Author Topic: Further Adventures of the Missing 6th Gear  (Read 17896 times)

0 Members and 2 Guests are viewing this topic.

Offline breezy

  • Full Member
  • *
  • Posts: 64
    • Artist's Portfolio
Re: Further Adventures of the Missing 6th Gear
« Reply #100 on: October 19, 2011, 03:21:20 PM »
An internal combustion engine is a heat engine not a Carnot heat engine.
Quote from: wikipedia
A Carnot heat engine[2] is a hypothetical engine that operates on the reversible Carnot cycle. The basic model for this engine was developed by Nicolas Léonard Sadi Carnot in 1824. The Carnot engine model was graphically expanded upon by Benoît Paul Émile Clapeyron in 1834 and mathematically elaborated upon by Rudolf Clausius in the 1850s and 60s from which the concept of entropy emerged.

Quote

So you are saying all the engines you have worked on are hypothetical, because it is not actually possible to build a carnot heat engine. 

Quote
In general an engine converts energy to mechanical work. Heat engines distinguish themselves from other types of engines by the fact that their efficiency is fundamentally limited by Carnot's theorem.[3] Although this efficiency limitation can be a drawback, an advantage of heat engines is that most forms of energy can be easily converted to heat by processes like exothermic reactions (such as combustion), absorption of light or energetic particles, friction, dissipation and resistance. Since the heat source that supplies thermal energy to the engine can thus be powered by virtually any kind of energy, heat engines are very versatile and have a wide range of applicability.
Quote

Quote

Throttle position doesn't indicate rpm btw, only load,


It certainly can indicate rpm, tho not as accurately as a tach.  You can't tell me there's no relationship between engine speed and throttle position, taking load into consideration.  It can indicate rpms accurately enough for this discussion which is trying to get to the bottom of a large problem in gear ratios.

Quote

a poorly tuned engine can be on WOT yet only be doing 3-4k, so that means jack, everything you have said points to a poorly tuned motor which is running out of power as the load comes on, it may have plenty of power down low but is probably dropping a cylinder or 2 as the revs come up.


What would be your response if I posted a video of the bike with the speedo reading 60mph and the tach reading 8500k and you heard all 5 gear shifts?

Quote

 I would like to see one of your POS veedubs


The VW aircooled motor is the greatest achievement of Western Civilization, it's why God put man on this planet.

Quote

doing 9000rpm, these engines can do it with ease, providing they are tuned right, but seeing as you have it figured out and know exactly what you are doing carve into the engine cases chuck a bigger gear on the front and see if you can even get it to move, let alone improve the top speed.   And on that note I'm out, enjoy destroying your bike ;D

Well, dude, you ain't half as frustrated as I am.

Offline jneuf

  • Hot Shot
  • ***
  • Posts: 522
Re: Further Adventures of the Missing 6th Gear
« Reply #101 on: October 19, 2011, 03:21:29 PM »
Okay, I'll throw my hat in the ring one more time...

Since you're waiting on a new tach cable, I'm going to ignore the RPM thing all together...

Are you 100% sure that your throttle is opening all the way?
'75 CB400f

Offline Grabcon

  • Hot Shot
  • ***
  • Posts: 354
Re: Further Adventures of the Missing 6th Gear
« Reply #102 on: October 19, 2011, 03:24:52 PM »
Okay this is an interesting but frustrating thread. First does the bike shift through all gears? At 10mph in first gear is your motor screaming and tach pegged to the limit? Are you sure you are in fifth gear?

Below is a link where you can select your bike and it will give you speed and RPM. It will also allow you to change sprocket sizes.

try this to help diagnose the issue.

http://www.gearingcommander.com/
CB750   1974 - Gone
CB750F 1976 - Gone :(
CB550   1978 - Gone & now back
CB900F 1981 - Gone
ST1100 1991 - Gone
ST1100 2000 - Gone
VFR800 2008 - Gone
ST1300 2008 - Gone
BMW F700GS - Wife's
VFR1200X 2016 - Mine

Offline breezy

  • Full Member
  • *
  • Posts: 64
    • Artist's Portfolio
Re: Further Adventures of the Missing 6th Gear
« Reply #103 on: October 19, 2011, 03:24:59 PM »
Okay, I'll throw my hat in the ring one more time...

Since you're waiting on a new tach cable, I'm going to ignore the RPM thing all together...

Are you 100% sure that your throttle is opening all the way?

Good point.   That sort of comment is helpful.  Pretty sure.  I'll check it again and get back to the group.

Offline breezy

  • Full Member
  • *
  • Posts: 64
    • Artist's Portfolio
Re: Further Adventures of the Missing 6th Gear
« Reply #104 on: October 19, 2011, 03:29:58 PM »
Okay this is an interesting but frustrating thread. First does the bike shift through all gears? At 10mph in first gear is your motor screaming and tach pegged to the limit? Are you sure you are in fifth gear?


