Topic: Sears, They got tools.

[333]

I think the Japanese are still making junk cars.  The safety is on par with the U.S. cars, but the repair rate for body work is almost twice what the American cars are.  The last time my son wrecked his Nissan, the body shop told me his $3500.00 repair would probably be around $2000.00 if it was an American car.

So I know we've drifted way off topic, so I'll say that I love Craftsman tools.  I have a table saw and a drill press my Dad bought in 1954, and they're both still running well.  About 3 years ago, I finally replaced the original belts, and Sears still used the same part numbers!  The last tool my Dad bought was a wood lathe in the early 70s, and I have added a 6" jointer(probably late 70s/early 80s vintage).  All serve me well.

[BobbyR]

I never said that the people that work in those 'right to work' plants were useless Bobby, you said that. The problem is these companies are moving shop from places with skilled union workers and moving to places with unskilled workers who are willing to do the job for a lot less, that is the problem. The car corporations have played a big part in this in that when times were good they went along with the crazy salaries the UAW negotiated because times were good and the Japanese were still making cheap, crappy junk. They never made the shift when Japanese cars quality went up and went head to head and beat the american cars on quality and efficiency when gas prices started rising. Sometimes sacrifices must be made on all sides to compete in an economy- nobody did that here (US car companies) until they were forced to.

So you basically had big, clunky cars that were not as reliable and efficient going into the 80's and 90's and no adjustments were made to the american car business model and then you had the mess that ensued. The Japanese gained groung and started building their cars here because they knew it would be cheaper to assemble the cars here, we have no national health program they have to pay into and they can bypass unions by placing plants in 'right to work' states. I can see why they would want assembly plants in the US.

You are right Stan, buying American doesn't ensure zip anymore, we are in a truly gobal economy these days- the best we can do is try to be informed consumers and attempt to buy local for as much as we can and make informed, concious decisions about everything else we consume. I did say some of the money comes back, I am not foolish to think all the money from a foreign car sale stays here.

The economy in Japan is totally shot and they have an astounding unemployment rate. Their moving their car plants here has made it worse. The European makers are moving here also. Volkswagen is building a huge plant here also. States and localities hire people to lure these plants to their States since their are no jobs or their factories have moved offshore leaving behind a skilled and willing workforce. What it costs to live there is a fraction of what it costs to live in this part of NY. Working people pay income taxes, sales tax etc.

Now, here is an article from the Dally Telegraph which shows what is happening and it is very good news. I find the Foreign press can get a better view than from the outside than the inside.  http://www.telegraph.co.uk/finance/comment/ambroseevans_pritchard/8844646/World-power-swings-back-to-America.html 

[Stev-o]

I think the Japanese are still making junk cars.

C'mon man, you've got to be kidding?!  Have you ever read Consumer Reports?

[333]

I make it a point to stay away from Consumer Reports.  They factor in money.  A cheaper product will always get a higher rating.  But comparing GM cars(my wife and I own 3) and Nissan(both my kids*), I can tell you my GMs fair a whole lot better.  My GMs are older, and cost me less to maintain.  The oldest has features that neither Nissan have.

* Where did I go wrong?

Okay, back on topic, I think we have to add KMart in with Sears.  I just went through one, and was surprised how much Sears has moved in so much product in to the KMarts.  Craftsman,Diehard,Kenmore.  I've never seen so much evidence of the communal ownership, they must have the same philosophy.  But I saw the best product ever.  A typical Craftsman clear handle with red and blue trim(like a screwdriver) BOTTLE OPENER!!  Craftsman name and all!

[Retro Rocket]

I make it a point to stay away from Consumer Reports.  They factor in money.  A cheaper product will always get a higher rating.  But comparing GM cars(my wife and I own 3) and Nissan(both my kids*), I can tell you my GMs fair a whole lot better.  My GMs are older, and cost me less to maintain.  The oldest has features that neither Nissan have.

Your GM's cost a lot more to run. I have had a Isuzu pickup for 15 years, 300,000+ miles on the clock, gets serviced every 6 months, the only thing that has ever gone wrong was no fault of the vehicle, the injector pump seals became brittle because of the low sulphur diesel we have here, replaced the seals around 5 years ago and had no trouble at all. I have owned Ford and GM V8's all my life and none of them are any near as reliable or fuel efficient as my "Jap" Isuzu. As a matter of interest, replacement panels are cheaper than the Western manufacturers here because there are more Japanese cars on the road here, and so a large aftermarket exists, genuine parts differ hugely between Japanese manufacturers and simple shopping around gets you a great deal on parts. The level of options in the Japanese cars blows the Western models away. The Japanese are miles ahead in electronics and innovation.

