Author Topic: What jet needle position and main jets for this modified CB550F set up?  (Read 2091 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline eworth

  • Enthusiast
  • **
  • Posts: 147
Hey All,

Thanks in advance for any suggestions you can give on the following set up.

Have a 1977 CB550F with 069a carbs.   From what I've read, the original jet needle clip setting is the 2nd groove from the top of the carb and that was too lean on this model to start.

Well, she will be breathing much better once the following mods are completed and thought you all could give some suggestions on the best needle clip setting for it.    Do I drop down into the 3rd groove or the 4th?  Main jets of 105 or higher?

INDUCTION MODS:
Have the original plastic air plenum attached to the carbs but there is a conical K&N attached to that instead of the enclosed air filter box.

EXHAUST MODS:
Exhaust is now an original Jardine 4-1 exhaust.

ENGINE MODS:
CB650 Camshaft
Head is being ported and polished  along with matching the intake tubes to the cylinder head for improved flow.

Thinking I'll need 105 main jets?   

Any suggested main jet and needle jet clip position suggestions would be greatly appreciated!!!

Thanks,
Eworth

Offline TwoTired

  • Really Old Timer ...
  • *******
  • Posts: 21,802
Re: What jet needle position and main jets for this modified CB550F set up?
« Reply #1 on: October 30, 2011, 04:11:38 PM »
Have a 1977 CB550F with 069a carbs.   From what I've read, the original jet needle clip setting is the 2nd groove from the top of the carb and that was too lean on this model to start.
That is incorrect.  The stock carb settings were/are near perfect for the stock inlet and exhaust, which worked quite well for RPMs up to 9200.
I've got two of these F models in regular use.  They work excellent on stock jetting.  There's a slight bit of an issue with oxgenated fuel.  But, that is a government mandated sabotage of what was created in the 70's under government regulation.

INDUCTION MODS:
Have the original plastic air plenum attached to the carbs but there is a conical K&N attached to that instead of the enclosed air filter box.
If you can keep the filter clean, this works almost as well as the stock box with the filter box inlet opened up, for RPMs above 9000.
If you are going to flog the engine that hard frequently, better stock up on pistons and rings for frequent top overhauls.

If you put 1200 coins at one end of a teeter totter, how many coins of a different value will it take to balance?

All the fuel metering devices are calibrated to the throat vacuum levels created by the the stock cam timing and lift, the pressure drops caused by  filter membranes, inlet duct size, and the distance these membranes are from the vacuum source, as well as the effectiveness of the cylinder scavenging or pressure levels present in the exhaust system.  (More effective scavenging allows more oxygen availability for the next fire cycle, which in turn create demand for more fuel for it to pair off with.)

I don't think the K&N changes the carb throat vacuum too much over the stock arrangement up to 9000 RPM.  The cam can certainly do that, though.
I don't think anybody has posted the net carb throat pressure level change a 650 cam makes as compared to the 550 cam.
The 650 has more vacuum pressure demand.  However, it also uses larger carb venturis, which allows more effective pressure equalization.  So, you can't directly compare CB650 carb throat pressure to the CB550 Carb throat pressures.

Essentially, your combination of assembled parts is likely unique, so prediction is really just guesswork based on "feelings" rather than numbers.  Using an exhaust sniffer and dyno will create a fuel map for your set up.  Then you can address the various metering device adjustments to compensate for the changes made.
Anything else is just guesswork mixed with tuning prowess/skill.

I will add there is often quite a difference between actual prowess and anecdotal boasts.  If emotional or comparative terms are offered over repeatable test results, most likely you are witnessing boasts rather than skill.

Good luck!
Lloyd... (SOHC4 #11 Original Mail List)
72 500, 74 550, 75 550K, 75 550F, 76 550F, 77 550F X2, 78 550K, 77 750F X2, 78 750F, 79CX500, 85 700SC, GL1100

Those that learn from history are doomed to repeat it by those that don't learn from history.

Offline eworth

  • Enthusiast
  • **
  • Posts: 147
Re: What jet needle position and main jets for this modified CB550F set up?
« Reply #2 on: October 30, 2011, 04:24:11 PM »
That TT for the reply !!  Yes, probably a unique set up but thinking some may have done similar modifications and can speak to their experiences with it.

No intent on flogging this CB550 and I doubt I'll take her past 9000rpm.   Want to keep her in tact with these modifications.  No intent on taking it further than the list of changes mentioned above.  Hoping I see a noticeable difference in performance though.   ;D

My primary concern at this point is that I don't lean the engine out and cause damage once it's all back together..

Eworth

Offline Rgconner

  • Hot Shot
  • ***
  • Posts: 674
Re: What jet needle position and main jets for this modified CB550F set up?
« Reply #3 on: October 31, 2011, 12:31:25 PM »
Do a plug chop, that will help make sure you are running the proper mix.