Quote

Thanks, yes I counted the gears many times, not believing that it could be maxed out at those speeds.  That's what got the comics indo derision mode to begin with, I thought the bike was missing a 6th gear cuz I read the Haynes manual and took the gear specs for the 400 to be for the 550.  The Haynes manual covers both.


Quote

Below is a link where you can select your bike and it will give you speed and RPM. It will also allow you to change sprocket sizes.

try this to help diagnose the issue.

http://www.gearingcommander.com/

Many thanks, I'll check it out.

Offline Duke McDukiedook

  • Space Force 6 Star General
  • Really Old Timer ...
  • *******
  • Posts: 12,690
  • Wish? Did somebody say wish?
Re: Further Adventures of the Missing 6th Gear
« Reply #105 on: October 19, 2011, 03:46:12 PM »
Holy #$%*, I never knew we all were riding theoretical thermodynamic cycles!

I learn new stuff evuryday!! ;D
"Well, Mr. Carpetbagger. We got somethin' in this territory called the Missouri boat ride."   Josey Wales

"It's Baltimore, gentlemen. The gods will not save you." Ervin Burrell

CB750 K3 crat | (2) 1986 VFR750F

Offline Hush

  • Finally they realise that I am an
  • Really Old Timer ...
  • *******
  • Posts: 6,761
  • "Lady, I've heard it all before"!
Re: Further Adventures of the Missing 6th Gear
« Reply #106 on: October 19, 2011, 06:10:58 PM »
I had a rather perplexing problem like this on my 650 when I first got it running, at speed it would suddenly slow down for no good reason.
Turned out the accelerator twist grip was slowly rotating under the rubber outer so while I'm screwing the ring out of the bike the throttle is actually fslipping back to stop!
Some glue fixed that but i know Kit had the same problem.
I think the thing I most like about motorcycling is the speed at which my brain must process information at to avoid the numb skulls who are eating pies, playing the ukulele, applying make-up etc in the comfort of their airconditioned armchairs as they make random attempts to kill me!!!!!!!

Offline 750cafe

  • Hot Shot
  • ***
  • Posts: 607
Re: Further Adventures of the Missing 6th Gear
« Reply #107 on: October 19, 2011, 09:58:09 PM »
If he is running points ignition and his condensers took a crap,
it could scream along and barely go.
But, he says that he can pop wheelies.



Eric

Is there anything more fun than riding? They are between your legs and are quiet when you turn them off.

Offline Retro Rocket

  • Eggs are hard due too a
  • Really Old Timer ...
  • *******
  • Posts: 19,279
  • ROCK & ROLL
Re: Further Adventures of the Missing 6th Gear
« Reply #108 on: October 20, 2011, 12:46:55 AM »
Quote
34 tooth final drive sprocket on my 550 that came stock with a 37 tooth sprocket and why.

Whats that got to do with anything..?  Your revs would be lower at any given speed with this set up, putting a bigger front sprocket on will NOT help, putting a bigger front sprocket is the same as putting a smaller rear on which you already have. Your bike would "scream" even more if you put a much bigger sprocket on the rear. That should be brutally obvious to any mechanic....
750 K2 1000cc
750 F1 970cc
750 Bitsa 900cc
If You can't fix it with a hammer, You've got an electrical problem.

Offline bryanj

  • Really Old Timer ...
  • *******
  • Posts: 13,973
  • CB500 Number 1000036
Re: Further Adventures of the Missing 6th Gear
« Reply #109 on: October 20, 2011, 12:58:12 AM »
34 tooth is standard on the 500 and was probably fitted as that was all that was available
Semi Geriatric ex-Honda mechanic and MOT tester (UK version of annual inspection). Garage full of "projects" mostly 500/4 from pre 73 (no road tax in UK).

Remember "Its always in the last place you look" COURSE IT IS YOU STOP LOOKIN THEN!

Offline Frostyboy

  • Retired: Never was an
  • Expert
  • ****
  • Posts: 1,227
  • Circa 1951
Re: Further Adventures of the Missing 6th Gear
« Reply #110 on: October 20, 2011, 07:13:02 AM »
This bike had a 74 tooth rear sprocket and a 17 tooth front sprocket.  What is your guess at why someone would put a 34 tooth sprocket on the back of a stock (non racing) setup?

Really?? 74 tooth rear?
« Last Edit: October 20, 2011, 07:19:24 AM by Frostyboy »
Last year I joined a support group for procrastinators.
We haven't met yet.
[CB550F1]

Offline Rigid

  • She likes a
  • Expert
  • ****
  • Posts: 821
  • Speak from personal experience, or don't
    • KingCustomCycles
Re: Further Adventures of the Missing 6th Gear
« Reply #111 on: October 23, 2011, 01:18:14 PM »
The fat, uh, lady? has sung on this one.
36 years of this stuff, here to help.

