used because VGT's are faily new technology. Diesel engines have very little engine braking power, as they meter fuel into the combustion chamber, and therefore have low intake pressure even as the throttle is closed. A compression brake allows the engine to actually brake when off throttle, but involves a timed valve that opens near TDC to vent built up gas (which is mixed with almost no fuel). This is useful because of severe brake fade when going down sharp grades with heavy machinery/trucks. Using compression brakes lessens the load on the actual braking system, a rather high wear part of a semi.
   
It sounds a little....childish/stupid to want to make your motorcycle specifically annoying. It's sorta in the same category as bikers who sit at lights and rev continuously. Old man, here, I guess...

from what i understand diesel engines dont have a throttle body that the "gas pedal" is just on or off (to apply power or not to apply power) since the diesel is just dictated by the amount of fuel injected into the engine. so letting off the gas pretty much doesnt do anything like our gas engines we let go of the gas we slow down. but with an exhaust brake or a jake brake (i think theirs a difference... exhaust brake slows the engine by a butterfly flap that closes the exhaust, building up back pressure slowing the engine, jake break is releasing the compression) this compression release helps the engine slow down i dont know the exact fundamentals behind this other than it deals with the exhaust. so letting go of the gas, hitting the jake brake, and then hitting the brake is easier on the braking system and you slow down faster vs just hitting the brake

well i dont like the people who sit there and rev there bike continuously every time i see that i think that their must be something wrong with their bike that if they where to let go of their throttle would their bike stall out lol that what pops in my head not that their cool but there bike must be a POS

i am a child lol. its my first bike and i want to be that squid  8) (for a while anyways and get my fix of idiocracy and ill grow into an old man)


--------------


heres a video... i havent watched it because it looks boring but if you old timers are interested

Theory and Operation of The Jake Brake Engine Brake
« Last Edit: September 22, 2011, 01:59:27 PM by xsmooth69x »
1975 CB550 (FINISHED?!?!?)
first motorcycle ever!!! ow and i dont know how to ride it either :D

raw rust rice venti quad shot cafe racing latte project aka my build..... http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php?topic=88853.0

black and white equation godzilla chalkboard 
1972 cb750 - next in line for some <3

Offline nccb

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Re: jake brake, jacob brake?
« Reply #21 on: September 22, 2011, 01:51:44 PM »
all my cars are manual and i down shift all the time.

a good thing though i dont mean to school anyone but i would image this would be extra important on a motorcycle but when you downshift to slow down you should tap your rear brake to activate your brake lights (but not actually the brakes since the light should usually click on first before the brakes actually engage) so the people behind you know your slowing down. i even do this with my car i give it a tap tap tap

+1 (from me anyways) I didn't think about alerting the person behind me when I do that. You may have saved me from some pain ;)

Offline xsmooth69x

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Re: jake brake, jacob brake?
« Reply #22 on: September 22, 2011, 02:19:38 PM »
all my cars are manual and i down shift all the time.

a good thing though i dont mean to school anyone but i would image this would be extra important on a motorcycle but when you downshift to slow down you should tap your rear brake to activate your brake lights (but not actually the brakes since the light should usually click on first before the brakes actually engage) so the people behind you know your slowing down. i even do this with my car i give it a tap tap tap

+1 (from me anyways) I didn't think about alerting the person behind me when I do that. You may have saved me from some pain ;)

 :)
« Last Edit: September 22, 2011, 02:21:33 PM by xsmooth69x »
1975 CB550 (FINISHED?!?!?)
first motorcycle ever!!! ow and i dont know how to ride it either :D

raw rust rice venti quad shot cafe racing latte project aka my build..... http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php?topic=88853.0

black and white equation godzilla chalkboard 
1972 cb750 - next in line for some <3

Offline phil71

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Re: jake brake, jacob brake?
« Reply #23 on: September 22, 2011, 02:42:14 PM »
this thread is kind of ridiculous, but fun. A jake brake on a bike, is a retarded notion, and these exhaust systems, especially old ones, would blow themselves to pieces if it was attempted. But that, in and of itself, could be really fun too.

Offline xsmooth69x

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Re: jake brake, jacob brake?
« Reply #24 on: September 22, 2011, 02:58:27 PM »
i thread to please  ;D

always fun posting some redonculous ideas from my brain  ::)
1975 CB550 (FINISHED?!?!?)
first motorcycle ever!!! ow and i dont know how to ride it either :D

raw rust rice venti quad shot cafe racing latte project aka my build..... http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php?topic=88853.0

black and white equation godzilla chalkboard 
1972 cb750 - next in line for some <3

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Re: jake brake, jacob brake?
« Reply #25 on: September 22, 2011, 06:24:06 PM »
The guy in the bar was correct. Many old flat trackers had an "engine brake". Especially the Jawas. As some else mentioned, it was a second spark plug hole. It had a spring loaded valve attached to a a tiny lever that hung under the clutch lever. The rider would pull the lever to instantly dump all the engine compression and then Pitch the bike into the corner. It sounds very similar to a semi Jake brake.  It's the coolest thing to hear and see. Takes me back and I'm not that old.

Offline ekpent

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Re: jake brake, jacob brake?
« Reply #26 on: September 22, 2011, 07:45:56 PM »
Yeah, those old flat trackers did not have much in the way of brakes. Used to have good flat track here in Kazoo many years ago,miss it.

Offline domer

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Re: jake brake, jacob brake?
« Reply #27 on: September 22, 2011, 10:46:37 PM »
Ive got one of those little suckers on my 70 Yamaha AT-1. Too bad i pulled the bike apart for a "cleaning" when i got it 18 months ago.   ::)