Author Topic: weird electrical field around bike when running and blinker issue (video)  (Read 7356 times)

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Offline timdhawk

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1978 CB750k first day or two of engine running after a rebuild. I have not rode it yet.
So heres the video:
Weird voltage

It only does this when running. (the multimeter probes are in my hands and not attached to anything.)
Also when running, my blinkers blink fast and in a random pattern until my RPM's hit 2000, then they blink fine. 1900 weird blinking 2000 normal blinking. When the bike is not running, they blink normal as well.
The electricals have been upgraded. here's what I have:
-Shorai Battery
-single Reg/rect
-Dyna 3ohm coils
-Hondamans coil resistor pack
-new starter relay
-Headlight relays
-LED blinker unit
-LED blinkers
-LED idiot lights
everything else that I can think of is stock.




Why the weird electrical field when running and why the blinkers only work right at 2000 rpms and above?
« Last Edit: September 27, 2011, 10:48:38 AM by timdhawk »
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Offline scottly

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Re: weird electrical field around bike when running and blinker issue (video)
« Reply #1 on: September 27, 2011, 10:56:50 AM »
Digital meters are extremely sensitive. The open leads are acting like antenna, picking up electrical noise. As far as the blinkers, check the voltage at the battery with the motor running at different RPMs. 
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Offline Duke McDukiedook

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Re: weird electrical field around bike when running and blinker issue (video)
« Reply #2 on: September 27, 2011, 11:08:46 AM »
You might not have enough voltage below 2K to actuate the blinkers properly. Check your voltage like Scottly said.
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Offline timdhawk

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Re: weird electrical field around bike when running and blinker issue (video)
« Reply #3 on: September 27, 2011, 12:21:53 PM »
I would love to check the voltage but I can't even get within 2-3 feet of the bike without the multimeter going whacky! That ain't normal. I have a craftsman that I have had for years and I have never had an issue like this before. I changed the batter out as well in it (multimeter, not bike) and it still does this only when the bike is running.
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Offline scottly

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Re: weird electrical field around bike when running and blinker issue (video)
« Reply #4 on: September 27, 2011, 12:26:40 PM »
Does the meter go wacky when the leads are connected to the battery?
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Offline buffaloejon

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Re: weird electrical field around bike when running and blinker issue (video)
« Reply #5 on: September 27, 2011, 12:27:12 PM »
I would love to check the voltage but I can't even get within 2-3 feet of the bike without the multimeter going whacky! That ain't normal. I have a craftsman that I have had for years and I have never had an issue like this before. I changed the batter out as well in it (multimeter, not bike) and it still does this only when the bike is running.

Try grounding out the bike with a hard ground, a building or something, and see if it goes away. It should. In that case, check all the ground connections on the bike, something is making a lot of electrical noise.
Engineers like to solve problems. If there are no problems handily available, they will create their own problems.

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Offline TwoTired

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Re: weird electrical field around bike when running and blinker issue (video)
« Reply #6 on: September 27, 2011, 12:31:46 PM »
Are there any resistors in the spark lead circuit?  Resistor plugs, resistor caps, resistance leads?
Is the turn relay of the "electronic" type"

Most likely you have some electromagnetic radiation emanating from a region near your nethers.  Could maybe make your swimmers "confused".

Anyway, set your meter to the lowest ACV scale, and measure across the battery posts. Record and report the reading.

Cheers,
Lloyd... (SOHC4 #11 Original Mail List)
72 500, 74 550, 75 550K, 75 550F, 76 550F, 77 550F X2, 78 550K, 77 750F X2, 78 750F, 79CX500, 85 700SC, GL1100

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Offline timdhawk

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Re: weird electrical field around bike when running and blinker issue (video)
« Reply #7 on: September 27, 2011, 01:05:17 PM »
Are there any resistors in the spark lead circuit?  Resistor plugs, resistor caps, resistance leads?
Is the turn relay of the "electronic" type"

Most likely you have some electromagnetic radiation emanating from a region near your nethers.  Could maybe make your swimmers "confused".

Anyway, set your meter to the lowest ACV scale, and measure across the battery posts. Record and report the reading.

Cheers,

TT,
No resistors that Im aware of: plugs are NGK D8EA's, wires are copper core wires from Dyna.
ALso, can you explain "ACV scale"? Is that Alternating current voltage?
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Offline Duke McDukiedook

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Re: weird electrical field around bike when running and blinker issue (video)
« Reply #8 on: September 27, 2011, 01:21:18 PM »
If you have just copper dyna wires without resistor end caps that is probably why you are having the RFI.
Get some NGK resistor caps and this will help cut down on the RFI.
"Well, Mr. Carpetbagger. We got somethin' in this territory called the Missouri boat ride."   Josey Wales

"It's Baltimore, gentlemen. The gods will not save you." Ervin Burrell

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Offline phil71

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Re: weird electrical field around bike when running and blinker issue (video)
« Reply #9 on: September 27, 2011, 01:26:37 PM »
that radiated static noise is not something you need to worry about. Get us some numbers at the battery, off, then running at idle, then at 2500rpm.
LED blinker units are governed by a little timing chip that shouldn't be able to change speed unless there's some SERIOUS voltage swings.

