Author Topic: What material for a custom axle?  (Read 7631 times)

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Offline brandEn

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Re: What material for a custom axle?
« Reply #25 on: October 22, 2011, 09:14:39 AM »
Yup 20mm I started confusing myself. Thanks Mike for the offer. I don't think 13.25" is long enough if I go with threaded on both ends. My swingarm measures 12" wide so I am thinking I need something more like 14". That would give me enough length to install a washer under each nut.

Offline brandEn

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Re: What material for a custom axle?
« Reply #26 on: October 24, 2011, 04:12:00 AM »
So I found that Grainger has a 20mm shaft made from 1566 carbon steel. I am assuming this will be ok for my axle. Can anyone confirm this?  Its about $30 for a 500 mm length.  Grainger item # 2HWR7.

Offline brandEn

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Re: What material for a custom axle?
« Reply #27 on: October 24, 2011, 02:36:47 PM »
So can anyone chime in on the 1566? Yay or nay?

Offline y2kc0wb0y

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Re: What material for a custom axle?
« Reply #28 on: October 24, 2011, 06:29:41 PM »
Very Interested in how this turns out for you because I have the exact same problem. Need rear axle for Boxed swing arm and K hub. Carpy has them in Rolled Steel but wants $97.00 plus shipping which includes the hardware. Keep me posted on your research and maybe I can tag along.
« Last Edit: October 24, 2011, 07:02:03 PM by y2kc0wb0y »
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Offline brandEn

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Re: What material for a custom axle?
« Reply #29 on: October 24, 2011, 06:52:15 PM »
You bet. Maybe once I find exactly what material I can get I will have enough for two axles. It doesnt look like the 1566 is used for this type of application.

Offline brandEn

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Re: What material for a custom axle?
« Reply #30 on: October 24, 2011, 07:13:40 PM »
OK, I can get a 4' section of 20mm 1045 TG&P shafting for $76.75 shipped to me. That would be enough for 3 axles. So any takers on material for a rear axle?

Offline y2kc0wb0y

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Re: What material for a custom axle?
« Reply #31 on: October 24, 2011, 07:37:25 PM »
Sure; keep me posted. You going to source the metric hardware and cut the threading reversed on one side?
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Offline brandEn

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Re: What material for a custom axle?
« Reply #32 on: October 24, 2011, 08:07:26 PM »
The nuts and washers can be bought from Bike Bandit. If your asking if I will get your axle threaded, well probably not. I will just send you the shafting. I am going to have to find someone to thread and cut mine as well. Reversed threads on one side are a great idea though.

Offline 754

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Re: What material for a custom axle?
« Reply #33 on: October 24, 2011, 08:26:54 PM »
 What I have done is cut right hand thread both ends, make one the length of the nut, the other longer so that there are threads sticking out past and a bevel.       Locktite the short end nut.

 I had some welded but sometimes we had cracking, which I did not like.
 I hope someone steps up to thread these for you south of our border.
 
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Offline Retro Rocket

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Re: What material for a custom axle?
« Reply #34 on: October 25, 2011, 12:43:22 AM »
See if you can get hexagonal bar and machine them from that, that way you get a bolt on the end without welding....
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Offline 70CB750

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Re: What material for a custom axle?
« Reply #35 on: October 25, 2011, 03:49:36 AM »
Shipping is pricey anffI dont know if I can easily get 20mm shafting..
 If you can find that its just thread the ends, they should not bend you over too hard for that.. you can thread it 3/4 NF or 5/8, or choose a metric size.
 I suggest you look around a bit there..
i would look for truck axle even a broken one and turned it down, thread as necessary.  But my instincts are of a jeeper, i could be wrong.

On my CBX750 the fork axle broke. In a pinch i used axle from bicycle and drove it 100 km before replacing it. It was bend.
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Offline 70CB750

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Re: What material for a custom axle?
« Reply #36 on: October 25, 2011, 03:56:01 AM »
What thread size is it?  But i would have to check how big is the through hole on my lathe.
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Offline bwaller

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Re: What material for a custom axle?
« Reply #37 on: October 25, 2011, 04:24:36 AM »
I'm sticking my nose in this rather late, but I used a 20mm rear axle from an 88?? GSXR750 on my race bike which was longer than the Honda part. It's drilled and way lighter too. Looking at your picture it might be really close to working.

Offline brandEn

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Re: What material for a custom axle?
« Reply #38 on: October 25, 2011, 04:52:39 AM »
Any chance of measuring it?

