Author Topic: Voltage Regulator sanity check.  (Read 3260 times)

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Offline Rgconner

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Voltage Regulator sanity check.
« on: October 20, 2011, 08:39:39 PM »
First, the history:

Bike has always had a charging problem as long as I have had it. I have cleaned plugs, replaced wires, cleaned contacts in switches all over the bike...

which has helped, but not solved the charging issue.

So, after verifying once again the rectifier was not a rectumfrier... I ran a ground wire as suggested by Hondaman, and wanted to see the results.

So, I hook up the multi-meter, and I get decent voltage of it, 12.40, a slight discharge state. I start the bike, crank the revs up until the voltage is over 12.40, 13.80ish, at about 2500rpm. So at this point, the battery is taking a charge.

I let it rev for a bit, and the voltage drops off as expected, to 12.6v. I shut off the machine and let the battery settle for a minute, to 12.51v. Not fully charged, but good, it went up .11 volts.

Restart the bike, rev it back up to 2500rpm, hit the headlight. Voltage is at 12.4ish, but another 500rpm gets it to 13.6ish. I say "ish" because it bounces around on the digital scale a bit.

Then it suddenly drops to 11.5! Light on, light off, high RPM or not, it is never reaching 12.6v. I can see the points open and close on the regulator, as I have the cover off, but it won't generate any more voltage regardless of the state of the points. Forcing them open or closed with a chopstick shows very little voltage difference between open and closed, idle or 3k RPM.

I shut the bike down and let the battery settle down. It is now at 12.22, so it has lost some charge, which I expected from the observation above.

I have to leave it alone for a while, make dinner. 1.5hrs later, I go back out and start the bike. 14.8v @2500 rpm. I let the bike run for a couple of minutes. After 5 min or so, the voltage drops off again! I shut down the bike and set up the fan to run right over the regulator.

I check the rectifier, it is still reading good. Restart the bike that has cooled a bit, but not fully, and I get 14.5v for about 30 seconds, then it drops off again. Then, after a minute or so, it kicks right back in for 30 seconds before dropping off. I can hear an RPM drop when the state changes.

I am pretty certain at this point I have a flaky regulator that poops out when it gets hot enough. It is probably opening the circuit, cooling down, then opening again.

This would explain why long rides of an hour on the freeway generally cost me a few tenths of battery charge.

So... is my logic sound? Is there something else I can try or do to confirm this result?
1975 CB550K aka "Grease Monkey"

Offline Spanner 1

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Re: Voltage Regulator sanity check.
« Reply #1 on: October 20, 2011, 09:49:06 PM »
Still have a crappy connection you haven't discovered yet IMO. Are you sure about the big 8 way connector to the alt. ( has 3x yellow, etc. ).?.... it may be the bullet connectors under the alternator cover  which spend their life in an oil wash  :o.... might be time to open the cover, a new gasket at hand would be good before you open it up first tho' .... think your regulator is A.O.K.
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Offline Hush

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Re: Voltage Regulator sanity check.
« Reply #2 on: October 20, 2011, 10:22:48 PM »
Been working on a similar problem on another bike, found the wires down to the alternator were earthing out as they went through the engine casings! :(
I was told by a wrenching mate the other day that if the reg/rec is put in the airfilter box it has cool air passing over it so it behaves itself, aparently all that heat from the head/headers drifting back has a very negative effect on the reg/rec.
I think the thing I most like about motorcycling is the speed at which my brain must process information at to avoid the numb skulls who are eating pies, playing the ukulele, applying make-up etc in the comfort of their airconditioned armchairs as they make random attempts to kill me!!!!!!!

Offline Rgconner

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Re: Voltage Regulator sanity check.
« Reply #3 on: October 20, 2011, 11:32:11 PM »
Still have a crappy connection you haven't discovered yet IMO. Are you sure about the big 8 way connector to the alt. ( has 3x yellow, etc. ).?.... it may be the bullet connectors under the alternator cover  which spend their life in an oil wash  :o.... might be time to open the cover, a new gasket at hand would be good before you open it up first tho' .... think your regulator is A.O.K.