Offline TwoTired

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Re: weird electrical field around bike when running and blinker issue (video)
« Reply #10 on: September 27, 2011, 01:47:42 PM »
TT,
No resistors that Im aware of: plugs are NGK D8EA's, wires are copper core wires from Dyna.
Are you sure the Dyna leads are wire core copper?
Anyway, you should have some resistance in the spark output circuit.  Resistor plugs, Resistor plug caps, or resistance wire.  Any one of these will reduce radiation.  You need about 5KΩ per lead.

ALso, can you explain "ACV scale"? Is that Alternating current voltage?
Yes.  Isn't the the marking on your meter's function knob?
Lloyd... (SOHC4 #11 Original Mail List)
72 500, 74 550, 75 550K, 75 550F, 76 550F, 77 550F X2, 78 550K, 77 750F X2, 78 750F, 79CX500, 85 700SC, GL1100

Those that learn from history are doomed to repeat it by those that don't learn from history.

Offline timdhawk

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Re: weird electrical field around bike when running and blinker issue (video)
« Reply #11 on: September 27, 2011, 02:39:30 PM »
Phil71 - I can't get any #'s when it's running, that's part of the problem.

TT - On the Shorai battery, the ACV was 24.2v or maybe 24.6v I think. Is that a range that makes sense? I've never checked an AC reading on a DC battery before, that's why I was curious.
The wires are copper core.  Dyna 7mm silicone copper core wires. From a recent post I did a month or so ago, i asked about copper core wires vs. resistance wires. The consensus was copper core. My understanding is/was that our bikes don't have all the modern circuitry so we don't need the resistance protection of resistor caps, wire and plugs. Do I have that wrong?
 
For troubleshooting reason, I switched from the more technical Shorai battery to a more simple "normal" bike battery and I still get the RFI. However with the normal battery, the blinkers work fine. I have had an issue with the (new) Shorai battery holding a charge since running it down trying to start the bike last month when i had the carb issues. So the blinker issue is battery related.

Were there any other readings needed that I missed?

Am i correct in remembering that our bikes don't charge the battery below 1500-2000 rpms?
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Offline Duke McDukiedook

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Re: weird electrical field around bike when running and blinker issue (video)
« Reply #12 on: September 27, 2011, 02:55:36 PM »
The stock setup on these bikes were with copper core wires from the coils to resistor caps to the spark plugs, you would want resistor caps to match stock and cut down on the RFI.
"Well, Mr. Carpetbagger. We got somethin' in this territory called the Missouri boat ride."   Josey Wales

"It's Baltimore, gentlemen. The gods will not save you." Ervin Burrell

CB750 K3 crat | (2) 1986 VFR750F

Offline phil71

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Re: weird electrical field around bike when running and blinker issue (video)
« Reply #13 on: September 27, 2011, 03:04:51 PM »
they do charge a little below that rpm. Also, once you put a solid state reg/rect, all that changes anyway. Sounds like you sent that Shorai to battery heaven.. those things aren't very robust in adverse conditions.

Offline TwoTired

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Re: weird electrical field around bike when running and blinker issue (video)
« Reply #14 on: September 27, 2011, 04:11:07 PM »
TT - On the Shorai battery, the ACV was 24.2v or maybe 24.6v I think. Is that a range that makes sense? I've never checked an AC reading on a DC battery before, that's why I was curious.
That's pretty horrid if true.  Better tell me what ACV scale you used.  Millivolts is quite different from volts.  Hopefully, this is just some unfamiliarity with your testing device.

The wires are copper core.  Dyna 7mm silicone copper core wires. From a recent post I did a month or so ago, i asked about copper core wires vs. resistance wires. The consensus was copper core. My understanding is/was that our bikes don't have all the modern circuitry so we don't need the resistance protection of resistor caps, wire and plugs. Do I have that wrong?
It will still spark without the resistance,  But the spark will be very short and draw a lot of current.  Both the spark electrodes suffer, and the draw from the electrical system will be higher.  Quite simply, you just don't need that.  The in line resistance lengthens the spark event to more thoroughly ignite the mixture, and it reduces the depth of coil discharge for more rapid recharging on the next storage cycle  (this is highly dependent/interactive with the triggering device.   There is no good reason to run without inline resistance. The extra current draw just radiates power externally which does you no good, and can harm or disturb nearby electronic devices.  Outlaws like this, but then outlaws sometimes pay for their desires.
 
For troubleshooting reason, I switched from the more technical Shorai battery to a more simple "normal" bike battery and I still get the RFI. However with the normal battery, the blinkers work fine. I have had an issue with the (new) Shorai battery holding a charge since running it down trying to start the bike last month when i had the carb issues. So the blinker issue is battery related.
The technology this battery uses is quite intolerant of low voltage, or draining too far.  Draining this battery to or below 8V invites permanent internal damage to the battery.    If you were truly applying 24V AC to the battery for any length of time, it is quite doubtful it would survive.  I might even fear some sort of exothermic reaction.