Offline bwaller

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Re: What material for a custom axle?
« Reply #39 on: October 25, 2011, 05:33:08 AM »
Sorry man, I had to reduce the length and thread it further. I have no idea how long it was originally, but thought it might be an option.

Offline Rigid

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Re: What material for a custom axle?
« Reply #40 on: October 25, 2011, 08:01:22 AM »
From a machinist on another forum.  He lists alloys: I would recommend getting a piece of shafting steel of a known alloy. Truck axle steels vary- I use truck axle steel for stuff that my life does not depend upon. A motorcycle front axle is something where a failure will likely be sudden, catastrophic & final. Start with a piece of good alloy steel of known properties. 4140 or 4340 are good choices. There are also more specifically made steels like some of the "stressproof" steels. A motorcycle axle sees some interesting stresses- it as, as was noted, in shear where it enters each fork leg. It also has to hold the two fork legs in alignment with each other as well as transmitting the radial and thrust loads from the wheel bearings to the fork legs. Add loadings imposed by braking, road shocks.... and the axle is being asked to do a LOT. A steel with a high tensile strength oftentimes has a relatively high yield point strength. This translates out to the steel not having much of a "cushion" between yeild point (below which the steel is elastic) and failure. High strength is not all it may appear to be, but too low a strength steel will deform plastically under load. I would NOT recommend cold rolled steel, 1020, or anything like it for a motorcycle axle. An alloy steel with fairly high strength AND good impact strength is what is needed.

The other concern is the tolerances to which the axle is machined as well as "geometry" and surface finish. The axle has to hold the two fork legs in alignment as well as the wheel bearings. This means it must be turned and finished to a good close sliding fit int he fork legs as well as the bearing races (assuming Roller Bearings in a Hog front end). The diameters have to be turned to a good true cylinder- no taper, and must be dead-nuts-accurate for concentricity. Where diameters change along the axle, a smooth radius MUST be machined to transition from one diameter to the next. No "forming a radius" in steps by profiling/backing out the toolbit. This is a job for a well ground/stoned form tool. Overall surface finish HAS to be free from tool marks. If you can;t turn accurately with good surface finish and try to finish an axle by lathe-filing and lots of emery cloth, you are playing with fire. Similarly, when you go to thread the end of the axle for the nut, the thread has to be cut in the lathe, free from tool marks, tears, and must end at a nice transition to the axle without a stress riser. While you are machining parts for the front end, you may as well machine good axle spacer bushings from the same steel and make sure they are faced square.

I have seen a Hog front axle made in a Monarch lathe so that a fellow could make a "run" over a July 4th weekend. The amount of aftermarket garbage being sold to Hog owners is staggering and what we saw that time proved it. This fellow had, I believe, a Sportster with some aftermarket front end on it. He had some no-name aftermarket wheel and that's where the trouble began. Showed up at the machine shop on a Thursday before a July 4th weekend, stuff lashed onto the Sporty, wanting to know if we could take a look at his front wheel as the bike was wobbling. Well... the wheel turned out to have some light duty sealed ball bearings, as might be used in an electric motor. No heavy radial or thrust capability. Bearings were no-name bearings and were plainly shot. We miked up the wheel and axle and called the bearing distributor. They were able to match up bearings which would fit and had considerable thrust and radial load capacity. The bearings were put onto a Greyhound bus and sent up to where we were at. The front axle in this no-name front end/wheel was made from some garbage low carbon steel and had some visible deformation- the fork legs were "working" and this axle couldn't hold them. A new axle was machined from a piece of 4140 hot rolled bar stock. It was machined on an old War-Production Board Monarch engine lathe. The Monarch turned nice and true. The toolbits were ground to give nice radius's to transition from one diameter to the next. Surface finish with the toolbits was better than a 63 finish, looked like it was ground. Axle spacer bushing were also made from the 4140. The guy rode off that Friday night, and as far as we knew, rode without incident. I think the machinist who made the axle took perhaps an hour, including time to grind his toolbit and stone it to the radius needed. Aside from his paying for the bearings and shipping, the machinists figured the fellow was only young once, wished him well and took a promise of a case of beer for the job.

In short, a front end of a motorcycle is an indeterminate structure. The axle is asked to a LOT and has a LOT happening in it- as we engineers like to say. Your life, the life of whomever is packing on the back of the Hog and the lives of other people riding nearby (how often do you see Hogs one at a time)depend on that axle. When I work on motorycles, I treat the work as I would machine work on anything else- I use Starrett mikes, dial indicators and whatever it takes to do the job so nothing is left to guess. If I need to make a bearing driver or service tool, I take the time rather than "cobbing". You can't afford to cut a corner or leave something on motorycle work to chance.