Checked and cleaned those connections and wires.  Opened the cover on the alternator before an verified resistance across the coils.

Disturbing the wires does not seem to cause an issue, just getting hot. I will look again and check those wires.
1975 CB550K aka "Grease Monkey"

Offline TwoTired

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Re: Voltage Regulator sanity check.
« Reply #4 on: October 20, 2011, 11:59:21 PM »
The role of the voltage regulator in the SOHC4 is often misunderstood.
The "regulation" it provides is really only one that protects the battery from overcharge. IE. not allowing it to go over 14.5-15V, as at that voltage the battery is full and charging should be be discontinued or drastically reduced.

Recharging does a chemical conversion in the battery (the reverse of discharging).  However, once all the chemicals have been converted, continued input of energy starts separating the chemicals rather than converting.  The battery appears to be "boiling", but what is really happening is the hydrogen and oxygen are being liberated from the chemical solution via electrolysis.  (Recall high school chemistry where applying DC electricity to electrodes placed in water separates Hydrogen and Oxygen from the respective electrodes?  Hydrogen bubbles from one electrode and oxygen from the other.)

The SOHC4 voltage regulator has the primary function of NOT overcharging and damaging the battery.  The bike system voltage is dominated by the battery charge state.  If the battery is charged, it is the battery that dominates what the system voltage will be.  I think of system voltage regulation as being the battery's job.  The charging system is just maintaining the battery in a charged state when it can.

The SOHC4 Vreg uses the the black wire for two reasons, to sense battery voltage, and as a power source that is passed to the field coil when the voltage it measures shows the battery isn't fully charged.  So, it should be noted that if the black wire isn't reporting truly, the vreg can't be blamed for malfunction.  Lie to electronic devices and they become confused and make wrong decisions (HAL syndrome).
Further, low voltage received on the black wire is passed in full to the field coil, and the field coil strength (and RPM) determines how much power the alternator can make.  Less power in = less power out, in ratio.

The SOHC4 "regulator" has only three distinct operating states it communicates to the field coil; Max power, medium power, and OFF.
Max power is indicated when the battery is discharged below full or discharging.  However, there is no set time it remains in any of these states, and in fact, it can switch between the three in time slices that are determined by battery state, alternator RPM, and system bike electrical load.

Consider a battery full @14.5 V.  The vReg tells the alternator to put out half power.  However, half power isn't enough to run the whole bike, and the battery supplies the difference which lowers the battery voltage (slight discharge).  The Vreg sees that and tells the alternator to switch back to full power, charging the battery back up. The Vreg sees that and switches the Vreg back to medium.  See the cycle here?  The regulator is switching things on and off at a frequency, which we do not and don't normally need to know.

Measuring issues:
Another bit of confusion can be introduced by how a digital multimeter collects and displays information for the technician to interpret.  As you may have noticed the display doesn't remain at one number, it changes.  Digital devices have a screen update time.  There are many meter designs.  But, to give you an idea, the device may sample the voltage source 10 times a second, it may update the display at 1/3 second intervals, and it may or may not do a statistical math operation on the samples collected.
The meter's update and change frequencies may or may not coincide with the Vreg state change frequencies.  For example, if the battery is changing between 13  and 14 V because the vreg is switching the alternator on and off, the meter reading could possibly synchronize with the 13-14V transition and only display 13.5 V.  A digital device is possible to synchronize with random events, as synchronized events are a subset within random.  Further, the numerical alignment and un-alignment of collected samples and device states is infinite.  In other words, a meter can synchronize with events contained in a random field of samples, and report something that is really not truly characteristic of the occurring events.

In my opinion, while your Vreg may be bad, you have not proven it so, as you haven't determined how it is or is not controlling the alternator when the battery needs it (or not).

The white wire to the alternator receives output from the Vreg in three states; Full passing of what is on the black wire, 1/2 of what is present on the black wire and 0V.

To declare the Vreg as bad, you have to check at least two of the states; Full and 1/2 power.  For full power the battery needs to be below, say, 12.5 V. And when the battery is between 13.5 and 14.5V the white wire should have maybe 6V -ish.  However, if the contacts are chattering or "hunting" between the two states, your meter and battery may average that sampled voltage anywhere in between.