[Stev-o]

I make it a point to stay away from Consumer Reports.  They factor in money.

Isn't money a factor when buying a car? [unless you're stinkin' rich?!]
And if money isn't a factor, then why did you mention body damage repairs cost nearly twice as much? 
And I don't necessarily agree with that statement as there are aftermarket companies that make quality body panels that are reasonably priced.
I was recently backed into and had my Tacoma repaired and the estimate was cheaper than expected [her insurance co paid].

[switchum]

I think the Japanese are still making junk cars.

 I thought I was on Japanese made Motorcycle forum.

 By the way, I am quite sorry that my simple post to support Sears turned into such a political debate.  Can we just talk about bikes, chicks and maybe cats?

[BobbyR]

I bought a new Snow blower form Sears and I am glad I did.

[Retro Rocket]

I bought a new Snow blower form Sears and I am glad I did.

Whats snow......

[Stev-o]

Mick - guessing you never driven a snowmobile?! Put it on your bucket list, it is a blast!!
(not mine)

[333]

Political?  Really?  I don't believe any reference to left,right,liberal,conservative, Republican or Democrat has been made, inferred or implied.  Just a spirited discussion over American versus Japanese cars.  I don't think I'm alone when I say that many here might ride domestic(U.S) bikes if someone made a style like the Honda's we celebrate(upright seating position,pegs directly below rider, inline 4 cylinder motor).

And we do keep coming back on point.  I was taking a mental inventory of my tools, and of my shop tools 5 of the 6 have the Craftsman name, the 6th being Dunlap, another Sears brand from the 50s/60s.  Of my socket set, easily 95% are Craftsman.  And I'm seriously thinkin' about that bottle opener.

But Stev-o.  While money should be a factor when buying something, it shouldn't be a factor in rating something.  Let's use helmets as an example.  And some may see things differently, but I look at safety first, then comfort, and then looks.  Money comes in when I've looked at these 3 things, and I decide the safest, most comfortable helmet I can afford.  I don't look at price and decide what is safer based on price.  In fact, if you based this decision on price alone, you'd have a seriously unsafe helmet.

[333]

Uh Stev-o?  That's not a snowmobile, it's a work of art!  I WANT one!

[Stev-o]

Uh Stev-o?  That's not a snowmobile, it's a work of art!  I WANT one!

I'd settle for a ride!

[switchum]

Economy is often a big subject for politics, isn't it not?  I remember the day Americans beating on a Japanese cars back in 80's claiming taking jobs off of Americans. And the tariff put by Reagan not importing foreign made motorbikes bigger than 700cc.  I hope to meet you someday, 333 and have a drink. And ride around bikes. Wait,  maybe before we drink. Well I don't care anyhow.

[Retro Rocket]

Mick - guessing you never driven a snowmobile?! Put it on your bucket list, it is a blast!!
(not mine)

That would be fun....

[Artf0rm]

I keep thinking about this and I have told several people about it since I read this post.  I looked at Sears for a washer and dryer but ended up purchasing one used of craigslist, we just couldn't swing it with the moving costs and a new set being $1000 for anything HE.  It's still a Whirlpool so I will be heading to sears for part if it needs it.  I know Sears is not really ever the "low cost choice" but I did find this site through a friend that It did have some good deals.  (http://www.searsoutlet.com/)  Guess it's there overstock in different regions discounted. 

The other thing that I wanted to mention is that when I was a kid my dad had all craftsman tools in the garage and one of the things that has always stuck with me is that he said "If you can afford it.  You should always be willing to spend a little more for quality because in the long run it's going to be a better deal all around.  These have a lifetime warranty and they are made here.  I'll never have to buy any another screwdriver unless you lose it.  So don't lose it."  He was pretty strong on the last part.  He also had a rule that I could use anything in the garage that he had showed me how to operate as long as I cleaned it and returned it afterward.    Not to wax poetic about my dad or anything but I do think that I was the only one of my friends that had access and knowledge of air tools before they were 10.  Think I need to call him today and tell him has awesome that was of him.

[333]

Your GM's cost a lot more to run. I have had a Isuzu pickup for 15 years, 300,000+ miles on the clock, gets serviced every 6 months, the only thing that has ever gone wrong was no fault of the vehicle, the injector pump seals became brittle because of the low sulphur diesel we have here, replaced the seals around 5 years ago and had no trouble at all. I have owned Ford and GM V8's all my life and none of them are any near as reliable or fuel efficient as my "Jap" Isuzu. As a matter of interest, replacement panels are cheaper than the Western manufacturers here because there are more Japanese cars on the road here, and so a large aftermarket exists, genuine parts differ hugely between Japanese manufacturers and simple shopping around gets you a great deal on parts. The level of options in the Japanese cars blows the Western models away. The Japanese are miles ahead in electronics and innovation.

