Author Topic: hard cafe  (Read 5712 times)

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Offline Retro Rocket

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Re: hard cafe
« Reply #25 on: October 06, 2011, 04:20:37 AM »
so changing all this stuff does it even handle and ride good?

I suggest you ask the person who rides it.  Since it's his bike, and he is a rather seasoned rider, I'm sure he knows better than anyone else.   Ask shaunzo

Its not too hard to see that the front end has changed the trail and will cause the front to be more reactive or nervous and the longer {much longer} swingarm will give it straight line stability but slow down how it reacts in a corner, so it sort of contradicts itself as far as handling goes.

I'll add that i am not hanging #$%* on it, i just don't like the way its put together, nothing personal..
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mrjack55

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Re: hard cafe
« Reply #26 on: October 06, 2011, 05:40:21 AM »
so changing all this stuff does it even handle and ride good?

I suggest you ask the person who rides it.  Since it's his bike, and he is a rather seasoned rider, I'm sure he knows better than anyone else.   Ask shaunzo

Its not too hard to see that the front end has changed the trail and will cause the front to be more reactive or nervous and the longer {much longer} swingarm will give it straight line stability but slow down how it reacts in a corner, so it sort of contradicts itself as far as handling goes.

I'll add that i am not hanging #$%* on it, i just don't like the way its put together, nothing personal..

Nothing personal either.  I have no doubt that you know your $^!t.  I just figured, if I want to know something about the horse, I'm going to ask the jockey not the bookie.  ;) 

Rock on!

Offline Retro Rocket

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Re: hard cafe
« Reply #27 on: October 06, 2011, 03:38:38 PM »
Actually Shaunzo said somewhere in another post that he "fluked it" because it handles well, so i suppose he both agrees and disagrees..... ;D ;)
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Offline MidnightLamp

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Re: hard cafe
« Reply #28 on: October 06, 2011, 03:44:18 PM »
Its not too hard to see that the front end has changed the trail and will cause the front to be more reactive or nervous and the longer {much longer} swingarm will give it straight line stability but slow down how it reacts in a corner, so it sort of contradicts itself as far as handling goes.

The tree offset would be closer to 25-35mm on a modern USD front end, and even with the height change up front due to shorter forks most swaps end up with a higher trail than the factory setup. The front end would handle slower.
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Offline Retro Rocket

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Re: hard cafe
« Reply #29 on: October 06, 2011, 04:00:04 PM »
Its not too hard to see that the front end has changed the trail and will cause the front to be more reactive or nervous and the longer {much longer} swingarm will give it straight line stability but slow down how it reacts in a corner, so it sort of contradicts itself as far as handling goes.

The tree offset would be closer to 25-35mm on a modern USD front end, and even with the height change up front due to shorter forks most swaps end up with a higher trail than the factory setup. The front end would handle slower.

And that was what i initially thought, but i have spoken to Terry {his friend has something similar} and a couple of other guys that have done something similar and it was in fact, quite the opposite, making the bike fall into corners quickly, taking the rider by surprise. I think in that case, the guy still used a stock length swingarm.... 50-60mm is a far better offset for these bikes....
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Offline MidnightLamp

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Re: hard cafe
« Reply #30 on: October 06, 2011, 05:33:19 PM »
It's usually the tires. If you run just the GSXR front end with a 26" Nom. D tire, you'll be looking at an effective trail of about 4.8 and an effective rake of about 26*. If you run it with a ~23.5" Nom. D tire (such as the GSXR wheel itself), your effective rake is between 25-26, and your trail sits at a little lower than 4. That's not a great geometry to have with a stock rear geometry at all.

As for a monoshock, it's not terrible difficult to figure out a good motion ratio/linkage setup, as the modelling is rather easy. The trick is finding the correct damper, and not just "welding in a mount" and "sourcing a shock from a sportbike" like most do.

If I come off as patronizing, I don't mean it, it's just purely for information sake!
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Offline Retro Rocket

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Re: hard cafe
« Reply #31 on: October 06, 2011, 05:53:08 PM »
Quote
If I come off as patronizing, I don't mean it, it's just purely for information sake!

