Author Topic: 74 550K0 running really lean? [Stock airbox + MAC 4-1]  (Read 10144 times)

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Offline Dimitri13

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74 550K0 running really lean? [Stock airbox + MAC 4-1]
« on: November 06, 2011, 03:59:18 PM »
After doing a bunch of searching and reading, MAC's claim for the 4-1 exhaust won't require a rejet is true (except on PD(?) K3 carbs).

I've been trying to get my bike to run right, but it'll only run normal with full choke until it's warmed up, then it'll run really rich, and not run without choke when it is.

I've tried adjusting the throttle slides and a/f screw all the way to the richest settings, but it hasn't helped. The needle jet is at stock height (4th notch from the top), but from what I've read it won't affect the idle mixture. Am I going to have to get bigger jets, maybe 105/110 and 42?

On a hopefully unrelated note, will missing float bowl gaskets affect anything except leaky carbs (mainly leaning out the mixture because of less vacuum pressure)?

This should be the last of my question threads, I promise :x

Offline d3buttz

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Re: 74 550K0 running really lean? [Stock airbox + MAC 4-1]
« Reply #1 on: November 06, 2011, 04:31:49 PM »
You should put the gasket back in for sure.  Put the carbs back to stock setting and make sure they are working correctly. Then make sure the timing is correct, plug gap, points are all in proper order- then jet accordingly.  And make sure the slides are bench synced correctly after the carb rebuild. Good luck!
« Last Edit: November 06, 2011, 04:45:32 PM by d3buttz »
http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php?topic=80508.0

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Offline Tews19

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Re: 74 550K0 running really lean? [Stock airbox + MAC 4-1]
« Reply #2 on: November 06, 2011, 04:56:33 PM »
Are you running on all cylinders? Maybe check the caps on the wires and see if they are making continuous contact. if need be, snip a 1/4'' off each wire..
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Offline Dimitri13

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Re: 74 550K0 running really lean? [Stock airbox + MAC 4-1]
« Reply #3 on: November 06, 2011, 05:28:03 PM »
d3: Just waiting on my replacement gaskets. I managed to mangle all four from my carb rebuilt kit. o-rings for a pentagon-shaped groove. whodathunkit? I adjusted the valves, plug gap, and timing (made a HUGE difference), bench synced the slides (not sure how much space there should be, so I left a few mm with the idle screw halfway out). I still need to do the ignition timing, I just don't have quite the proper tools to do a static adjustment, and I can't get it to idle properly to do a strobe adjustment.

Tews: I'm fairly certain I am, I just haven't done a compression test yet; still seeing if someone will lend me one. I'll check the plug caps though.

Online TwoTired

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Re: 74 550K0 running really lean? [Stock airbox + MAC 4-1]
« Reply #4 on: November 06, 2011, 05:33:22 PM »
After doing a bunch of searching and reading, MAC's claim for the 4-1 exhaust won't require a rejet is true (except on PD(?) K3 carbs).
If the baffle is retained in the MAC muffler, the stock settings work fine, along with the stock air box.

I've been trying to get my bike to run right, but it'll only run normal with full choke until it's warmed up, then it'll run really rich, and not run without choke when it is.
I read this five times, and I still don't know what you are trying to explain.  If you are saying you must leave the choke on all the time, this points to pilot circuit blockage.

How do you know it is running rich?  Do all the spark plugs exhibit the same combustion deposit pattern?

I've tried adjusting the throttle slides ...
This is pretty strange.  The throttle slide individual adjustments are done for vacuum sync purposes only.
Have you done a vacuum sync?

...and a/f screw all the way to the richest settings, but it hasn't helped.
The adjustment range of this screw is limited purposefully, by design.  It won't have much effect at all if the pilot jets, or the pilot circuit tunnels are blocked or impaired.  Did you "prove" these circuits were clear and flowing?

Am I going to have to get bigger jets, maybe 105/110 and 42?
Not if you clear the fault(s) in carbs.

On a hopefully unrelated note, will missing float bowl gaskets affect anything except leaky carbs (mainly leaning out the mixture because of less vacuum pressure)?
Aside from the fire hazard, the float bowls are at atmospheric pressure, gaskets or not.  What may have an effect is the fuel level in the carbs, if you are dumping it out faster that the float valve can keep up with the level changes.

Are you certain the metering jets are marked with the stock sizes and that they remain unaltered from their marked state?