Be certain that the "sudden drop" you noticed isn't just the result of the charging system finally restoring full charge to the battery, and the vreg responding with "that's enough full power".

However, if you can measure the battery at 12.5V and the Vreg isn't passing all the voltage it gets on the black wire over to the white wire, the Vreg is not doing the job correctly.

Something you might do is try changing the bike system load during testing and collecting voltage data.  Pull the headlight fuse, which will remove 50-40 Watts from the system load trying to drain the battery.  The battery should still never exceed 14.6V.  But, the Vreg switching frequencies will all change with the load change.

Have you checked that the Black wire closely represents what the battery voltage really is, both with headlight on and headlight off?

Hope this helps,
Lloyd... (SOHC4 #11 Original Mail List)
72 500, 74 550, 75 550K, 75 550F, 76 550F, 77 550F X2, 78 550K, 77 750F X2, 78 750F, 79CX500, 85 700SC, GL1100

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Offline Hush

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Re: Voltage Regulator sanity check.
« Reply #5 on: October 21, 2011, 01:42:36 AM »
Or just keep riding and enjoying your bike till it dies and then replace the battery, these charging issues will ruin your enjoyment of life! ;D

Sorry TT couldn't help myself. :D
I think the thing I most like about motorcycling is the speed at which my brain must process information at to avoid the numb skulls who are eating pies, playing the ukulele, applying make-up etc in the comfort of their airconditioned armchairs as they make random attempts to kill me!!!!!!!

Offline Toxic

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Re: Voltage Regulator sanity check.
« Reply #6 on: October 21, 2011, 03:57:56 AM »
Thanks TT for that post. Best explanation I have ever read on this.  I printed a copy to keep.

Offline Rgconner

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Re: Voltage Regulator sanity check.
« Reply #7 on: October 21, 2011, 08:05:50 AM »
The role of the voltage regulator in the SOHC4 is often misunderstood.

... lots of good info...

However, if you can measure the battery at 12.5V and the Vreg isn't passing all the voltage it gets on the black wire over to the white wire, the Vreg is not doing the job correctly.


Have you checked that the Black wire closely represents what the battery voltage really is, both with headlight on and headlight off?

Hope this helps,

I think I understood how it worked beforehand, and I am pretty sure I understood correctly based on your explaination.

Knowing the bit about the Black to white wire I think is key, I need to go test what it does with the inflowing voltage.

Internal lossage would certainly be a red flag, especially if it changes as it heats up.

One note, as I know it is was a long post... I did force the regulator into charge and no-charge modes by using a chopstick to force open and close the points on top of the regulator.

At least, that is my understand of what those points do, the coil underneath is an electromagnet and when there is enough charge it will open the points shutting down the generation.

Also, the engine, which was pegged at 3000rpm, would wobble a bit as the alternator kicked in, the points opened and closed and voltages went up. Exactly what I would expect.

When the reg got hot and stopped working the engine did not respond by changing RPMs, and the voltages did not change.
1975 CB550K aka "Grease Monkey"

Offline TwoTired

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Re: Voltage Regulator sanity check.
« Reply #8 on: October 21, 2011, 10:07:27 AM »
The Vreg has within it a dual contact arm.  At rest and low battery voltages the upper contact is "made".  This directly connects the Black wire terminal to the White wire terminal.  When the arm is pulled away from the upper contact and not "making" the lower contact, a 10Ω resistor is placed in series with the Black and White terminal path (this effects a drop in the voltage passed to the White wire controlling the alternator).  When the arm is pulled to the lower contact the white wire directly connected to the Green wire which is ground (this would be in response to a battery voltage above 15V in a properly functioning and adjusted Vreg).

The arm position among the contacts, is determined by the electromagnet coil strength, balanced against spring pressure.  The electromagnetic coil strength is determined by the voltage level measured between the Black wire terminals and the Green wire terminal.  The adjustment screw alters the amount of pressure normally placed on the contact arm against the pull of the electromagnet.