Offline TwoTired

  • Really Old Timer ...
  • *******
  • Posts: 21,805
Re: Further Adventures of the Missing 6th Gear
« Reply #112 on: October 23, 2011, 01:33:01 PM »
The fat, uh, lady? has sung on this one.
Dunno about others.  I simply gave up.  Can't help some people.
Lloyd... (SOHC4 #11 Original Mail List)
72 500, 74 550, 75 550K, 75 550F, 76 550F, 77 550F X2, 78 550K, 77 750F X2, 78 750F, 79CX500, 85 700SC, GL1100

Those that learn from history are doomed to repeat it by those that don't learn from history.

Offline Hush

  • Finally they realise that I am an
  • Really Old Timer ...
  • *******
  • Posts: 6,761
  • "Lady, I've heard it all before"!
Re: Further Adventures of the Missing 6th Gear
« Reply #113 on: October 23, 2011, 02:14:12 PM »
That's a shame I hate a mystery that isn't solved! :(
I think the thing I most like about motorcycling is the speed at which my brain must process information at to avoid the numb skulls who are eating pies, playing the ukulele, applying make-up etc in the comfort of their airconditioned armchairs as they make random attempts to kill me!!!!!!!

Offline marksman

  • Full Member
  • *
  • Posts: 44
Re: Further Adventures of the Missing 6th Gear
« Reply #114 on: October 23, 2011, 02:46:45 PM »
O.K.  I am back in again.
I changed the rear sprocket on my 1978 CB550K that I purchased BRAND NEW.
The reason I did it was that 3 plus years into owning the bike I no longer was racing it around,
it had become my COMMUTER to and from work.  Mostly all freeways.  I wanted to lower the RPM's and hence get better fuel economy.
The gearing change was negatively noticeable when moving under 20 mph.
The bike was capable of going 200 miles on a tank of fuel.  4 gallons  50 mpg.
I am out ( for now!)
« Last Edit: October 23, 2011, 02:48:33 PM by marksman »
on my third CB550k  Bought brand new 1978,  used 1977, used 1978 current bike  4635 original miles now

Offline 750cafe

  • Hot Shot
  • ***
  • Posts: 607
Re: Further Adventures of the Missing 6th Gear
« Reply #115 on: November 06, 2011, 09:52:40 AM »
If he is running points ignition and his condensers took a crap,
it could scream along and barely go.
But, he says that he can pop wheelies.



Eric

I'll bet that he finally took a look at changing these parts and it now runs great.  ;)

Eric
Is there anything more fun than riding? They are between your legs and are quiet when you turn them off.

Offline grcamna2

  • Not a
  • Really Old Timer ...
  • *******
  • Posts: 15,100
  • I love to restore & travel. Keep'em Going Strong !
Re: Further Adventures of the Missing 6th Gear
« Reply #116 on: November 06, 2011, 11:10:20 AM »
Breezy, did you at least put a NEW 17 tooth front sprocket on it ?
75' CB400F/'bunch o' parts' & 81' CB125S modded to a 'CB200S'
  I love the small ones too !
Do your BEST...nobody can take that away from you.

Offline dave500

  • Really Old Timer ...
  • *******
  • Posts: 17,000
  • WHAT?no gravy?
Re: Further Adventures of the Missing 6th Gear
« Reply #117 on: November 18, 2011, 12:35:31 AM »
come on breezy,update us,im keen to find out what it is.

Offline jneuf

  • Hot Shot
  • ***
  • Posts: 522
Re: Further Adventures of the Missing 6th Gear
« Reply #118 on: November 18, 2011, 07:00:01 PM »
come on breezy,update us,im keen to find out what it is.

agreed....I'm curious
'75 CB400f

Offline grcamna2

  • Not a
  • Really Old Timer ...
  • *******
  • Posts: 15,100
  • I love to restore & travel. Keep'em Going Strong !
Re: Further Adventures of the Missing 6th Gear
« Reply #119 on: November 18, 2011, 07:05:19 PM »
Was it the internal primary ratio ?
75' CB400F/'bunch o' parts' & 81' CB125S modded to a 'CB200S'
  I love the small ones too !
Do your BEST...nobody can take that away from you.

Offline dave500

  • Really Old Timer ...
  • *******
  • Posts: 17,000
  • WHAT?no gravy?
Re: Further Adventures of the Missing 6th Gear
« Reply #120 on: November 18, 2011, 07:49:36 PM »
negative, weve been through that aspect.