Lloyd... (SOHC4 #11 Original Mail List)
72 500, 74 550, 75 550K, 75 550F, 76 550F, 77 550F X2, 78 550K, 77 750F X2, 78 750F, 79CX500, 85 700SC, GL1100

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Offline d3buttz

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Re: 74 550K0 running really lean? [Stock airbox + MAC 4-1]
« Reply #5 on: November 06, 2011, 05:39:56 PM »
The idle screw adjuster ( the one on the rack- not the little brass ones) should not be the the determined stop for the slides.  Use a 1/8 inch drill bit to determine the slide setting.  On the intake side of the carb it should be 1/8 of an inch, and it will look fully closed from the exit side of the carb. You need to adjust it starting from the  choke side over to  carb 1,2,3 using the flathead threaded adjusters that have the 8 mm ( or is it 10?) lock nuts. When it is set correctly you should have a 1/8 inch gap between the slide and body on all 4. Back off the idle screw before you start to make sure it's not affecting the slides seating.  The bench sync isn't perfect. but it is pretty  close to what is needed for the 4 carbs to be equal to eachother.  My suspicion is of course the bowl gasket and the slides are off and throwing the whole air fuel ratio for a loop.  The idle jets are responsible for idling. The slides are for 1/4 to full throttle. Which is most of your issiue right?
- definitely go thru all of two tireds questions- he knows his stuff. I'm just speculating from all of my noobie mistakes iv made over the years!
« Last Edit: November 06, 2011, 06:10:26 PM by d3buttz »
http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php?topic=80508.0

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Offline Tews19

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Re: 74 550K0 running really lean? [Stock airbox + MAC 4-1]
« Reply #6 on: November 06, 2011, 05:55:37 PM »
When I asked about running on all cylinders, this is in relation to all getting spark... Sometimes the caps become loose. therefore not making contact and having a cylinder loose power..... You may want to check to see if all caps are securely attached. thats all.
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Offline Dimitri13

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Re: 74 550K0 running really lean? [Stock airbox + MAC 4-1]
« Reply #7 on: November 06, 2011, 09:29:10 PM »
TT: Thanks again for such a detailed response (as always. You should really get an award).
The exhaust was installed, just as I got it, baffle and all.
What I'm basically trying to say is: when the engine is cold, running with full choke makes it run "normal" (meaning proper idle and throttle response), but when the engine heats up, it runs really rich, exactly like choke makes it run, but it won't run without choke. I figured it was running rich because of the excessive popping and smell from the exhaust, as well as the plug color when I pulled them this morning. What exactly is pilot circuit blockage? I'm assuming it's the entire pilot jet system (before and after the pilot jet)? What should I be doing to try remedying this? I cleaned them thoroughly when rebuilding them, but I didn't de-rust and line the tank.. And the more I read, the more I think I should've done that.
Well, when I adjusted the throttle slides, I assumed that would make the idle mixture richer/leaner, so it might idle without choke.
I don't know how I would prove the pilot circuit is clean/unobstructed.
The fuel is leaking out very slowly, if at all. If the bike is leaned over at a stoplight or on the side stand, it'll leak out, but straight up it's fine. I'm just waiting on the float gaskets.
All the replacement jets are marked 100/40 (or 38? I can't remember) from the K&L (I think that's where it's from) rebuild kit.

d3: Thanks for the advice. I'll definitely see what I can do when I yank the carbs for the float gaskets (airbox boots = >:( ).

Tews: Oh! Yes, they're all getting spark. I know what not getting a spark on one cylinder can do, lol. My #2 was leaking spark at the boot; wrapped it, and it fired right up.


Online TwoTired

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Re: 74 550K0 running really lean? [Stock airbox + MAC 4-1]
« Reply #8 on: November 06, 2011, 10:01:41 PM »
I don't know how I would prove the pilot circuit is clean/unobstructed.
The way I do it is with canned/pressurized carb cleaner. The ones with the red tube on the side.
With the pilot adj. screw and pilot jet removed, there are four holes into each pilot circuit; the air jet, the pilot jet hole, the pilot screw hole and the exit hole into the carb throat.  Plug two and squirt into any one of them, should have cleaner coming out the unblocked hole.  Do each hole in turn to prove that fluid can traverse between any and all holes.  Some do this with compressed air, but since air is transparent, it i diffficult to see the "proof".  However, liquid shooting out a hole under pressure is readily visible.


Lloyd... (SOHC4 #11 Original Mail List)
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Offline Dimitri13

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Re: 74 550K0 running really lean? [Stock airbox + MAC 4-1]
« Reply #9 on: November 06, 2011, 10:08:45 PM »
Ah, that makes sense. I'll definitely pick up another can of carb cleaner and try it out when I pull the carbs again.

If I happen to find that something is clogged, what can I do about it other than spray a ton of carb cleaner in the hole?

Offline w1sa

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Re: 74 550K0 running really lean? [Stock airbox + MAC 4-1]
« Reply #10 on: November 06, 2011, 10:57:28 PM »
My first check would be that fuel supply and (maintained) float bowl fuel height,  are both adequate......static and while engine is running....use clear tube method.