Probably have to tinker with it a lot to get it right
1975 CB550K aka "Grease Monkey"

Offline Scott S

  • Global Moderator
  • Really Old Timer ...
  • *****
  • Posts: 8,230
Re: What jet needle position and main jets for this modified CB550F set up?
« Reply #4 on: October 31, 2011, 12:44:55 PM »
 Subscribed.
 I'll be doing a nearly identical set-up:

 -CB650 cam
 -CB650 oil cooler
 -UNI filter in stock air box
 -Pamco igntion
 -mild "street" port and polish, per the stuff on this site
 -(probably) a 0.50 or 1.00mm overbore
 -NOS Jardine 4-1

 I'd love to hear your experiences with the Jardine. Mine's still in the box.
'71 CB500 K0
'17 Triumph Street Scrambler
'81 Yamaha XS650

Offline eworth

  • Enthusiast
  • **
  • Posts: 147
Re: What jet needle position and main jets for this modified CB550F set up?
« Reply #5 on: October 31, 2011, 12:47:39 PM »
Ya, I figure it'll take a bit to dial'er in.    It's all apart right now.  Head is at the machinist.  By the time everything is done and reassembled, there will be snow on the ground here.  Give or take a month from now for completion.

Raised the needle and the clip is in the third notch from the top.

Think I'll just go ahead and put the 110 main jets in now and see what happens.   I have another set of identcal carbs.    Will set that one up with 105s and see what works better.

Offline eworth

  • Enthusiast
  • **
  • Posts: 147
Re: What jet needle position and main jets for this modified CB550F set up?
« Reply #6 on: October 31, 2011, 12:48:49 PM »
You'll love the Jardine 4-1.   Love the sound, looks great!!

Offline crazypj

  • I'm brill, me
  • Old Timer
  • ******
  • Posts: 4,466
  • first 100,000 miles. 1977 CB550F
Re: What jet needle position and main jets for this modified CB550F set up?
« Reply #7 on: October 31, 2011, 05:19:31 PM »
I don't remember what main jets are fitted to mine (either 105, 107.5 or 110?)
 I do remember that I had to raise the needle clip and raise float level 1mm because mid range wouldn't work properly (K&N's, cam, exhaust, etc)
I fake being smart pretty good
'you can take my word for it or argue until you find out I'm right'

Offline eworth

  • Enthusiast
  • **
  • Posts: 147
Re: What jet needle position and main jets for this modified CB550F set up?
« Reply #8 on: October 31, 2011, 05:33:22 PM »
Good info.  Just raised the needles yesterday.   Have some 105s and 110s    Still figuring on which to throw in.  Appreciate the info!!

Offline crazypj

  • I'm brill, me
  • Old Timer
  • ******
  • Posts: 4,466
  • first 100,000 miles. 1977 CB550F
Re: What jet needle position and main jets for this modified CB550F set up?
« Reply #9 on: October 31, 2011, 05:45:03 PM »
Raise the clip to DROP the needle or it gets rich mid-range with bigger main-jet
 I probably spent about 2 yrs messing with mine as the needle is such a PITA to adjust
I would ride it for a few months then mess with it some more until it was as good as I could get it
I fake being smart pretty good
'you can take my word for it or argue until you find out I'm right'

Offline eworth

  • Enthusiast
  • **
  • Posts: 147
Re: What jet needle position and main jets for this modified CB550F set up?
« Reply #10 on: October 31, 2011, 05:52:09 PM »
Yep, got it.  Thanks!   And since I have two sets of 069a carbs, will set them up a bit differently to speed up the tuning process.
« Last Edit: October 31, 2011, 05:54:47 PM by eworth »

Offline seanbarney41

  • not really that much younger than an
  • Really Old Timer ...
  • *******
  • Posts: 10,911
Re: What jet needle position and main jets for this modified CB550F set up?
« Reply #11 on: October 31, 2011, 07:41:36 PM »
Yep, got it.  Thanks!   And since I have two sets of 069a carbs, will set them up a bit differently to speed up the tuning process.
proper jetting is basically the scientific method, (i.e. use evidence like plug chop, performance numbers, etc. to form a hypothesis of how rich or lean the engine is at a given throttle position, then test the hypothesis by changing calibrations to correct, test again, etc.)...introducing two sets of carbs is gonna introduce a lot of extra variables imo, for example, if the fuel level in the float bowls is not perfectly identical between the two sets of carbs, it could screw things up...there are probably more variables too...like are both sets totally clean?...different slide and needle wear?...I would recommend bitin' the bullet and just do the required amount(probably alot)of pulling the same set of carbs on and off...
If it works good, it looks good...

Offline eworth

  • Enthusiast
  • **
  • Posts: 147
Re: What jet needle position and main jets for this modified CB550F set up?
« Reply #12 on: October 31, 2011, 07:54:46 PM »
Many good points you've made.    Will work with one set to keep variables to a minimum.!! 

Offline dave500

  • Really Old Timer ...
  • *******
  • Posts: 17,054
  • WHAT?no gravy?
Re: What jet needle position and main jets for this modified CB550F set up?
« Reply #13 on: November 01, 2011, 12:11:44 AM »
you dont need to remove the carbs to change jets or alter the needles.

Offline eworth

  • Enthusiast
  • **
  • Posts: 147
Re: What jet needle position and main jets for this modified CB550F set up?
« Reply #14 on: November 01, 2011, 04:50:01 AM »
Cool,   just figured it would be tough to get to things although I had never tried it.   Next time I'll leave them in place and give'r a go!!   Thanks for the tip!