Author Topic: CB750 Go Fast Engine Ideas  (Read 13431 times)

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Offline chewbacca5000

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CB750 Go Fast Engine Ideas
« on: November 14, 2011, 07:45:23 AM »
I am looking for some good go fast ideas for my CB750 engine rebuild project.  So far I have a Weisco 810 /811 kit.  I also have a Barnett Clutch Kit and heavy duty springs.

I am looking for an engine that is very quick with a nice power bump.  The Weisco 64mm pistons have huge valve cutouts which will support any size cam I like.  Obviously I want more power, but not at the expense of quickness / Throttle response

I am considering the following parts and want to know if any will help with my goal of instant throttle response "ITR"

1. Cycle X Lightened and Balance Crankshaft $289
2. CR 29 Carbs $700 to $900
3. Cycle X Power Arc Ignition $349
4. Cycle X Super Flow Valves $149
5. Web Cam .360/.360 270°/270° $220

Much Thanks!



Offline Rigid

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Re: CB750 Go Fast Engine Ideas
« Reply #1 on: November 14, 2011, 07:49:07 AM »
The most cost effective improvement to performance on any motorcycle is to lighten the weight of the rider. 
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Offline ekpent

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Re: CB750 Go Fast Engine Ideas
« Reply #2 on: November 14, 2011, 07:53:17 AM »
You will need some porting and headwork to get the most out of the cam and other goodies. Think I would use the CR carb money on that and try working with the stockers first. Heavy duty studs and maybe some good rods if you are going to be beating on it hard.The list can go on and on. Adjustable cam sprocket,new rubber bits etc etc.
« Last Edit: November 14, 2011, 07:56:59 AM by ekpent »

Offline chewbacca5000

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Re: CB750 Go Fast Engine Ideas
« Reply #3 on: November 14, 2011, 08:29:13 AM »
Guess, I'd better start laying off on the donuts before anything else.  I don't plan on betting on it that much so I guess I can forget the rods.  How much head work and cost will I need to get the most out of a cam?  Do you know anyone who ports heads?

Offline ekpent

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Re: CB750 Go Fast Engine Ideas
« Reply #4 on: November 14, 2011, 10:26:24 AM »
Here is your first homework assignment young racer  :) http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php?topic=53226.0


 Ps-Had a friend who ran a Wiseco 811 Kit and it ran very well. Wasn't the size 810 or 811cc what Pops Yosh liked best ??
« Last Edit: November 14, 2011, 10:31:07 AM by ekpent »

Offline grcamna2

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Re: CB750 Go Fast Engine Ideas
« Reply #5 on: November 14, 2011, 10:42:37 AM »
I am looking for some good go fast ideas for my CB750 engine rebuild project.  So far I have a Weisco 810 /811 kit.  I also have a Barnett Clutch Kit and heavy duty springs.

I am looking for an engine that is very quick with a nice power bump.  The Weisco 64mm pistons have huge valve cutouts which will support any size cam I like.  Obviously I want more power, but not at the expense of quickness / Throttle response

I am considering the following parts and want to know if any will help with my goal of instant throttle response "ITR"

1. Cycle X Lightened and Balance Crankshaft $289
2. CR 29 Carbs $700 to $900
3. Cycle X Power Arc Ignition $349
4. Cycle X Super Flow Valves $149
5. Web Cam .360/.360 270°/270° $220

Much Thanks!
When you say " I want more power,but not at the expense of quickness/Throttle response"; do you mean like "Off the line & good low end response" possibly ??
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Offline Jerry Rxman Griffin aka MuthaF'er

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Re: CB750 Go Fast Engine Ideas
« Reply #6 on: November 14, 2011, 11:23:14 AM »
I wouldn't spend money on valve replacement unless it was necessary then I'd have larger 33.5mm intakes installed with porting in the process. Stronger valve springs too! If you really wanted to dump a bunch of money into the head you could do a MRieck Stage 4 job. Doesn't get any better than that If you do the head work you might want to install a more serious cam than what you have listed.
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Offline MCRider

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Re: CB750 Go Fast Engine Ideas
« Reply #7 on: November 14, 2011, 12:50:06 PM »
IMO: its all for naught if you don't do the head. I even put it ahead of the piston kit, though together is nice. I've had a few ported heads. The difference even on a stocker is significant, and it makes everything else perform to its optimum, like a cam, pipe, carbs, valves, (smaller stems, oversize inlet) . The head is first.