Offline Dimitri13

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Re: 74 550K0 running really lean? [Stock airbox + MAC 4-1]
« Reply #11 on: November 07, 2011, 12:17:27 AM »
Will do. I just replaced my fuel lines and have a bunch left over.

Offline Dimitri13

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Re: 74 550K0 running really lean? [Stock airbox + MAC 4-1]
« Reply #12 on: November 07, 2011, 12:44:45 AM »
Oh, looking at fuel filters.. OEM/NOS ones seem out of the question, so in-line fuel filters should be okay, right? Going to see how dirty they get, and judge the gas tank de-rust/line off that..

Offline Tews19

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Re: 74 550K0 running really lean? [Stock airbox + MAC 4-1]
« Reply #13 on: November 07, 2011, 06:30:02 AM »
Yes to in-line fuel filter. I use the smaller one that looks like  top.... Its angled at 90 degrees. Get that angle.
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Online TwoTired

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Re: 74 550K0 running really lean? [Stock airbox + MAC 4-1]
« Reply #14 on: November 07, 2011, 09:42:15 AM »
If I happen to find that something is clogged, what can I do about it other than spray a ton of carb cleaner in the hole?
I haven't found one that carb spray wouldn't clear with a bit of soaking or allowing the cleaner to dissolve the deposits.   Yes, I know that is counter to the instant gratification goal.  But, it probably took longer than an instant to create the blockage.   I expect corrosion won't be cleared by carb spray, though.  You might snake a wire through the passageways that you find blocked, to dislodge corrosion build up.

Oh, looking at fuel filters.. OEM/NOS ones seem out of the question, so in-line fuel filters should be okay, right?
They (in-lines) don't work as well as stock.  But, why are the stock ones "out of the question"?
I'll use the in-lines only in desperation...such as after the apocalypse.  Be aware, as the in-lines trap particles, they become flow restricted.  Which means you either have to flow test them at regular intervals or replace them at regular intervals.  I've never known anyone who uses them to actually have a maintenance schedule for added on in-line filters.  And, they certainly aren't install-and-forget as the stock ones are.

Also, the fuel is gravity fed to the carbs at the float valve level.  Any fuel line routed below that level, allows air to collect at the fuel line high points where it can't escape.  A fuel line full of air can lead to run time issues.
« Last Edit: November 07, 2011, 12:06:22 PM by TwoTired »
Lloyd... (SOHC4 #11 Original Mail List)
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Offline Dimitri13

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Re: 74 550K0 running really lean? [Stock airbox + MAC 4-1]
« Reply #15 on: November 07, 2011, 11:46:36 AM »
From what I've seen (eBay and NOS sites), in-tank fuel filters are nowhere to be found. Unless.. You're able to clean it out and restore it to nearly new..?

I'll still probably grab a couple (they're cheap as dirt) and see if my tank is contaminated enough to chemical treat it.

Thanks again, TT, you're awesome :D. Everyone else too.

Offline Tews19

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Re: 74 550K0 running really lean? [Stock airbox + MAC 4-1]
« Reply #16 on: November 07, 2011, 12:09:28 PM »
Dimitri, I am sorry for giving wrong information. i have been told by numerous shops the inline fuel filters were good. I am glad TT corrected me as I have learned valuable info.
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Offline Tews19

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Re: 74 550K0 running really lean? [Stock airbox + MAC 4-1]
« Reply #17 on: November 07, 2011, 12:16:13 PM »
Quick question then about the OEM fuel filter TT.... This is the screen that goes over the petcock correct? Also, I looked it up on my 78 550K and for some reason the screen doesnt look the same as the petcock screen on my 75 550F model. Currently my 78 doesnt have a screen over the petcock.
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Online TwoTired

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Re: 74 550K0 running really lean? [Stock airbox + MAC 4-1]
« Reply #18 on: November 07, 2011, 12:50:22 PM »
The 550 used three styles of fuel valve/filter combo.
The first in 1974 was just like the Cb500 valve/filter.  It had/has a sediment bowl and a screen to stop particles of certain size and larger from entering the fuel stream to the carbs.  Any filter will have a particle size rating.  And, the stock screen traps anything that won't fit through any metering orifice in the carbs.  I maintain that if the particles can flow all the way through the engine it really isn't much concern.

In 1975 the fuel valve changed and there was a "sock type" filter and stand pipe combo made of nylon (I think), which fit into the tank bung.  The bung was about 3/4 inch diameter.
This type avoided regular servicing intervals, and it still blocked particles finer than would fit through the carbs.  Further, the fuel sloshing washes the sock membrane to keep it flowing.  Sediment CAN still build up in the tank.  And if varnish builds up on the sock, from long periods of stale, rotten, fuel sitting in the tank, the tiny pores can be blocked.  Any machine can be destroyed by man.