The contacts make and break current to the Field coil, and this action can cause contact heating, surface melting, and fuse dust particles into the contact surface.  Surface irregularities and contamination can reduce the current path area and increase heating considerably, leading to rapid degradation.  The contacts need to be smooth and clean, as faulty contacts only pass a portion of the current and voltage through them.
A problem here can be exacerbated when the Vreg "hunts" for a charging level between one half and full alternator output.  Those upper contacts need to be in good condition for optimum operation.

...For those that want to know How and Why.

Cheers,
Lloyd... (SOHC4 #11 Original Mail List)
72 500, 74 550, 75 550K, 75 550F, 76 550F, 77 550F X2, 78 550K, 77 750F X2, 78 750F, 79CX500, 85 700SC, GL1100

Those that learn from history are doomed to repeat it by those that don't learn from history.

Offline Rgconner

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Re: Voltage Regulator sanity check.
« Reply #9 on: October 21, 2011, 10:24:16 AM »
So, taking your advice TT, I turned on the key and with the battery 12.6v, the voltage across the Green and Black is 9.6v

That seems wrong, doesn't it?
 
1975 CB550K aka "Grease Monkey"

Offline wrenchmuch

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Re: Voltage Regulator sanity check.
« Reply #10 on: October 21, 2011, 10:45:41 AM »
The resistor ( mounted to the reg that produces different voltage to the field coil depending on contact position ) might be faulty . The fault might be temperature dependant .
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Offline Rgconner

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Re: Voltage Regulator sanity check.
« Reply #11 on: October 21, 2011, 11:01:32 AM »
The resistor ( mounted to the reg that produces different voltage to the field coil depending on contact position ) might be faulty . The fault might be temperature dependant .

Said resistor is now emitting smoke...

I am not a doctor, but I would say it is dead, Jim.
1975 CB550K aka "Grease Monkey"

Offline TwoTired

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Re: Voltage Regulator sanity check.
« Reply #12 on: October 21, 2011, 11:04:15 AM »
So, taking your advice TT, I turned on the key and with the battery 12.6v, the voltage across the Green and Black is 9.6v

That seems wrong, doesn't it?
Yep.  Does it change with headlight load removed?  It probably goes up, but if a lot, that means there is some nasty resistance in the conduction path between battery and black wire power distribution.  Check the path on the wire diagram, every switch contact, inline connection, or fuse terminal is suspect.

FYI, 9.6v to the alternator field (instead of 12V) will seriously weaken the alternator output.

I thought you had already tried jumpering the white wire to the POS battery post?  This bypasses the vreg AND all the interconnect wiring, switches. etc.  But, YOU will have to keep the battery from going over 15V with the alternator revved up.

The thrill of the hunt...  ;D

Lloyd... (SOHC4 #11 Original Mail List)
72 500, 74 550, 75 550K, 75 550F, 76 550F, 77 550F X2, 78 550K, 77 750F X2, 78 750F, 79CX500, 85 700SC, GL1100

Those that learn from history are doomed to repeat it by those that don't learn from history.

Offline Rgconner

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Re: Voltage Regulator sanity check.
« Reply #13 on: October 21, 2011, 12:45:03 PM »
TT: That reading was taken with the Vreg removed. There is just no clearance back there to make measurements while the Vreg is in place.

I guess I could remove the seat and airbox and get it at that way...

In the meantime, the smoke has stopped and the vReg is doing it's job after some fiddling with the adjustment screw. I would say I turned it inward a turn .5 from stock. Generates 15v steady with the contact up, then flutters for a bit, then drops to 12.5 or so when the contact is down.

I am starting to suspect that there was some oil back there, there is still traces actually, that was allowing a short and now that it has burned off it is working right. While it was smoking the heat on the resistor was >125C, which is the upper limit of the infrared thermometer I have.

Now it seems to be settling out at 50 to 65C.   

Where did the oil come from? Probably overspray from the contact cleaning and lube I used to clean the contacts. It is supposed to evaporate, but I think it soaked into the green paper covering the resistor coil.

I dunno. Fixed? maybe.

