Topic: Electric motorcycle. Is it really the future of transportation?

[Raul CB750K1]

I'm reading some lately about electric vehicles, and though there seems to be a lot of interest on them, I wonder whether they are truly an alternative.

I wonder if somebody of you has ever ridden an electric motorcycle and what's your opinion. Do you really think they are the future of transportation? What should an electric motorcycle offer you, so you would consider a swap? Noiseless running and cheap running cost seems to be a pro, limited range seems to be the major stumbling block, along with top speed. If you would use it for commuting, what would be the lower speed acceptable, and the lower range?

Maybe when such a point is reached is when the electric vehicle will finally take off. How long will it take?

[City Boy]

I have been following the electric vehicle developments with interest.I believe they will find a niche in the vehicle mix especially in the urban environment.The knocks against them re range and cost will both be addressed with mass production and improvements to battery technology.Increased gasoline costs that are inevitable will also help.I am watching closely the developments of the Tesla company who have taken over the ex GM/Toyota plant in Fremont California and are slated to introduce a lectric sedan shortly and are known now for their all electric Lotus based hot rod roadster.The sensations of riding or driving these things will take some getting used to and I do wonder how electricity rates will be affected if by chance they become wildly popular!Stay tuned,this should get interesting.   Rock On

[Raul CB750K1]

That's one of my points too. Price of things change as soon as there is a big demand.

Over here, diesel was half the price of gasoline because it was used mainly in trucks or diesel cars, which had much less performance but were chosen by those who put a lot of miles on them. Came TDI technology, gasoline performance with diesel fuel, and now diesel price is 1:1 with gasoline....

If the number of electric vehicles rise, the cost of electricity will rise too, and probably the cost of gas will drop. In any case, seems that having an alternative will be good because both energy suppliers will need to drop the price in order to get more users...

[fmctm1sw]

I considered buying a converted Geo Metro years back.  The big thing with them is range.  There was a guy that took the motor out of an old Yamaha (I think) and put deep cycle batteries in it on a site I was poking around on...

[dave500]

the only electric motor on a bike should be the starter motor.

[Gordon]

I wouldn't be totally opposed to owning a small electric scooter for short trips around town or to work (I work 3 miles from home), but for me a full size motorcycle absolutely has to be powered by internal combustion.  An electric vehicle is an appliance.  It has a job and serves a mundane purpose.  While I do use my motorcycles for basic transportation, the main reason I own and ride them instead of just always using the car is because they're anything but mundane. 

[Raul CB750K1]

It is clear that for long distance touring, an electric motorcycle is not an option today. I was talking about commuting. I would say that, in developed countries, a big percentage of bikes are used for commuting short to medium distances. If the range is enough, recharging the bike at home when you are back from work could be feasible.

From what I've read, electric bikes are anything but dull. Acceleration is similar to that of gasoline-powered bikes, and riding noiseless must be a different sensation, even for those of us who love our noisy bikes.

I guess it will take some time to get used to, not only about the peculiarities of running an electric bike, but also about the design -I for one love the looks of a gasoline engine, and the sight of a bulky box of batteries is not so appealling to the eye.

[fmctm1sw]

I was deep into this a few years back.  I had figured out how to calculate the size battery needed for distances and everything.  My commute to work is about 20 miles.  Very doable electric wise.  Electric motors are far more efficent than ICE engines.  There is a video of the "World's fastest electric bike" or something on youtube.  This dude took off like a missle...  and crashed into a car a few hundred yards away.  I would have no problem riding one.  Lot of up front costs though.  Those DC motors are expensive once you get any size to them at all.  Batteries too...  and the controller.  Noiseless is cool.  Nothing like sneaking up behind someone in my Prius and blowing the horn.  The new ones are supposed to make a buzzing niose or something. 

Here it is:  Worlds Fastest Electric Bike and Owner Crash

I've never had to sign in to see it though..       Ok, got that fixed.  He said 0-60 in under 1 second!

[Raul CB750K1]

I remember seeing that video before. "Killacycle", the creator is about to kill himself, never a bike was named so appropiately....


So fmctm1sw, you say you were very interested some time ago, but I get you finally didn't get into it. What was the reason for that? You found out they are not an alternative yet?

[Operator]

I was convinced that my old 350F was electric. It sounded like a sewing machine........

I would be very interested if the product is solid. We all have to change eventually and if I can put up a wind turbine on my property and provide myself with all the "fuel" I need, I can't see a reason not to convert.