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Offline 70CB750

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Re: What material for a custom axle?
« Reply #41 on: October 25, 2011, 08:27:50 AM »
Excellent post or repost, thanks.

I figured the truck axle would have at least problem with machining. Machined parts are generaly weaker than forged.
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Offline 754

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Re: What material for a custom axle?
« Reply #42 on: October 25, 2011, 08:43:28 AM »
 
Some truck axles are hardebed after mostof the machining, then ground. hard to work with..
Some of the problems I have encoutered are the width of the swingarms. H-D's have a lot of bending problems with the 3/4 inch axles. I used ground 4140 on some of them.
 It is probably available in 20mm, but not as common as inch sizes.
 The Honda 750 axle is faitly well supported with the 3 bearing design.
 brandEn, you may want to mesure up some sportbikes with wider arms if you know they are 20mm.. a lot of newer stuff is mich bigger that that.
 Are there blocks that slide in your swingarm, with adjuster bolts to adjust the chain? if not you will need them.
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Offline brandEn

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Re: What material for a custom axle?
« Reply #43 on: October 25, 2011, 12:31:54 PM »
Ok I have 3' of 1045 TG&P shafting on the way. I found a pretty good deal on Ebay and ended up paying about $57 shipped. The new nuts and washers are on the way from Bike Bandit so I should have a new axle in the next week or two. I have a place in mind locally that should be able to turn some threads for me. Hopefully I don't get bent over to hard. As for the early model GSXR axles working, from my research on Ebay they are 13" long, the same as my F3 axle.
http://www.ebay.com/itm/130340039144?ssPageName=STRK:MEWNX:IT&_trksid=p3984.m1497.l2649
« Last Edit: October 25, 2011, 12:36:26 PM by brandEn »

Offline d9canada

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Re: What material for a custom axle?
« Reply #44 on: October 25, 2011, 08:13:35 PM »
4140 is a very tough stainless steel which I have used for years as pins for buckets on hydraulic excavators and backhoes.  Any qualified machinst would have no problem cutting the OD to fit your bearings and spinning a thread to fit any nut you supply.  They will do the thread on the lathe, not with a die.
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Offline Retro Rocket

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Re: What material for a custom axle?
« Reply #45 on: October 26, 2011, 12:49:50 AM »
I'm sticking my nose in this rather late, but I used a 20mm rear axle from an 88?? GSXR750 on my race bike which was longer than the Honda part. It's drilled and way lighter too. Looking at your picture it might be really close to working.

+1, cheap and plentiful and a direct fit apart from the little extra length which should be ideal here....  I should have thought of that earlier as i have one on my F1 build.... :o
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Offline david 750f

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Re: What material for a custom axle?
« Reply #46 on: October 26, 2011, 01:03:27 AM »
D9 Canada, 4140 is NOT stainless steel. I think the OP should PM TTR400. He makes custom axles for CB400F race bikes.
« Last Edit: October 26, 2011, 01:07:14 AM by david 750F »
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Offline 70CB750

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Re: What material for a custom axle?
« Reply #47 on: October 26, 2011, 02:54:20 AM »
4140 is a very tough stainless steel which I have used for years as pins for buckets on hydraulic excavators and backhoes.  Any qualified machinst would have no problem cutting the OD to fit your bearings and spinning a thread to fit any nut you supply.  They will do the thread on the lathe, not with a die.

or on the lathe with a die :)
Prokop
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Offline brandEn

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Re: What material for a custom axle?
« Reply #48 on: October 26, 2011, 03:39:23 AM »
Well I also have a 87 VFR axle on the way. 20mm and 14" long. Should work. And only $20 shipped.

Offline 754

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Re: What material for a custom axle?
« Reply #49 on: October 26, 2011, 08:01:55 AM »
 Go with the VFR, then spacers or recut the thread..
I think that D9 meant high chromuim steel ?
 70cb750, using a die in a lathe, is quite hard on bigger sizes and harder materials, plus cheap dies may not survive even 1 cut. The problem is holding the shaft, so much torque required it usually slips and gets scarred up.. lathe threading is gentler on the part..
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My next bike will be a ..ANFOB.....

It's All part of the ADVENTURE...

73 836cc.. Green, had it for 3 decades!!
Lost quite a few CB 750's along the way