I sure as hell don't trust it yet.
1975 CB550K aka "Grease Monkey"

Offline Hush

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Re: Voltage Regulator sanity check.
« Reply #14 on: October 21, 2011, 01:04:31 PM »
Where do you get the Ohms sign on your keyboard TT?
I think the thing I most like about motorcycling is the speed at which my brain must process information at to avoid the numb skulls who are eating pies, playing the ukulele, applying make-up etc in the comfort of their airconditioned armchairs as they make random attempts to kill me!!!!!!!

Offline TwoTired

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Re: Voltage Regulator sanity check.
« Reply #15 on: October 21, 2011, 01:10:42 PM »
TT: That reading was taken with the Vreg removed. There is just no clearance back there to make measurements while the Vreg is in place.

I guess I could remove the seat and airbox and get it at that way...
Or, use alligator clip jumpers to extent the probes. ...Or, use alligator ended meter leads.

In the meantime, the smoke has stopped and the vReg is doing it's job after some fiddling with the adjustment screw. I would say I turned it inward a turn .5 from stock. Generates 15v steady with the contact up, then flutters for a bit, then drops to 12.5 or so when the contact is down.
Pity you didn't find and fix cause before "fiddling" with the adjustment.  It's is almost certainly wrong, now.  Which leads to the risk of "cooking" off and damaging the battery on a long ride later.  It's really risky if you have an undiscovered "intermittent" elsewhere in the bike.


That wire wound resistor is capable of dissipating over 25 - 50 watts with a little air flow over it.  The most it normally "sees" is about 1.5 amps while dropping 6V, which is 9 Watts.  Sure it can get hot.  No biggy.  It a big boy and can take it.  However, if there is lower resistance on that white wire then the current and heat will go up in the Vreg's drop resistor.
Have you measured the alternator field coil resistance yet?  The 750's are 6.8Ω and the 500/550's are 4.9Ω.

Cheers,
Lloyd... (SOHC4 #11 Original Mail List)
72 500, 74 550, 75 550K, 75 550F, 76 550F, 77 550F X2, 78 550K, 77 750F X2, 78 750F, 79CX500, 85 700SC, GL1100

Those that learn from history are doomed to repeat it by those that don't learn from history.

Offline TwoTired

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Re: Voltage Regulator sanity check.
« Reply #16 on: October 21, 2011, 01:13:26 PM »
Where do you get the Ohms sign on your keyboard TT?
It's the option (or alt) and Z keys.  (Mac keyboard)

Cheers,
Lloyd... (SOHC4 #11 Original Mail List)
72 500, 74 550, 75 550K, 75 550F, 76 550F, 77 550F X2, 78 550K, 77 750F X2, 78 750F, 79CX500, 85 700SC, GL1100

Those that learn from history are doomed to repeat it by those that don't learn from history.

Offline Bodi

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Re: Voltage Regulator sanity check.
« Reply #17 on: October 21, 2011, 05:13:38 PM »
I can't find a way to input unicode characters here, but the ohm sign Ω is U2126. I copied it from the character map and pasted it into a notepad .txt file so I can copy it again pretty quickly (compared with opening character map, anyway). If anyone knows how to enter a unicode in the forum let me know! The usual tricks don't work, especially with a laptop keyboard (I haven't tried with a "real" keyboard that has the number pad).

Offline Spanner 1

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Re: Voltage Regulator sanity check.
« Reply #18 on: October 21, 2011, 06:03:33 PM »
OP reports that the 10 ohm w.w. resistor on the back of the V reg 'smoked'..... that resistor, acting as a voltage dropper and in series with the field coil never sees more than 1 amp of current thru' it, which would never 'smoke' it. So, there must be an intermittent short in the field coil or on the White (+) wire that feeds the field coil from the V. reg........ white wire suspect, coil recovering from shorted windings when cooled ??..... don't think so !, take a hard look at where the alt. wires pass into the alt. casing.... my 2c.
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Offline Rgconner

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Re: Voltage Regulator sanity check.
« Reply #19 on: October 21, 2011, 06:39:06 PM »
TT: That reading was taken with the Vreg removed. There is just no clearance back there to make measurements while the Vreg is in place.

I guess I could remove the seat and airbox and get it at that way...
Or, use alligator clip jumpers to extent the probes. ...Or, use alligator ended meter leads.