But I will definately keep the K3 in the meantime.......

[fmctm1sw]

So fmctm1sw, you say you were very interested some time ago, but I get you finally didn't get into it. What was the reason for that? You found out they are not an alternative yet?

It was mainly the initial cost outlay and availability.  Anything even close to running condition was well over $5000.  I really didn't have time for a project either.  There was none available near me although I did see an old citi car one time in a yard by a church here.  They sell a kit for the geo metro.  Now you're getting me thinking about it again...   

[scottly]

If anyone is thinking of converting a VW (or Porsche 914) to electric, I have some motor adapter bell-housings on hand, as well as a couple of flywheel hub adapters...   

[Raul CB750K1]

I'm no tree hugger at all, and I feel that the Earth is a closed system. That is, everything is enclosed by the troposphere, and following the energy conservation theory, the amount of energy on earth is finite except but that "little" exception being the Sun sending its energy to the Earth.


My point is that the amount of anything under the troposphere has remained constant during millenia. If burning fuel now is generating CO2, the "fabrication" of oil should have consumed the same amount of CO". It is like the draught, you can have draught in an area for years, even for decades, but the water can't be evaporating for ever. It will have to get somewhere -air- and eventually it will have to fall down again -rain-.


My point is that my interest in the electric motorcycle doesn't come from the "green factor" alone, because I believe there is still place for the internal combustion engine. My interest comes from the cheap running cost, the technical point of view and also because they seem to be fun!!

fmctm1sw, what was your main reason? Ecology, or technical interest?

[Frostyboy]

http://www.youtube.com/v/I6dCR5Eht5M

[fmctm1sw]

fmctm1sw, what was your main reason? Ecology, or technical interest?

Money primarily.  I had figured out how much money it would cost me in electricity to charge.  The cost savings are substantial (especially when you consider I've always had large vehicles).  Gas prices had skyrocketed too.  I have electronics experience and while no engineer, I was confident I could figure out the batteries and charging and stuff.  I read a lot of arguments about pollution and the argument that charging the vehicle just shifts pollution to the power plant and all that.  Somewhere I found a paper on it when I was taking a college English course.  I would do one of those Metro conversions but they're obviously not a solution to "normal" driving.  You'd need it and another vehicle to get you more than 20 or 30 mile range.  You'd have to get used to a stripped down car too in order to maximize the benefit.  No power seats, heating and cooling issues (I've seen propane heaters in them though), no power steering, etc..

[Raul CB750K1]

Well, I was talking more electric motorcycles than electric cars. It is true that, with thermal plants that converts heat into electricity, you are burning fuel to generate the electricity needed for the electric motorcycle, thus it is true that you are moving away the fumes generation. That being said, if it is true that an internal combustion engine is only 20% efficient -because the remaining 80% is lost in the form of heat, mechanical losses etc-, a thermal plant is 50% efficient, therefore, if you burn the fuel to generate electricty, to run electric vehicles, it would be more efficient than burning the fuel locally if you catch my drift. That is, that you get more miles burning 1K gallons of fuel in a thermal plant and running electric vehicles, than using 1K gallons in your internal combustion engine.

I'm seriously considering giving a try to an electric motorcycle. I know the costs will exceed that of a "normal bike", but restoring a bike is also more expensive than buying a new one and I still do it, if only for the challenge it represents...  but only if I can get 70 or 80 mile range, otherwise it would not make sense to me.

[fmctm1sw]

I'm seriously considering giving a try to an electric motorcycle. I know the costs will exceed that of a "normal bike", but restoring a bike is also more expensive than buying a new one and I still do it, if only for the challenge it represents...  but only if I can get 70 or 80 mile range, otherwise it would not make sense to me.

Go for it.  If you can understand an ICE, you can figure out how to get an electric going.  Motor, batteries, charger, controller and wiring.  Not much more to it.  The challenge with bikes is that lead/acid batteries are heavy and bulky.  The weight will add up really fast on a bike if you want any kind of capacity out of it.  I remember reading it's prefered to use 6VDC batteries and with a 72 volt system you would need 12!  Lithium Ion batteries are out there but more expensive at this point (haven't looked in a while but I'm sure they're still more expensive than a lead/acid).  Here's a link to some electric bikes to give you an idea...

http://evtradinpost.com/index.php?method=showhtmllist&list=classifiedscategory&rollid=19&fromfromlist=classifiedscategory&fromfrommethod=showhtmllist&fromfromid=13&clearoff=1

[Raul CB750K1]

The advantage of smaller batteries is that you can accomodate them to an "irregular" shape as the body of a bike is, while bigger, bulkier batteries are more "square" and the result is more like the box of a delivery van....  You can put small batteries here and there to use the available space, while big batteries either fit or don't...