No not at all, this is good discussion, i quite often come across as patronizing as well but thats not what i am trying to do at all.
The problem with most monoshock conversions i see is that the wrong swingarm is used, there are some very compact mono shock designs but most i see used are extremely long and detract from the over all compact design of the bike. I considered going mono but after doing some measurements decided to cut out the monoshock section and shorten the arm so it is a little over an inch longer and now runs twin shocks. I am also having some 50mm offset clamps mad up to stay close to the stock geometry, "F" models used this offset...
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Offline MidnightLamp

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Re: hard cafe
« Reply #32 on: October 06, 2011, 07:05:54 PM »
Yeah, most of the mono builds I've seen have removing all of the linkages and welding a mount at the most significant point of the frame (varies depending on the frame, but people ususally go the front of the seat mount or behind. Doing all of that negates most everything you'd use one for. With a twin setup, you really can't go too wrong, as long as the shock angles don't become too extreme. It's the rising rate nature of using a longer arm with further back mounts (such as the DOHC arm on a SOHC 750) IMO that can make the handling feel funny. I like the stock rear geometry (but the rear swingarm flex can be a little iffy at the track) and have kept mine as is, but a little extension would be fine especially if you can get a nice box section aluminum arm for the effort.

Are you running a K? If so, that should handle really nicely, but watch for the neck angle, because the early frames have 27.17* of rake vs the later (@28.17*). With the gsxr frames, you loose some fork length, and unless you plan on dropping the rears, you're looking at an effective rake of a degree or two lower than the frame rake. 1 degree is probably fine, but 2 or more and you'll get a damn twitchy bike, especially if your tire is smaller than 25.5" nom D.
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Offline Retro Rocket

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Re: hard cafe
« Reply #33 on: October 06, 2011, 07:46:14 PM »
Quote
Are you running a K? If so, that should handle really nicely, but watch for the neck angle, because the early frames have 27.17* of rake vs the later (@28.17*). With the gsxr frames, you loose some fork length, and unless you plan on dropping the rears, you're looking at an effective rake of a degree or two lower than the frame rake. 1 degree is probably fine, but 2 or more and you'll get a damn twitchy bike, especially if your tire is smaller than 25.5" nom D.

You are spot on {correct} I have had some 2 inch extensions made for the upper part of the tubes and also had the internal rod extended to retain the adjustment for spring preload. The extensions screw into the existing tubes and once all clamped up is the same height as stock, didn't want it any lower than stock, also using custom front hubs for an 18 inch front wheel with spokes...
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Offline scottly

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Re: hard cafe
« Reply #34 on: October 06, 2011, 08:01:18 PM »
Remember, you are looking at an unladen bike in the pic. With a rider aboard, the rear of the bike will sag.
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Offline Retro Rocket

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Re: hard cafe
« Reply #35 on: October 06, 2011, 08:08:58 PM »
Remember, you are looking at an unladen bike in the pic. With a rider aboard, the rear of the bike will sag.

At 48 i am starting to feel this sag you speak of.... ;D ;)
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Offline scottly

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Re: hard cafe
« Reply #36 on: October 06, 2011, 08:24:33 PM »
LOL!
Don't fix it if it ain't broke!
Helmets save brains. Always wear one and ride like everyone is trying to kill you....

mrjack55

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Re: hard cafe
« Reply #37 on: October 07, 2011, 06:41:17 AM »
Yeah, most of the mono builds I've seen have removing all of the linkages and welding a mount at the most significant point of the frame (varies depending on the frame, but people ususally go the front of the seat mount or behind. Doing all of that negates most everything you'd use one for. With a twin setup, you really can't go too wrong, as long as the shock angles don't become too extreme. It's the rising rate nature of using a longer arm with further back mounts (such as the DOHC arm on a SOHC 750) IMO that can make the handling feel funny. I like the stock rear geometry (but the rear swingarm flex can be a little iffy at the track) and have kept mine as is, but a little extension would be fine especially if you can get a nice box section aluminum arm for the effort.

Are you running a K? If so, that should handle really nicely, but watch for the neck angle, because the early frames have 27.17* of rake vs the later (@28.17*). With the gsxr frames, you loose some fork length, and unless you plan on dropping the rears, you're looking at an effective rake of a degree or two lower than the frame rake. 1 degree is probably fine, but 2 or more and you'll get a damn twitchy bike, especially if your tire is smaller than 25.5" nom D.

I'm beginning to get a sense that you guys may be able to help me.  If you don't mind that is?
If I was to run a F3 CBR600 swing arm in a K7 what would your recommendations be?  I know the K7 is longer than the K0-6, but I also know it's swing arm is not as long as the one from the F3.  I paid for a complete F3 swing arm (shock, linkage included) on feeBay.  I say payed for, not bought, because it's been over a week, and it hasn't been shipped yet.  I want to use the mono shock set up, and was wonder about the geometry.  Midnight, what do you feel is the best mounting point for the shock?  Rocket, I get the idea that you prefer the twin shock set up over a mono conversion.  What's your take on it?   

