Author Topic: Rat Poison  (Read 1398 times)

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Offline demon78

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Rat Poison
« on: October 23, 2011, 12:51:21 PM »
Any of you people have experience with blood thinners side effects does it affect your beer consumption etc?
Bill the demon.

Offline TwoTired

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Re: Rat Poison
« Reply #1 on: October 23, 2011, 01:28:27 PM »
Yes. I am taking Warfarin / Coumadin.

Day to day side effects are nil.  Doesn't make you physically feel different.  (Mentally is another matter and varies among individuals.)

It will make you bleed longer when cut or injured.  (applying pressure helps quite a bit.  I used you ignore minor cuts while working on things.  Now, I have to stop what I'm doing, clean and compress it for 5-10 minutes for it to stop.  This slows down repair times, which is irritating.)

Do wear a medic alert for emergency services.  (Internal bleeding is a pretty serious matter that attendants need to know ASAP.)

Gotta be alert for other blood thinners such as Asprin and other medications.

Alcohol is not recommended but allowed in limited use.  Warfarin is removed from bloodstream by liver/kidneys (I forget which), and alcohol is moved by the same organ which taxes it.  Two issues; one is early organ failure, and the other is that if it is busy removing alcohol it doesn't remove Warfarin at the same rate, which allows the anti-clotting levels to increase.  If that gets too high, then internal bleeding can happen almost spontaneously.  (The overdose is what kills rats.  FYI, it was developed originally for human anti clotting use.  They later applied it as chemical warfare against rodents.)

Anyway, I haven't been a high alcohol consumer since before age 25.  And as a pilot and machinery operator, I felt it was pretty stupid to use alcohol and operate machinery that can kill you with a lack of proper judgment (which alcohol impairs).
I limit my beers to about one per week or longer.  So, alcohol is and has been a limited menu item for some time.

They usually adjust your dosage to your diet and blood test results, so you'll be a pin cushion for a bit.  If you have a consistent diet, they adjust dosage levels to your eating habits.  Binging is not recommended, except by Kevorkian, perhaps.

I'm still not sure they'll let me fly while on warfarin.  But, the FAA usually just says no to cover their own ass, so I haven't asked yet. They'd be happier if no one flew so their safety record would be perfect.

Hope this helps,
Lloyd... (SOHC4 #11 Original Mail List)
72 500, 74 550, 75 550K, 75 550F, 76 550F, 77 550F X2, 78 550K, 77 750F X2, 78 750F, 79CX500, 85 700SC, GL1100

Those that learn from history are doomed to repeat it by those that don't learn from history.

Offline demon78

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Re: Rat Poison
« Reply #2 on: October 23, 2011, 01:50:00 PM »
Thanks TT. I've noticed that about the flying bureaucracy in both countries no fly no crash, good, no fix no fly, good, I could almost work up a "Pythonesque" sketch on that one, Imagine airplanes pushed along runways by specially trained actors and air terminals with all the delays and security we have now staffed by specially trained actors/ apes. I'll have to work on that one.
Bill the demon.

Offline KRONUS0100

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Re: Rat Poison
« Reply #3 on: October 23, 2011, 01:51:14 PM »
100mg atenolol, 175 mg of verappamil, and 10 mg of lisinopril every morning.
on aqverage i drink roughly 4 beers every night, and rum every now and again.  have had no problems, but thats just me.  I do have to watchout for papercuts, let alone the big nasty type cuts.
MATT
current bikes:  1976 CB750F, 1981 GS1100E
bikes owned:1981 GL1100I, 1990 GS500E, 1981 GS850, 1977 and 1979 GS750, 1974 CB750, 1975 CB750, and a 1982 GS750E

Offline tweakin

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Re: Rat Poison
« Reply #4 on: October 24, 2011, 09:30:22 AM »
In 1921, ranchers were dismayed at the sudden onset of lossage in their herds due to a strange condition: the animals bled to death. Small cuts failed to heal. The roughage cows eat will scratch their digestive systems, but unlike the normal case where such scratches are minor and readily heal, these scratches failed to heal and the animals died from internal hemorrhaging. What seemed odd was that the animals were being fed hay from fields that appeared not dissimilar from that of previous years. No sudden invasive plants of a poisonous nature had been found.

A researcher by the name of Karl Paul Link, working under the aegis of the Wisconsin Alumni Research Fund (WARF), did a careful analysis of the ensilage from ranches that suffered losses and those that did not. He discovered that a chemical, dicoumorin, found in the ensilage of sweetclover hay from those ranches suffering the losses, was a powerful anticoagulant. Dicoumarin is the result of a substance called coumarin, which is the chemical which gives new-mown hay its characteristic smell, being subjected to the heat and mold in a silo, and forming a double molecule. The year of the serious losses had been an unusually warm one after the ensilage was created. [This information is from Kingsley's book "Poisonous Plants", which is one of the first serious studies of the biology of plant toxins].