In 1977, yet another fuel valve design was introduced. The tank bung size was reduced to about 5/8 diameter, and a more rigid and robust nylon based filter tube was placed in the tank, surrounding the metal stand pipe tube that protrudes from the fuel valve.
As before, the filter is self washing to maintain flow.  It still can fall victim to varnish and neglect.

I have examples of all these filter types, and they still work as new after 30-ish years.  But, they also had periodic fuel replacement, to keep varnish from occurring.

The varnish makes the sock brittle so it cracks or tears upon removal.  It probably can be saved if soaked in carb cleaner before extraction is attempted.
If the tank is rusty, jagged bits can also damage the filter sock.

The nylon tube type can be very difficult to extract from a rusty and or varnished tank bung.  It takes patience and the appropriate chemicals to either remove the rust first, or dissolve the varnish before extraction is attempted.
It seems few have this sort of patience.  And, I am guilty of destroying a couple before I learned what the issue really is with aged, neglected components needing restoration.

How many people would think of soaking the in-tank filter in carb cleaner for a day, and then some metal prep to convert rust, BEFORE removing the fuel valve and filter?

When in a hurry, damage often happens.

Hope this helps,
Lloyd... (SOHC4 #11 Original Mail List)
72 500, 74 550, 75 550K, 75 550F, 76 550F, 77 550F X2, 78 550K, 77 750F X2, 78 750F, 79CX500, 85 700SC, GL1100

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Offline luap

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Re: 74 550K0 running really lean? [Stock airbox + MAC 4-1]
« Reply #19 on: November 07, 2011, 02:00:32 PM »
did the bike run fine before you put the mac 4int1 on? able to use the choke properly closed no air to fire up an open butterflies when bike is warmed up? If your having to run the bike with butterflies closed then to me it sounds like your running to lean or to much air not enough fuel, if you think your to rich try giving the bike some more air
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Offline Dimitri13

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Re: 74 550K0 running really lean? [Stock airbox + MAC 4-1]
« Reply #20 on: November 08, 2011, 12:20:47 AM »
Thanks again TT. I'll make sure I take care and time to extract the filter.

luap: It ran terrible before I put the exhaust on. The PO had it in terrible shape, and as I was giving it a full service I put the exhaust on, so personally, I haven't seen it run properly.

Offline Dimitri13

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Re: 74 550K0 running really lean? [Stock airbox + MAC 4-1]
« Reply #21 on: November 08, 2011, 08:03:47 PM »
So.. I believe I found a contributing factor for it dying out when throttle was applied. Somehow I forgot to put a slow jet back in one of the carbs the last time I assembled them ...

But I'm cleaning them out one more time and checking all the adjustments. Anyone have any tips for putting the float gaskets in? Round peg square hole and all..

Online TwoTired

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Re: 74 550K0 running really lean? [Stock airbox + MAC 4-1]
« Reply #22 on: November 08, 2011, 10:25:58 PM »
Anyone have any tips for putting the float gaskets in? Round peg square hole and all..
I use a product called Gaskacinch. It's sort of like a soft contact cement.  Trowel it into the groves with a flat toothpick.  Then put a thin coat on one side of the oring.  let dry.  Place a sheet of paper between the parts and then position the gasket where you want it.  Then slowly, incrementally slide out the paper as you mash the oring into the groove.
Lloyd... (SOHC4 #11 Original Mail List)
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Offline Dimitri13

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Re: 74 550K0 running really lean? [Stock airbox + MAC 4-1]
« Reply #23 on: November 08, 2011, 10:33:51 PM »
Hm.. If I can find that when I'm out tomorrow, I'll definitely give it a shot. I did manage to get one gasket in nicely by using some petroleum jelly, suggested in a carb thread.

Offline Dimitri13

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Re: 74 550K0 running really lean? [Stock airbox + MAC 4-1]
« Reply #24 on: November 09, 2011, 10:19:52 PM »
Well, I got the carbs back together. There was a bunch of gunk in one of the float's fuel passage. Everything's adjusted according to the book. The jets are indeed 100/38. The floats are even on both sides (measured both @ 22mm with a micrometer). Used an 1/8" drill bit to bench sync the slides.

Put them on with the stock airbox, and started it up. Seems like it's still running lean, as it still won't run without choke. I haven't messed with the a/f screws yet though. I also noticed when I was putting the carbs back together, the idle screw seemed that it needed to be screwed almost all the way in (fully compressing the spring) to make contact with the slide arm (?).. I don't remember it being that far out, did I mess something up?

I still can't figure out why it's running lean though :(