I watched that Isle of Man TT Zero challenge and the winner bike really looks the part. I'm more into economy and range than sheer power. I think I will go the conversion way -converting a regular motorcycle into electric rather than building one from the ground up- if only because it saves money and time.

Thanks for your insight everybody. If an electric bike is not an alternative today -and probably won't be in a near future-, I think it is the closest you will get in the next decades. Maybe if another volcano erupts and spew thousands of tons of toxic fumes to the atmosphere, some people will realize that the man-made pollution doesn't account for much, and having the pollution concern vanish, the electric vehicle project will be terminated- for the umpteenth time

[Retro Rocket]

some people will realize that the man-made pollution doesn't account for much,

I wouldn't be so sure of that mate.....

[faux fiddy]

I found a guy that made a 350f into electric. He had some stuff posted, I e-mailed him to see if he had any of the 350f stuff left.
No dice, I will try to find the link to his project.

Hi JP,
All the other parts from the bike are long gone. Sorry!
Yaaa...the "Electric Shark" is a hoot! I use it all the time.
Fred

[fmctm1sw]

The advantage of smaller batteries is that you can accomodate them to an "irregular" shape as the body of a bike is, while bigger, bulkier batteries are more "square" and the result is more like the box of a delivery van....  You can put small batteries here and there to use the available space, while big batteries either fit or don't...

Did you see that Yamaha at the bottom of that link?  That guy had 72 of those small "capacitor-looking" batteries in there.  The A/Hr rating of those is 25A/Hr.  The bigger golf cart batteries (T-106, etc) go 200+.  At about $40 a pop, that guy must have invested about $3000 USD in batteries.  But yeah, the smaller ones would be more versatile..

[dave500]

if our electricity prices keep going up at the rate they are an electric vehicle will cost near the same as a petrol one to recharge,its a conspiracy.

[Raul CB750K1]

some people will realize that the man-made pollution doesn't account for much,

I wouldn't be so sure of that mate.....

I meant "compared to what Nature can do"

They say that bio-diesel has zero impact, because even when it produces CO2 and burns oxigen, the plants it derives from had generated oxygen and consumed CO2 during their life cycle.

If the theory that oil was generated by animal and vegetable remains, if you burn fuel it should have zero impact too, shouldn't it?

[faux fiddy]

some people will realize that the man-made pollution doesn't account for much,

I wouldn't be so sure of that mate.....

I meant "compared to what Nature can do"

They say that bio-diesel has zero impact, because even when it produces CO2 and burns oxigen, the plants it derives from had generated oxygen and consumed CO2 during their life cycle.

If the theory that oil was generated by animal and vegetable remains, if you burn fuel it should have zero impact too, shouldn't it?

An individual's "carbon foortprint"  is what is of concern , I suppose. Using fossile fuels releases carbon that was otherwise locked up for the last 3 billion years or so.  I figure I need to get a woodstove hooked up soon. I can then burn my limbs (sometimes the ice storms make a bunch that get burned just to get rid of them). The would at least heat the abode. If they get piled up and rot they are still making greenhouse gasses, at a slower rate. I hear of people that heat their house with junk mail alone, BtW.

[Raul CB750K1]

some people will realize that the man-made pollution doesn't account for much,

I wouldn't be so sure of that mate.....

I meant "compared to what Nature can do"

They say that bio-diesel has zero impact, because even when it produces CO2 and burns oxigen, the plants it derives from had generated oxygen and consumed CO2 during their life cycle.

If the theory that oil was generated by animal and vegetable remains, if you burn fuel it should have zero impact too, shouldn't it?

An individual's "carbon foortprint"  is what is of concern , I suppose. Using fossile fuels releases carbon that was otherwise locked up for the last 3 billion years or so.  I figure I need to get a woodstove hooked up soon. I can then burn my limbs (sometimes the ice storms make a bunch that get burned just to get rid of them). The would at least heat the abode. If they get piled up and rot they are still making greenhouse gasses, at a slower rate. I hear of people that heat their house with junk mail alone, BtW.

If we leave religion aside and consider the theory that life started with the Big Bang, all that carbon was not locked up back then and even then, life went on -otherwise we wouldn't be here-. If we believe the theory of evolution, we should be descendants from the fittest that survived, and therefore, should be able to live under the same -or worst- conditions they lived in.

