Author Topic: Ever heard of needles and jets going bad?  (Read 12712 times)

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Offline Duanob

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Re: Ever heard of needles and jets going bad?
« Reply #25 on: October 26, 2011, 08:08:35 AM »
I want to thank everyone who has helped out so far with this issue I'm having. So back when I bought the bike it was running super rich, with gas leaking out of the vacuum hole on top of the carb float bowl, got so bad that it actually stained the starter cover. The thing always wreaked of gas to when ever it ran and even a for a little bit after. Yanked all four spark plugs out and they're all covered in soot. Not knowing much about multiple synchronized carburetor systems vs single carb engines which I am mostly used to.

I decided that it's best to have a shop look at them and determine whats best. I'm told they need to be rebuild and that it won't be cheap. I think about it for a little bit, put together some extra cash and pull the trigger on it. I get it back a few days later and it runs great...at first. Slowly little by little it begins to bog down. What I did notice immediately was that the fuel mileage on it was still the same, about 25 MPG. I call back about it and hear from the mechanic that it most likely needs to Needle Set and Jet (Honda part number 16012-393-014), rebuild kits I've found so far don't include these. If you look in the image I uploaded it's part number 3.

Honestly, I think it's a little fishy as well.  Right now I'm sticking with this guy because I've already paid him and he's agreed to fix this problem till it's solved, but I'm still on the hook for parts. He doesn't seem like a bad guy, his shop is very old, very well known and gets lots of business despite being in the middle of no-where so I have reason to believe that I'm not being just dicked around and I may infact have a relatively rare problem.....or not.

What do you guys think my next move should be?

I'm sticking with dirt and crud on the needles from sitting in gas. Went through the same exact thing on my bike. Cleaned the carbs three times before I cleaned the needles and it fixed my running rich problems right up. The crud is usually micro and hard to see with a naked eyue, especially when your site is bad like mine. But it's enough to hold the needle open more than the it's supposed to be allowing extra gas to constantly flow through the needles/jet when it's not supposed to, like at idle.

ALSO: make sure the old guy didn't mess with the stock position of the needle clip.
"Just because you flush a boatload of money down the toilet, doesn't make the toilet worth more",  My Stepfather the Unknown Poet

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Offline harisuluv

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Re: Ever heard of needles and jets going bad?
« Reply #26 on: October 26, 2011, 04:23:56 PM »
A lot of people who rebuild carbs have their own idea about what "cleaning" is.  Usually this means just dunking the whole assembly in a can of carb cleaner and then watching american idol.  Then they call you to pick up your "cleaned" carbs aka "PAY ME NOW!"

DH

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Re: Ever heard of needles and jets going bad?
« Reply #27 on: October 26, 2011, 05:56:48 PM »
I had a set wear enough to cause an off idle stumble/rich condition under light throttle accel/decel. New sets from Honda cured it. It caused black plugs over time before fixed.
I tried them as a last resort. I'm wondering if this problem was
less of a concern back when the bikes were new and used leaded gas, the lead in the gas acting as a lubricant.
I was told that this issue was a little more common on the 750
than on the 500/550,  by a honda tech. But only after a good amount of miles on the bike, or with poor air filtration.

fuwad84

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Re: Ever heard of needles and jets going bad?
« Reply #28 on: October 26, 2011, 10:00:21 PM »
So I'm checking out google, ebay and various out of state dealerships. So far no luck, would you guys know of any place where I'd be able to find such items? Here's another question, if I just had one of those little muther-fer's couldn't I get a machine shop to replicate the other 3 and then some?

Offline GoatBaSS

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Re: Ever heard of needles and jets going bad?
« Reply #29 on: October 27, 2011, 06:19:59 AM »
Unless I am missing something, Parts N More has rebuild kits.
Leethal # 3046?
1972 CB750K/900CC Red Headed Dunstall, 1975CB750FSS Gone BNF: 1974CB500T, 1976CB750K X 2

Offline Duanob

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Re: Ever heard of needles and jets going bad?
« Reply #30 on: October 27, 2011, 08:19:43 AM »
So I'm checking out google, ebay and various out of state dealerships. So far no luck, would you guys know of any place where I'd be able to find such items? Here's another question, if I just had one of those little muther-fer's couldn't I get a machine shop to replicate the other 3 and then some?

If you insist on new then there are some on EBAY:

http://www.ebay.com/itm/1974-1976-cb550-cb550k-carburetor-CARB-REPAIR-KITS-/390352243115?hash=item5ae2ce89ab&item=390352243115&pt=Motorcycles_Parts_Accessories&vxp=mtr

First thing you should do is research how to take apart and clean them your self. get the proper tools for cleaning and make sure every orifice is cleaned thoroughly. ID the proper jet sizes and needle clip position when you're in there. Get a sync gauge of some kind. Then we can help you out alng the way. If you insist on taking the bike to someone else, we can't really help you with that.
"Just because you flush a boatload of money down the toilet, doesn't make the toilet worth more",  My Stepfather the Unknown Poet

1974 CB360T
1976 CB550K2 Resurrected
1976 CB550F2 Barn Find
1979 CX500 VG "HONDA-GUZZI"
2007 Moto Guzzi Breva 750ie
2015 BMW F700GS
Another 1976 CB550K Cafe?