Doesn't need to be a full blown stage 4, but a stage 1 is required. IMO
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Offline Rigid

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Re: CB750 Go Fast Engine Ideas
« Reply #8 on: November 14, 2011, 01:04:36 PM »
+1 on the head.  People, for some reason, avoid digging into the head and getting those valves and ports right.  Basic head work is beneficial even on stockers with more than 20K on them. Seats get pitted, and the valve seals are brittle as carbon after 30 + years.
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Offline RRRToolSolutions

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Re: CB750 Go Fast Engine Ideas
« Reply #9 on: November 14, 2011, 04:19:30 PM »
I have a killer 836 and I give most of the credit to the head work/porting. We had a debate some years ago on which attribute gave the biggest bang for the buck and most said displacement (from 736cc to 836cc), but all agreed it would be felt at the lower to mid-ranges. Everyone agreed that displacement would be a waste in the upper ranges without porting.

Somewhere is an old technical article from Jerry Branch (Branch Flow Works) and his findings and charts are accurate to this day. Unfortunately, the link to that no longer works. It shows that the exhaust ports hit a wall near the 7,000 rpm range. Cams, valves, pistons, carbs - nothing improved that flow until the ports were re-shaped and flow through the head improved.

I will caution you though, at rpms above 8,000 - you start taxing the factory supplied rod bolts. They become the weak link when rpm goes into the red. Buzz told me 10 times "it isn't about if, but when" you'll lose an engine to rod failure above 8,000 rpm. Now, he is a good salesman, but losing a complete engine - head and case with a thrown rod is bad - dropping 3 quarts of oil right in the path of my rear tire in the mountains is worse!

My build took two teardowns. The first was with the stock carbs and those did great - I mean up to 8,000 they were actually "better" in all respects than my CR29's. My bike was a monster when the tach got to 8,000 with the porting and stock carbs, but as it was coming alive - I was shutting it down in fear of losing a rod cap. The porting opened up so many of the other attributes - headers, cam, titanium valvetrain, 836 Wiseco, 10.5/1 compression, that those rods and their 14 lbs max-torque bolts became a nightmare. For the 2nd build (at 600 miles) APE studs top/bottom, Carrillo rods, and heavy-duty clutch springs went in there. That was 5 years ago and the bike still rips today. Porting must happen - too much testimony here and 1st hand experience not to do it. Don't try it yourself, bigger and smoother is not the goal - the flow and velocity have to increase. As you make that decision, you'll face big ports for max high-rpm filling that come alive at the peak of rpm or smaller ones for high volumetric filling earlier and huge gains in torque at highway speeds. That choice is up to you. Be sure that you match your components for the same delivery goals. A wild cam and big carbs don't work well on mild porting and vise-versa, if that big number is your goal, you'll need the big ports, the longer duration/lift cam and carbs to match.

Good luch with it. Just remember, it never ends  :'(

Gordon
 
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Offline scottly

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Re: CB750 Go Fast Engine Ideas
« Reply #10 on: November 14, 2011, 05:30:54 PM »
From another point of view about whether to port, or not to port, I'm quite pleased with the performance of my 836, with cam, Weber carbs, 4-1, and stock K1 head. Maybe the reason it has survived for 30+ years with stock rods (+polished beams) and the original K1 rod bolts is because I never ported the head? 
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Offline tweakin

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Re: CB750 Go Fast Engine Ideas
« Reply #11 on: November 14, 2011, 06:05:13 PM »
Amen...
I wouldn't spend money on valve replacement unless it was necessary then I'd have larger 33.5mm intakes installed with porting in the process. Stronger valve springs too! If you really wanted to dump a bunch of money into the head you could do a MRieck Stage 4 job. Doesn't get any better than that If you do the head work you might want to install a more serious cam than what you have listed.