In the meantime, the smoke has stopped and the vReg is doing it's job after some fiddling with the adjustment screw. I would say I turned it inward a turn .5 from stock. Generates 15v steady with the contact up, then flutters for a bit, then drops to 12.5 or so when the contact is down.
Pity you didn't find and fix cause before "fiddling" with the adjustment.  It's is almost certainly wrong, now.  Which leads to the risk of "cooking" off and damaging the battery on a long ride later.  It's really risky if you have an undiscovered "intermittent" elsewhere in the bike.


That wire wound resistor is capable of dissipating over 25 - 50 watts with a little air flow over it.  The most it normally "sees" is about 1.5 amps while dropping 6V, which is 9 Watts.  Sure it can get hot.  No biggy.  It a big boy and can take it.  However, if there is lower resistance on that white wire then the current and heat will go up in the Vreg's drop resistor.
Have you measured the alternator field coil resistance yet?  The 750's are 6.8Ω and the 500/550's are 4.9Ω.

Cheers,

They are 1 Ohm at the 6 slot plug for the regulator. Based on this posting:

http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php?topic=78265.0

you have indicated this is likely just fine. I could pull the cover and do a proper test, I just need to find time to tear into it.

And, it does charge the battery when it is working properly. You can see that in the voltage the battery has after shutting down the bike, usually settling at ~12.5 volts, up from 12.3 or so. Not fully charged, but close.

In all this I have a mental fault tree going... and so far the net of the advice is trust the Vreg, distrust everything else.

There seems to be no way so far stated to definitively prove or disprove the Vreg is good or bad. It is, as Sherlock says, what remains when all other possibilities are exhausted.
1975 CB550K aka "Grease Monkey"

Offline TwoTired

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Re: Voltage Regulator sanity check.
« Reply #20 on: October 21, 2011, 07:02:37 PM »
They are 1 Ohm at the 6 slot plug for the regulator. Based on this posting:

http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php?topic=78265.0

you have indicated this is likely just fine. I could pull the cover and do a proper test, I just need to find time to tear into it.

That's the stator winding that can read 1 ohms depending on the test equipment and operator technique.

I'm asking you to check the alternator's field coil resistance.
This winding connects to the Vreg  Wht terminal. and the Green.  You can start by disconnecting it at the Vreg and measure the White (coil) wire resistance there.

Cheers,

Lloyd... (SOHC4 #11 Original Mail List)
72 500, 74 550, 75 550K, 75 550F, 76 550F, 77 550F X2, 78 550K, 77 750F X2, 78 750F, 79CX500, 85 700SC, GL1100

Those that learn from history are doomed to repeat it by those that don't learn from history.

Offline Spanner 1

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Re: Voltage Regulator sanity check.
« Reply #21 on: October 21, 2011, 07:06:42 PM »
( Waiting excitedly for results of this test.... sure as hell wont be 5-6 ohms ! )... or wait , is the motor cold now ??
If your sure it's a carb problem; it's ignition,
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Offline Hush

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Re: Voltage Regulator sanity check.
« Reply #22 on: October 21, 2011, 09:50:17 PM »
My guess too Spanner ;)

"look at where the alt. wires pass into the alt. casing"
I think the thing I most like about motorcycling is the speed at which my brain must process information at to avoid the numb skulls who are eating pies, playing the ukulele, applying make-up etc in the comfort of their airconditioned armchairs as they make random attempts to kill me!!!!!!!

Offline Rgconner

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Re: Voltage Regulator sanity check.
« Reply #23 on: October 22, 2011, 10:35:26 AM »
( Waiting excitedly for results of this test.... sure as hell wont be 5-6 ohms ! )... or wait , is the motor cold now ??

Took it three times, 5.2, 5.0, 5.5.
Cold engine. I will warm it up and take them again.
1975 CB550K aka "Grease Monkey"

Offline Rgconner

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Re: Voltage Regulator sanity check.
« Reply #24 on: October 22, 2011, 11:30:11 AM »
Hot readings:

5.2,5.2,5.3
1975 CB550K aka "Grease Monkey"