  __o
_- \_<,
(*) /' (*)

fuwad84

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Re: Ever heard of needles and jets going bad?
« Reply #31 on: October 27, 2011, 12:26:36 PM »
To clarify once again I'm looking for a needle jet set, which is the needle, needle holder(jet?) and clip. Something similar would be like this over here http://www.ebay.com/itm/CB750F1-75-76-CB750-K5-NEEDLE-JET-SETS-4-/350399377199?pt=AU_Motorcycle_Parts_Accessories&hash=item51956e2f2f  But I need it for a 1977 CB750A, its part number 16012-393-014, can't find it anywhere. I've spoken to a machinist who said he may be able to replicate them, but I'd have to make sure they were made out of the correct metal...and I'm not sure if there was a further process the pieces went through.

Offline phil71

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Re: Ever heard of needles and jets going bad?
« Reply #32 on: October 27, 2011, 12:52:45 PM »
you're going to save a lot of $ if you just find a used rack and pillage it.

Offline ofreen

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Re: Ever heard of needles and jets going bad?
« Reply #33 on: October 27, 2011, 12:53:41 PM »
I've spoken to a machinist who said he may be able to replicate them, but I'd have to make sure they were made out of the correct metal...and I'm not sure if there was a further process the pieces went through.

Besides that, he'd have to get the taper right, something the aftermarket can't seem to do.
Greg
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Offline mrbreeze

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Re: Ever heard of needles and jets going bad?
« Reply #34 on: October 27, 2011, 09:15:55 PM »
Like I said earlier.............They were still available from Honda a coupla years ago...........has that changed??? Also......these were the earlier ones (75 750 K).
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fuwad84

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Re: Ever heard of needles and jets going bad?
« Reply #35 on: October 28, 2011, 12:23:26 AM »
I have checked many dealerships and honda shops, they all tell me that the part is discontinued and that they have no stock of them.

Offline phil71

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Re: Ever heard of needles and jets going bad?
« Reply #36 on: October 28, 2011, 12:37:49 AM »
just get used ones man, what's the big deal? Hiring machinists? That's insane. You could buy a whole running bike for what that'll cost.

Offline dave500

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Re: Ever heard of needles and jets going bad?
« Reply #37 on: October 28, 2011, 02:31:52 AM »
anyone tried using ordinary manual gearbox ones,it might be a bit like auto and manual cars of old with carbs,they often have different jetting but the carbs seem to able to be swapped and they still run ok?an auto will like a richer slow speed circuit.

Offline d9canada

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Re: Ever heard of needles and jets going bad?
« Reply #38 on: October 29, 2011, 10:50:50 AM »
Whoa, full stop.. Man, you don't even know if the carbs need anything but a clean-up and bench sync.  Here's a good guide.

http://www.salocal.com/sohc/tech/carb/carb.htm

Click on any one of the small pictures to expand into the guide and from there you can go next previous etc.  It is a very good guide.  Usually for bikes that have sat for extended periods of time, the float bowl area will look really bad but still be OK with careful work.  I use Pine Sol to soak metal stuff overnight, NO plastics or rubber.  Rinse thoroughly with fresh water and dry with compressed air.

I built a simple plywood box with salvaged plexiglass top, you could also use glass (I will assume you know to be careful), cut two 4 inch holes for my arms, one 2 in hole in one end for air and feed hoses.  I bought a cheapo "siphon sand blast gun" on sale $18 (hey wait, I posted a thread on this..) anyway I use baking soda instead of sand.  Baking soda will clean crud but not cut into critical surfaces.  I've cleaned very nasty stuff to spotless very quickly.  It's great for small brass parts like pilot jets with the tiny little tips you can easily break using a wire "toothbrush".  Soda brings it all to a great burnished finish.  If you use soda, give the parts a quick dunk again in Pine Sol maybe 10 min, thorough fresh water rinse and dry as before.

Usually you will only need Orings and a float bowl gasket which usually is just an Oring held with just a trace of gasket glue suitable for fuel.  When I say trace, imagine a Marine drill instructor yelling in your ear.. use  a toothpick and put a trace of glue where the Oring needs to be and stick it in place. 

Quit getting scared and thinking about ordering anything.  Get it apart and have a look, which is probably the thing your mechanic did not do.

Follow the guide.  Don't worry about your inexperience.  I had never done 4 carb systems before and I followed a similar guide for CB900C carbs - I have so far turned two bikes which sat 7 and 9 years respectively into kittens that pur. At the end of the guide is the process normally called bench sync, where you get the carbs all synchronized mechanically.  Do that very carefully and your bike will run well.  A dynamic sync may make some improvement, but do make sure your valves are all spot on first or the dynamic sync is useless.

While you have the tank off, flush it and install a small inline filter (best ones are at lawnmower shops).  The filter has an arrow, make sure it goes with the direction of flow.  Tank, filter, carbs, and you will be fine.
 
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« Last Edit: October 29, 2011, 10:53:09 AM by d9canada »
Brian

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