Author Topic: Airbox out?pods in......Where to w the breather tube...?  (Read 7610 times)

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Offline Gordon

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Re: Airbox out?pods in......Where to w the breather tube...?
« Reply #25 on: September 24, 2011, 09:37:01 PM »
Measure how much vacuum is developed in the breather hose. This is NOT a PVC system, as used on cars, that tap into the high-vacuum intake manifold.

I have to admit this is an interesting sub-topic to the "where should the breather line go" question.  There's no doubt that the take-off from the air box does proved some amount of vacuum to the crankcase breather, but how much vacuum does it provide and how much does it take to make a noticeable change in the seal of the rings?   

Offline scottly

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Re: Airbox out?pods in......Where to w the breather tube...?
« Reply #26 on: September 24, 2011, 10:07:07 PM »
There's no doubt that the take-off from the air box does proved some amount of vacuum to the crankcase breather
Yes, there is doubt. Until someone taps an accurate vacuum gauge into the breather tube and proves otherwise, I contend that no measurable vacuum exists at that point on an SOHC.
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Offline Gordon

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Re: Airbox out?pods in......Where to w the breather tube...?
« Reply #27 on: September 24, 2011, 10:14:07 PM »
There's no doubt that the take-off from the air box does proved some amount of vacuum to the crankcase breather
Yes, there is doubt. Until someone taps an accurate vacuum gauge into the breather tube and proves otherwise, I contend that no measurable vacuum exists at that point on an SOHC.

I don't see how there could be a doubt.  The cylinders create a vacuum in order to pull in air and fuel.  If you have any opening in the intake system, vacuum will exist at that opening.  The port in the air box that's meant to be connected to the crankcase breather is an opening in the intake system, so there must be a vacuum at it. 

Offline scottly

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Re: Airbox out?pods in......Where to w the breather tube...?
« Reply #28 on: September 24, 2011, 10:20:56 PM »
Nope. The breather tube ends in the air box, on the atmospheric pressure side of the carbs. Don't take my word for it, measure it yourself. ;)
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Offline Gordon

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Re: Airbox out?pods in......Where to w the breather tube...?
« Reply #29 on: September 24, 2011, 10:44:51 PM »
Nope. The breather tube ends in the air box, on the atmospheric pressure side of the carbs. Don't take my word for it, measure it yourself. ;)

I don't have to measure it to know that there's a vacuum on the back side of the carbs.  If there weren't, how would air get sucked into the carbs through the air filter, through the carbs, and into the cylinders?  The carbs do not supply the vacuum, they only regulate it. 

I'm only trying to say that it's an interesting question to ask how much vacuum the breather port on the air box supplies, and how much vacuum it takes to provide a noticeable difference to the overall performance of the piston rings.  If this is going to be a discussion on whether or not there is actually a vacuum in the air intake of an internal combustion engine, then I'm going to respectfully remove myself from it, because I don't know what to say at that point. 

Offline TwoTired

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Re: Airbox out?pods in......Where to w the breather tube...?
« Reply #30 on: September 25, 2011, 12:02:57 AM »
Nope. The breather tube ends in the air box, on the atmospheric pressure side of the carbs. Don't take my word for it, measure it yourself. ;)
It is not atmospheric pressure until you get to the outside of the air box inlet port.
If it was atmospheric pressure in the air box, no air would move into it.  So, by definition what is inside the air box MUST be lower pressure (partial vacuum) than the outside atmospheric pressure.
In fact, all along the path from air inlet to intake valve is a gradient pressure drop.  It is caused by the falling piston, and the negative pressure created by that expanding void is filled from the air inlet at the air box entrance.  All along that pathway a negative pressure exists, as that is the only reason for air movement in the duct work.  If you want air to move, there must be a high pressure moving toward low pressure, otherwise there is no movement.  The breather system in the SOHC4 is sources partial vacuum at a point in the air path after the air filter. The filter membrane creates another pressure drop across it.  The inlet air opening provides another point at which a pressure drop occurs.  Both of these points, as well as the duct distance and wall boundary layer, creates an additive pressure differential that absolutely must be less pressure than atmospheric.  It is certainly measurable with proper equipment.

Measure how much vacuum is developed in the breather hose. This is NOT a PVC system, as used on cars, that tap into the high-vacuum intake manifold.

PVC stands for Positive Crankcase Ventilation.  Which, as you pointed out, is NOT what the SOHC4 has.  Auto PVC systems have both and inlet and and outlet the crankcase so air can flow through it.  The SOHC4 has a single port.  (It can employ this because the internal crankcase volume of the engine doesn't have a net change due to two pistons moving while the other two move down.)   So, if you apply even a small negative pressure it will stay inside until equalized from another source, most probably blowby, which would then be fed to the engine combustion chamber through the carbs.

There are many flow meters that use the pressure drop across a calibrated distance in order to determine flow rate.  No pressure drop equals no flow. This is a basic principle of fluid and flow dynamics being exploited to gain measurable information.

I admit I never measured the breather tube pressure, or the crankcase pressure, for that matter.  Some things you know exist, simply because they must obey the laws of physics.  I don't have to measure the weight of all things to know that if they have mass, they will be drawn to the earth.

The negative pressure can also help keep engine leaky seals from oozing oil outside, btw.

Cheers,
Lloyd... (SOHC4 #11 Original Mail List)
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Offline cameron

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Re: Airbox out?pods in......Where to w the breather tube...?
« Reply #31 on: September 25, 2011, 10:32:35 AM »
just for posterity:
1976 CB550F

Offline jonboycox

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Re: Airbox out?pods in......Where to w the breather tube...?
« Reply #32 on: September 25, 2011, 03:40:18 PM »
While I am certainly no expert, it would seem a better option to separate the line into four and then do the air pod modification to all four pods. That would ensure that no one cylinder was being treated differently, as well as theoretically give you the same pressure draw as the air box set up.

Offline scottly

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Re: Airbox out?pods in......Where to w the breather tube...?
« Reply #33 on: September 25, 2011, 05:30:15 PM »

I'm only trying to say that it's an interesting question to ask how much vacuum the breather port on the air box supplies, and how much vacuum it takes to provide a noticeable difference to the overall performance of the piston rings.
I found this in a magazine article about a 900+HP big-block Chevy:

The primary function of a beltdriven vacuum pump is to stabilize the piston rings so there is only pressure on one side of the compression ring, as well as to reduce crankcase windage for better oil control (more power). The vacuum pump creates an atmosphere inside the crankcase ranging anywhere from 13 to 15 inches of vacuum on a wet sump (higher on dry-sump systems) and literally sucks out any blow-by inside the crankcase to promote a better ring-to-cylinder-wall seal. Conventional engines that don't utilize a vacuum pump generally have pressure on both sides of the rings, which not only hinders the ability of the rings to seal against the cylinder wall, but also poses resistance to descending pistons, robbing more power. It's important to note that while many applications can benefit from a vacuum pump, it's best suited to attempting to extract every last bit of power, and can be worth up to 20 additional ponies.

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Offline cameron

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Re: Airbox out?pods in......Where to w the breather tube...?
« Reply #34 on: September 25, 2011, 08:47:34 PM »
Im also no expert. A friend of mine came up with that idea.
He IS an expert, however, and the plugs chop even.
Sync is good, we just had to mix-adjust a little to make up for the blowback. IIIRC, it was literally like a 16th of a turn.
Splitting to all 4 would be perfect, but more trouble than its worth, IMO!
1976 CB550F