Offline RRRToolSolutions

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Re: CB750 Go Fast Engine Ideas
« Reply #12 on: November 14, 2011, 06:59:40 PM »
Scottly, if the Jerry Branch article is accurate, the stock head would not flow well enough to make power over 8,000 rpm, so redline could only be exceeded in the first 2~3 gears and unless you just wanted it to self-destruct, you would make a shift in the peak of your curve for better results, right? Not bad at all and as you say - longivity/30 years.

Introduce porting to the mix and the engine takes on a different personality. With completely stock gearing, my front comes off the ground at 8,000 in 1st and 2nd with just roll-on. The rush/pull doesn't come off until I've hit 9,500 and I'm good to 11,000 where my Dyna 2000 comes in to control the party. It would not live with the stock rods and regular exploits to that rpm on a regular basis. The CB750 is an amazing, durable engine and with porting - can serve some newer bikes a healthy dose of taillight...

Tweakin - I love your build photos and that frame kit is perfect. Nice job!

Gordon 
« Last Edit: November 14, 2011, 07:01:20 PM by Ilbikes »
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Offline chewbacca5000

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Re: CB750 Go Fast Engine Ideas
« Reply #13 on: November 14, 2011, 07:10:33 PM »
Scotty I'd really be interested to know how your ridding experience compares to Gordon's.  Does your font wheel go off the ground with a simple roll on the Throttle?  With 30+ years longevity you must be doing something right.

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Re: CB750 Go Fast Engine Ideas
« Reply #14 on: November 14, 2011, 07:22:10 PM »
This might be the Jerry Branch CB750 porting article from 1971 that’s being talked about:
 
http://draftcycleworks.blogspot.com/2010/09/porting-honda-head.html
 
If not, here’s another article about CB750 porting:
 
http://www.hondachopper.com/garage/articles/porting/page1.html

Offline RRRToolSolutions

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Re: CB750 Go Fast Engine Ideas
« Reply #15 on: November 14, 2011, 07:28:26 PM »
Chewy, I can let you hear what and old 1974 Honda sounds like at 11,000 rpm. I have some old Youtube clips I did back in 2009. This was a slow start at a confused intersection where I intentionally reved over the peaks just to make this audible record. Listen closely and you'll hear the Dyna 2000 activate it's adjustable rev-limiter at the 11,000 mark. I backed off at an indicated 120 - at twice the legal limit, I'd have to spend some nights in jail if caught..

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Offline grcamna2

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Re: CB750 Go Fast Engine Ideas
« Reply #16 on: November 14, 2011, 07:39:23 PM »
Great sounding Machine !
75' CB400F/'bunch o' parts' & 81' CB125S modded to a 'CB200S'
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Offline scottly

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Re: CB750 Go Fast Engine Ideas
« Reply #17 on: November 14, 2011, 07:41:57 PM »
The reason I first switched to club-mans was it made it easier to keep the front wheel on the ground. ;) Gordon's bike makes more power at a higher RPM than mine, due to the porting. To support the higher revs, he also had to beef up the bottom end. As has been said before, speed costs money; how fast do you want to go? ;D
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Offline HondaMan

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Re: CB750 Go Fast Engine Ideas
« Reply #18 on: November 14, 2011, 07:55:38 PM »
Typically, boring to 836cc adds about 8 HP for low-compression pistons and about 10-11 with high-compression ones, if nothing else is done. Interestingly, boring to 811cc also adds about 8 HP if nothing else is done. Also interestingly: boring to 0.5mm adds about 5-7 HP if the engine has more than 10k miles on it.

For retaining the oil-leak free engine long term, the 811 kit is real hard to beat in the "big bore" family of mods. A very carefully done 836 engine can stay oil-leak free for quite a while, but often not as well as the smaller displacements. The extra heat expansion of the top end with the 836+ kits causes the leak issues over time. Something to consider...

In my experience, nothing is as effective, for the effort, as porting in the K2 and later heads. That said, if the engine is 811 or smaller, the swirl-charge head design will yield a flatter powerband (something NOT covered in the Branch Flowmetrics magazine articles I've seen, but it is in some of his later publications) and more even throttle response. So, if you bore to 836 or more, changing the head to a hemi will yield more torque up to about 9000 RPM (stock cam), but selecting the right cam (and port job with polished valves) with the smaller bores yields a better result with the swirl guides left in the head. This is because the swirl imparts a longer push on the piston than the faster-burning hemi setup, so the powerband extends further for a given cam.