I have the feeling that even if we burn all the oil available, life on Earth would still be possible with not much concern. That oil was not underground millions of years ago if the theory is correct, and that oil had the form of another matter, and still life went on. Chemical reactions are nothing more than mathematical operations: aditions and substractions. Mix this and that and you get this molecule and that molecule, but at the end of the day, no molecule is generated from nowhere, and no molecule vanishes without a trace. If there is a given amount of poisonous sustance in the Earth, it has been here since the Big Bang, and will be here forever. It may have changed shape or mixed with something else, but it has been here before. You just have to make sure you don't get in touch with it.


"Poison" is an absolute word, but refers to a relative concept. You can have poisonous substances, but only in given amounts. Lead, mercury, all are poisonous, but put 0.00001 micrograms in your blood and you will still be alive tomorrow.

It is stupid not to use sources of energy just because the environmental impact is not zero, because there is no free lunch when it comes to natural resources. The key is to make sure that the impact is not poisonous enough.


My point is that I don't think the electric vehicle will be the future because the future must be green. I think the electric vehicle can be an alternative just because it can use natural resources more efficiently.

[Gordon]

My point is that I don't think the electric vehicle will be the future because the future must be green. I think the electric vehicle can be an alternative just because it can use natural resources more efficiently.

I think it's almost a guarantee that electric vehicles are the future.  The difference from how it's done today will be in how the energy is produced, transmitted to the vehicles, and stored.

[Retro Rocket]

My point is that I don't think the electric vehicle will be the future because the future must be green. I think the electric vehicle can be an alternative just because it can use natural resources more efficiently.

I think it's almost a guarantee that electric vehicles are the future.  The difference from how it's done today will be in how the energy is produced, transmitted to the vehicles, and stored.

I will disagree on this one guys seeings though coal is the major pollution problem,  and everyone charging up millions of cars won't help that at all.
Hydrogen is the way of the future, everything will eventually be run on it. We just need governments to stop propping up the ailing  Auto industry and spend that money on new technologies.

[faux fiddy]

Oh, but with OHMAMMA as president it's all about clean coal.  He said so...

[Gordon]

My point is that I don't think the electric vehicle will be the future because the future must be green. I think the electric vehicle can be an alternative just because it can use natural resources more efficiently.

I think it's almost a guarantee that electric vehicles are the future.  The difference from how it's done today will be in how the energy is produced, transmitted to the vehicles, and stored.

I will disagree on this one guys seeings though coal is the major pollution problem,  and everyone charging up millions of cars won't help that at all.
Hydrogen is the way of the future, everything will eventually be run on it. We just need governments to stop propping up the ailing  Auto industry and spend that money on new technologies.

I agree there's a good chance we'll be using hydrogen, but I don't think we'll be burning it in internal combustion engines, at least not to the extent we currently do with gas and diesel.  We'll be using it in fuel cells to create electricity to run electric motors. 

[tramp]

how about methane gas?
a bowl of beans and a suction device on the seat should be cheap

[Retro Rocket]

My point is that I don't think the electric vehicle will be the future because the future must be green. I think the electric vehicle can be an alternative just because it can use natural resources more efficiently.

I think it's almost a guarantee that electric vehicles are the future.  The difference from how it's done today will be in how the energy is produced, transmitted to the vehicles, and stored.

I will disagree on this one guys seeings though coal is the major pollution problem,  and everyone charging up millions of cars won't help that at all.
Hydrogen is the way of the future, everything will eventually be run on it. We just need governments to stop propping up the ailing  Auto industry and spend that money on new technologies.

I agree there's a good chance we'll be using hydrogen, but I don't think we'll be burning it in internal combustion engines, at least not to the extent we currently do with gas and diesel.  We'll be using it in fuel cells to create electricity to run electric motors.

Yes, i agree..

how about methane gas?
a bowl of beans and a suction device on the seat should be cheap

Some of our rubbish tips have methane generators running on top of buried rubbish, they insert pipes into the buried rubbish and use the methane released to run the plant...

[scottly]

Electric vehicles are becoming more of a viable option, due to the rapid advances in the electronic motor controls, as well as battery development. The device in the pic is a micro-stepping, pulse width modulated (PWM) stepper motor driver, used to accurately position the table of a milling machine. The equivalent "high tech" circuit board from 15 years ago took up about 6 times the space.
 

[dave500]

i dont want a pickle,,i just want to charge my motorsickle.