You can't compare a V8 with a 4cylinder.  You can't compare gas and diesel.  And I can't compare AWD GM V6 to FWD Nissan inline 4.  Yes, it costs me more to run my GMs.  They're bigger, with larger engines, and the two newer ones are AWD(gas hogs).  But they are cheaper to maintain.  And when I referred to body work costs, I was referring to the number of parts, not the cost of the parts.  More gets damaged in these Japanese cars in the same wrecks.  That's how they achieve the higher safety ratings over the earlier model cars.  When the IHSA gets done ramming cars into brick walls, someone else does repair estimates.  I forget who, exactly, but it does get done.  Contrary to what my avatar implies, I'm not pulling these statements from my hind parts.

[333]

I envy you, Art.  I wish I could call my Dad.  I too, had a similar advantage.  And I'm in a lucky situation, in that I am living in the same house that Mom and Dad bought in 1954.  My kids went to the same schools that I did, but they are so different now.  No shop in the high schools, and when my oldest was in 7th grade the shop teacher would only allow them to use sand paper.  I was welding and doing aluminum forging in 8th grade.  Now,in the high school, the equipment is still all there, but pushed to one side of the room, covered with tarps, and the room is used for art.  Sad.

[Artf0rm]

Now,in the high school, the equipment is still all there, but pushed to one side of the room, covered with tarps, and the room is used for art.

There is a great Book on this called "Shop Class as Soul Craft".  I love this guy.  Quits his 100k plus a year job to open a motorcycle repair business and discusses why fixing things and creating things with your hands is so much better for you as a person.  Also talks about how we are losing our skilled workers because there are no more apprenticeships in this country.  It's a good read. 

[Duke McDukiedook]

That is sad, why did they take shop away? Money? Fear that kids can't handle the equipment properly?
I remember spot welding and drop forging screwdrivers in my junior high shop class, didn't take metalworking in high school because I soaked up all the drafting courses I could.

Stan is right about the maintenance costs on foreign autos for parts, whenever I go to the O'Reillys or Napa for parts for my Nissan truck I am reminded how much more the parts are compared to american parts- 2 or 3 times as much compared to the american for the same type of part!!

If I did find a small American made truck I liked I would definitely buy one, same for motorcycles.

Most of my toolchest is Craftsman, save some of the moto specialty tools.

[333]

Dukie- probably because of that old joke about shop teachers with missing fingers.

Art- check out the website in my signature line.  I volunteer at an apprentice program.

[Freaky1]

When I was a sophomore in high school, 1986?, we had a jewelry class (forging), metals class (shaping, welding), and a woods class (I built an electric guitar). That same year, a good friend of mine cut most of his thumb off in our woods class, but they didn't change anything about the class. I wet back about 2 years after I graduated & they had cut the jewelry & metals class & the assigned project for woods was a sanding block the had one bolt to hold it together.

[CrankyOldGuy]

Sorry bout the hijack ... but couldn't resist.

Now here's a snowblower for all occasions .. especially with the nor'easter forecast for tomorrow 

[BobbyR]

That is sad, why did they take shop away? Money? Fear that kids can't handle the equipment properly?
I remember spot welding and drop forging screwdrivers in my junior high shop class, didn't take metalworking in high school because I soaked up all the drafting courses I could.

Stan is right about the maintenance costs on foreign autos for parts, whenever I go to the O'Reillys or Napa for parts for my Nissan truck I am reminded how much more the parts are compared to american parts- 2 or 3 times as much compared to the american for the same type of part!!

If I did find a small American made truck I liked I would definitely buy one, same for motorcycles.

Most of my toolchest is Craftsman, save some of the moto specialty tools.

I was on a School Board for 9 years. When the focus went from teaching people how to go out and earn a living to how to go to College, the Industrial Arts programs were ended.

They substituted Board of Cooperative Education Services (BOCES) Schools to teach Auto body, Repair, Plumbing, Welding, and even Culinary and Beauty Services. The good part is they can be better equipped for these special programs.

The reality is, a lot of the participating Districts dump the kids they don't want around there. SO you have kids who go there to learn and a bunch that screw off. After 9 years of observing the Education system, I have very little respect for it, and the people at the top running it. It needs a total overhaul. 

[Duke McDukiedook]

That's dumb, not everyone wants to go to college to get some slip of paper.
It looks like a lot of districts have done that, cut out all the other stuff besides the 3 R's to teach people to a state test. Sad indeed. School is about a lot more than the core subjects.