Link named this substance after the organization that supported his research. Hence the name warfarin.

In the mid-1940s, this substance was used as a rodenticide. Rats are quite intelligent, and when rats would see a number of dead rats around a poisoned bait (usually some fast-acting poison like arsenic or strychnine was used), they would say "This is a dangerous substance. Avoid it". This is known in the pest control trade as becoming "bait-shy".

However, rats are not all that intelligent. They are not, what is called in the perception trade, "time-binding". That is, a rat seeing another dead rat near some poison-laced bait concludes "This is trouble, avoid it". But a rat that dies three days later from internal hemorrhaging does not communicate "This is the consequence of that great meal I had on Tuesday". So as two rats are munching on warfarin-laced bait, they are talking about poor old Charley who died last week. "Stress, probably. That cat" or "These things just happen. And so young, too", but the association with the fact that he dined on the same bait they are eating is lost on them. So for decades, warfarin has been used as a rodenticide. One advantage of warfarin is that its effectiveness is based on proportion-to-body-weight. A 1kg rat or a 200mg mouse get a fatal dosage that might not be fatal to, and perhaps not even dangerous to, a 15kg dog or 30kg small child.

One of the problems of warfarin is the process that manufactures it tends to leave a number of deleterious impurities in the resulting product. When used as a rodenticide, this is not a major consideration. And these are only dangerous over a sustained period of time. But it was also determined that a good anticoagulant for human beings would be a Good Thing. The product trademarked Coumadin is a form of crystalline sodium warfarin that is created by a process that leaves no such impurities, and therefore is safe for long-term human consumption. Of course, since the patents on Coumadin have expired, many other firms now synthesize the medication, and call it by its generic name, "sodium warfarin". However, do not think that if you are on Coumadin/warfarin therapy that you can substitute rat poison; besides the impurities found in the warfarin used for that purpose, many other potentially fatal ingredients are used to enhance the effectiveness of the rodenticide, and none of these would be healthy to consume.

Warfarin was used in the 1950s as an anticoagulant for victims of heart attacks and strokes, but gained fame when it was used to treat President Dwight D. Eisenhower after his 1956 coronary (while in office).

Here is some more information on Warfarin.
http://ods.od.nih.gov/pubs/factsheets/coumadin1.pdf

There are newly approved alternatives to Warfarin that have no food, alcohol or drug interactions and do not require blood (INR) monitoring.  These new drugs have also been shown to be more effective than Warfarin in preventing stroke and or systemic embolism.

Offline demon78

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Re: Rat Poison
« Reply #5 on: October 26, 2011, 04:23:52 AM »
Thanks for the input guys, I've another question, do your feet hands and joints ache,whilst on this stuff and how about rashes?
bill the demon.

Offline TwoTired

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Re: Rat Poison
« Reply #6 on: October 26, 2011, 12:15:58 PM »
I was on warfarin for a year, then a year without, and now back on again.

No real rashes.  Some unrelated mild eczema on my calf, which was just dry skin/ due to climate and some chaffing.
The "skin" Doctor prescribed Clobetasol Propionate, which cleared that up in a couple weeks, and is no longer needed/used.

Joint ache and other pains have occurred during this time span with or without the Warfarin.
My 40-ish doctor diagnosed these as part of aging.  And, he didn't flinch at all with my stern stare.  Then mentioned something about living vs. dead, which, after contemplation, I decided probably was relevant after all.

Lloyd... (SOHC4 #11 Original Mail List)
72 500, 74 550, 75 550K, 75 550F, 76 550F, 77 550F X2, 78 550K, 77 750F X2, 78 750F, 79CX500, 85 700SC, GL1100

Those that learn from history are doomed to repeat it by those that don't learn from history.

Offline KRONUS0100

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Re: Rat Poison
« Reply #7 on: October 27, 2011, 08:41:21 AM »
definite joint pain in feet and kness.  i always thought it was because of the chloresterol meds tho.
MATT
current bikes:  1976 CB750F, 1981 GS1100E
bikes owned:1981 GL1100I, 1990 GS500E, 1981 GS850, 1977 and 1979 GS750, 1974 CB750, 1975 CB750, and a 1982 GS750E

Offline tweakin

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Re: Rat Poison
« Reply #8 on: October 28, 2011, 04:29:24 PM »
definite joint pain in feet and kness.  i always thought it was because of the cholesterol meds tho.
Muscle pain is a common condition with the statins (cholesterol med) but not joint pain.

Offline srbakker

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Rat Poison
« Reply #9 on: October 28, 2011, 04:57:19 PM »
If you get sick of monitoring your INR, ask your doc about dabigatran (Pradax in Canada).  Does the same job with some difference in side effect profile, with no monitoring.  It does cost more though.
1975 CB750 K5
2007 Triumph Tiger
2007 Triumph Speed Triple
1971 Kawasaki F7 175 Enduro
2000 Honda VFR800 (gone but not forgotten)