Am i correct in remembering that our bikes don't charge the battery below 1500-2000 rpms?
It's pretty dependent on the load the bike presents to battery and charging system.
The stock bike draws about 120 Watts (10 Amps) with the key and lighting on. While the CB750 alternator is capable of making 210 Watts, it doesn't do so at 1000RPM.   If you can believe the Honda manual, there is a 6.5 Amp deficit at 1000 RPM.  Which means the alternator is only putting out 40-50 Watts at 1000 RPM, while the bike is still demanding 120 Watts.  The power difference is made up by the battery until depleted, whereupon spark wanes.

3 ohm coils and a Dyna ignition will nearly double the ignition power draw at all RPMS.  Lighting changes can increase power draw as well.

Cheers,
Lloyd... (SOHC4 #11 Original Mail List)
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Offline phil71

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Re: weird electrical field around bike when running and blinker issue (video)
« Reply #15 on: September 27, 2011, 04:15:57 PM »
Why exactly are we reading ACv numbers?

Offline Spiider

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Re: weird electrical field around bike when running and blinker issue (video)
« Reply #16 on: September 27, 2011, 05:36:42 PM »
AC shows up in a DC circuit as noise.

Ideally a DC circuit shouldn't have any AC...

Offline Don R

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Re: weird electrical field around bike when running and blinker issue (video)
« Reply #17 on: September 27, 2011, 05:44:42 PM »
dude,  that bike is haunted. I'd call ghostbusters.
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Offline phil71

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Re: weird electrical field around bike when running and blinker issue (video)
« Reply #18 on: September 27, 2011, 05:58:17 PM »
Splider.. a voltmeter will still show a reading on a dc battery, it will just be grossly inaccurate. It will show a voltage, just not stable. If that bike were making 24 ac volts, there'd be bigger problems than he's having.

Offline TwoTired

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Re: weird electrical field around bike when running and blinker issue (video)
« Reply #19 on: September 27, 2011, 06:08:58 PM »
The stock battery damps system noise and voltage variation effectively.  The Shorai battery is physically smaller with considerably less plate area.  The plates are what absorb system transient changes.  When loads drop out and then on the DC level changes, same with when the charging system switches on and off.  The battery is expected even this out, or at least tolerate the transient voltage changes.  Using ACV, you can measure the transient changes which ride on a the DC level in the system.  When you transition into the realm of AC, however, you also have to deal with time periods.
In the real world, our bikes aren't strictly DC in operation, they have variations in system voltage, which can be described as an AC component within a DC system.  What IS required is that the AC variation either be at very low amplitudes or have extremely long time time components.
Most hand held meters are calibrated to accurately measure in the 50-60Hz range.  AC potentials ocuring over, say hour time periods, won't register, unless some sort of peak hold circuit is employed in the test device.

The alternator is an AC device delivering 3 phases of Sine waves at frequencies variable with RPM.  While the phases do have some overlap, the rectifier does nothing to smooth out the DC output.  It's the battery that is expected to make the DC level smooth.  If it is NOT doing that job adequately, it will show up as excessive AC voltage riding on the DC average level.  Of course if the rectifier has shorted diodes, the AC would be impressed onto the DC system as well.

A full 24 VAC at the battery would lead me to scrutinize the rectifier, at least.

Cheers,

Lloyd... (SOHC4 #11 Original Mail List)
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Offline phil71

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Re: weird electrical field around bike when running and blinker issue (video)
« Reply #20 on: September 27, 2011, 06:19:16 PM »
TwoTired... that was AWESOME

Offline timdhawk

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Re: weird electrical field around bike when running and blinker issue (video)
« Reply #21 on: September 27, 2011, 07:30:05 PM »
TT - my meter only has a "750" and "200" in the VAC section. The numbers i mentioned were done on the 200 setting. I only have a basic knowledge and understanding of electricity.
I am feeling more certain that that battery is indeed toast. I now have a "normal" battery rigged up to use while problem solving my electrical gremilns. Fortunately I haven't let any smoke out yet... so all is not lost.

With a normal battery in place, where should I start looking again and what numbers from what source would be useful to know. Should I get some resistor caps, or would using resistor plug wires without resistor caps help? Or would both be better?

Please bear with me as I know enough about electronics to go in directions I'm told but not nearly enough to see or understand the big picture...
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Offline scottly

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Re: weird electrical field around bike when running and blinker issue (video)
« Reply #22 on: September 27, 2011, 07:33:28 PM »
Measure the DC voltage across the battery with the motor running.
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Offline timdhawk

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Re: weird electrical field around bike when running and blinker issue (video)
« Reply #23 on: September 27, 2011, 07:47:19 PM »
Measure the DC voltage across the battery with the motor running.

As stated already my freind, I can't get any readings from the bike while its running. I can't hold my meter within 3 ft of the bike while running without the numbers going crazy like in the video.
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Offline DavePhipps

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Re: weird electrical field around bike when running and blinker issue (video)
« Reply #24 on: September 27, 2011, 08:11:04 PM »
Buy a cheap analog meter from your nearest auto parts store and see if you can get a reading from that while it's running.
Make sure it has all the readings you'll need, multiple Ohm, ACV, and DCV scales are very handy.
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