All of this probably sounds a little disconnected from the general topic, but I bring it up to point out that many have bored as far as 836cc, only to get beaten by their buddy's stocker. When I build these engines for power, I only go big-bore if the customer specifically asks for it: in the 0.5mm overbore (749.6cc total displacement) with the right port job, 225 degree cam, CR29 carbs, velocity stacks, megaphone pipes, and stronger valve springs with lighter keepers, 90 HP is possible in an engine that will still deliver 50,000 miles, if not thrashed constantly.  ;)
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Offline Retro Rocket

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Re: CB750 Go Fast Engine Ideas
« Reply #19 on: November 14, 2011, 07:59:32 PM »
The reason I first switched to club-mans was it made it easier to keep the front wheel on the ground. ;) Gordon's bike makes more power at a higher RPM than mine, due to the porting. To support the higher revs, he also had to beef up the bottom end. As has been said before, speed costs money; how fast do you want to go? ;D

You sit a little further back too Scott, that would make it easier to lift the front....And.....whats wrong with a little breeze under the front wheel...... ;D

Quote
For retaining the oil-leak free engine long term, the 811 kit is real hard to beat in the "big bore" family of mods.

Don't forget the Billet blocks Mark, i will be pretty pissed off if my 1000cc mega dollar engine leaks.... :o ;)
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Offline scottly

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Re: CB750 Go Fast Engine Ideas
« Reply #20 on: November 14, 2011, 08:15:47 PM »
90 HP is possible in an engine that will still deliver 50,000 miles, if not thrashed constantly.  ;)
90 HP with stock rods?
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Offline MCRider

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Re: CB750 Go Fast Engine Ideas
« Reply #21 on: November 14, 2011, 10:52:46 PM »
Thanks HM, great information as always!

quote " if not thrashed constantly" end quote

The key to rod life I think, is to self limit the rpms. If you can keep it below 8500, stock rods will probably last. But when you've got it to use, its awful hard not to.

I had a Yosh 750cc piston kit (hi comp, 2 rings, slipper skirt) Yosh ported head, valve springs, Weber carbs, RB Racing Bol d"or replica pipe, lightened and balanced crank, stock rods. Don't know if i was making 90hp or not, but my endurance race partner bent a stock rod. But i suspect he was revving much higher then I could. He was a pro sprint car racer and routinely turned 8 seconds faster than me on a 2 miintue track. That thing would rev to the moon, but I never went more than 8500, I susppect he went to where the valves would float then shifted.
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Offline chewbacca5000

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Re: CB750 Go Fast Engine Ideas
« Reply #22 on: November 15, 2011, 06:05:16 PM »
Wow! Tons of great info here!  Just done reading all the Jerry Branch Articles and it really has me wondering what kind of CFM I would be able to get out of my head.  Do any of you guys know the before and after CFMs for your porting jobs.  Also, does this head look like it might have had some work done to it?  And what kind of compression does this piston look like? High, Low, Average. It has a dome shaped top with deep valve cutouts.

Thanks to all!

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Re: CB750 Go Fast Engine Ideas
« Reply #23 on: November 15, 2011, 06:10:20 PM »
Forum member MRieck is your man, he is probably the best guy on the planet for head work on our bikes and he is readily accesible on this forum...Here is his profile, PM away... ;)

http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php?action=profile;u=49

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Offline andy750

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Re: CB750 Go Fast Engine Ideas
« Reply #24 on: November 15, 2011, 06:21:47 PM »
To see Mikes work and see what a port job can do with new cam, 810cc pistons, stock carbs, stock rods, stock airbox, stock HM300s then go here:

http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php?topic=32093.100

Dyno results = 73.5 hp (rear wheel) - could be improved with revised clutch, new rear tire and new chain - and just discovered swingarm bushings are shot ;) Pulls strong above 5000 rpm and my own personal top speed is 104 mph (by GPS) before I backed off - but had more.

Good luck
Andy
 
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2. CB750/810cc K2  - road racer with JMR worked head 71 hp
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