I'm planning on running the stock forks with Race Tech springs and emulators, so no worries about changes in rake.  I should be able to keep the trail pretty close to stock.  I may have to lower the bike a little as I'm vertically challenged.  I'll know more once I get the swing arm and mock things up and take measurements.

Thanks for the help guys.   

Offline Retro Rocket

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Re: hard cafe
« Reply #38 on: October 07, 2011, 03:15:22 PM »
Hi Mrjack55, the reason i use twin shocks is because the frame is already set up that way, i am also going for a modified stock look rather than building custom oil tanks and so on.  These old frames aren't that strong and i brace mine so they don't flex as much, but  they weren't really designed to have the suspension forces placed any where else. I know it has been done plenty of times before but it just does not sit that comfortably with me in my situation. If i were to highly modify the frame then it would be ok but i want twin shocks to keep the look as close to stock as possible whilst upgrading almost everything....... {not that easy to do}   ;D ;)
Its also fairly hard to find a monoshock arm that is similar in dimensions to the stock set up, they are usually 6-8 or even more longer than stock, which is fine on the highway but not so good in the twisties....  Shock angles can be increased, i have somewhere an article Yoshimura wrote about his changes to suspension geometry on his GS1000 race bikes, he altered the angle quite significantly to help the bikes handle well, which of course he achieved....  If i can find the article i'll post a link....  {computer died and i lost a lot of stuff ::)}
Hope that helped in some way.
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If You can't fix it with a hammer, You've got an electrical problem.

mrjack55

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Re: hard cafe
« Reply #39 on: October 08, 2011, 08:09:46 AM »
Hi Mrjack55, the reason i use twin shocks is because the frame is already set up that way, i am also going for a modified stock look rather than building custom oil tanks and so on.  These old frames aren't that strong and i brace mine so they don't flex as much, but  they weren't really designed to have the suspension forces placed any where else. I know it has been done plenty of times before but it just does not sit that comfortably with me in my situation. If i were to highly modify the frame then it would be ok but i want twin shocks to keep the look as close to stock as possible whilst upgrading almost everything....... {not that easy to do}   ;D ;)
Its also fairly hard to find a monoshock arm that is similar in dimensions to the stock set up, they are usually 6-8 or even more longer than stock, which is fine on the highway but not so good in the twisties....  Shock angles can be increased, i have somewhere an article Yoshimura wrote about his changes to suspension geometry on his GS1000 race bikes, he altered the angle quite significantly to help the bikes handle well, which of course he achieved....  If i can find the article i'll post a link....  {computer died and i lost a lot of stuff ::)}
Hope that helped in some way.

Thanks Rocket, that was helpful.  I'm trying to not get wrapped up in modifications for modification sake.  In other words no, looks cool, runs/rides like poop!  I'm really trying to figure out what direction I want to go with this build. 
« Last Edit: October 09, 2011, 05:53:31 AM by mrjack55 »

Offline 65Ch3v3LL3

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Re: hard cafe
« Reply #40 on: October 08, 2011, 07:58:04 PM »
I suppose I could be guilty of following the "fad" by you guys. I personally mod everything I own, cars, trucks, bikes, even an ex-wife LOL. I like the styling but I'm pretty much doing my own thing on mine. I too am doing the USD forks simply because I like the look and the better brakes and suspension that the modern front end offers. I plan on closely measuring my rake and trail so that I can keep it as close to stock as possible. On the rear I just ordered a GSXR swingarm but I plan on running dual shocks with spring rates made for a bike of that size. As far as the original bike posted in this thread it really isn't my cup of tea either but I do appreciate the amount of work and fabrication that went into it. Good fab work is admirable to me even if I don't like the over all aesthetic. Hopefully you guys don't bust on my build too much but even if you do I'm sure I will still enjoy riding it.

Tim
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Offline Retro Rocket

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Re: hard cafe
« Reply #41 on: October 08, 2011, 08:03:01 PM »
Quote
I personally mod everything I own, , even an ex-wife LOL

Pics or it didn't happen..... ;D ;)
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Offline 65Ch3v3LL3

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Re: hard cafe
« Reply #42 on: October 10, 2011, 09:06:35 PM »
Quote
I personally mod everything I own, , even an ex-wife LOL

Pics or it didn't happen..... ;D ;)

LOL, sadly she got the pics in the divorce and I didn't even get visitation rights after I paid for them!!!
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Offline Retro Rocket

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Re: hard cafe
« Reply #43 on: October 10, 2011, 10:36:51 PM »
 ;D ;D ;D ;)
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