Topic: Dyna S Versus Cycle X High Performance Ignition

[AbbyRider]

Who cares about "more HP" or "better fuel economy". From what I've heard, cold starts using Hondaman's or Pamco's units is better, and so is idling. Sometimes "performance" isn't always about speed or saving money.

[Retro Rocket]

Hondaman's ignition relies on the mechanical ( stock ) points along with it's own electronics for it's reliability record..... which IMO is waaay up there with any other aftermarket mod........
Hey I've already been called " a stupid bastard " ( Retro Rocket ) on ignition threads for suggesting that aftermarket ign. mods are 'fashion' items only... none can prove more HP or fuel economy over the stock points and their 40 yr. proven reliability .... but I understand that some folks just have to have them. The big argument is always... 'I don't want to fool with my points for 10,000 miles instead of 3,000 miles ( great argument , that one  0 or I don't want points at all but am O.K. with adding electronics where not necessary  'cos it must be better.

Well spanner, with  adjustable ignition curves,  i can guarantee you that you will be able to squeeze more HP out of your bike. Its about time you realized that points are old tech, yes they work but if they were better we would still have them in everything.  Explain why racers, drag racers and just about any performance orientated machine has electronic ignition, going by your theories they must all be idiots....   Obviously you don't think its better, every time one of these threads start you carry on with the same old rubbish but every motorcycle manufacturer and car and bus and truck, use electronic ignitions, oops, forgot my boat motor, yep, it has electronic as well....We are all wrong guys and Spanner knows everything......    Yes Abbey, cold starts are better as well....

[pamcopete]

Hondaman's ignition relies on the mechanical ( stock ) points along with it's own electronics for it's reliability record..... which IMO is waaay up there with any other aftermarket mod........
Hey I've already been called " a stupid bastard " ( Retro Rocket ) on ignition threads for suggesting that aftermarket ign. mods are 'fashion' items only... none can prove more HP or fuel economy over the stock points and their 40 yr. proven reliability .... but I understand that some folks just have to have them. The big argument is always... 'I don't want to fool with my points for 10,000 miles instead of 3,000 miles ( great argument , that one  0 or I don't want points at all but am O.K. with adding electronics where not necessary  'cos it must be better.

If you have no spark, the engine won't run. If you have a weak spark, the engine doesn't run very well, power and fuel economy are poor, so it stands to reason that if you have a stronger spark due to using an electronic ignition, then the engine will run better with more power and economy. The upper limit of this improvement is when you have achieved 100% burn of the mixture in the cylinder.
An electronic ignition system produces a hotter spark with a longer duration and a faster rise time. This hotter spark then ignites more of the mixture to produce a larger initial kernel of flame that then goes on to ignite the rest of the mixture in the cylinder. Just think of lighting your camp fire with a bigger match. The flames get bigger faster. There is only a very short period of time available to light the fire in the cylinder. If you don't start with a larger spark, then less of the mixture is ignited. In other words, the amount of mixture that is actually ignited is proportional to the intensity of the spark. If you want more power and better fuel economy, then you have to burn more of the mixture that is sucked into the cylinder.

[Eddie]

I'm thinking Dyna, when they test their uints coming back for warranty, are not applying a heat gun to test it under engine conditions.....you could always carry a can of freeze spray with..  ; )

[bluezboy]

 Wow, I'm amazed at how many of us out here have Dynas that have failed, I think we should pick a day to have an on-line Dyna Funeral.

[Jeff.Saunders]

Going back 2-3 years ago, Dynatek did have a problem with some of the units.  They changed the design a little and ended up with some problems on both the Dyna-S and Dyna 2000 pickups.  These appear to have been resolved as we've heard of very few problems in the past year.

When the ignitions do fail, it's often caused by the charging system of the bike.  The Dyna-S can be damaged by both high voltage and not getting enough voltage.

Many of the failures we've seen have been caused by the regulators failing.  You should check the voltage with the bike running to ensure it's not going above 14v when you bring the RPM up over 4000 rpm.  If the voltage climbs past 15v the regulator is toast.  Not only can you damage the igntions and coils,  but cook batteries, fry wiring and blow bulbs.

It's also key to get adequate voltage at the coils - if you check the voltage at the battery, you should see over 12.5v with a healthy battery.  Then check the voltage from the switched power feed into the coils going back to the battery - you need better than 11 volts to get a decent spark.  Cleaning all the electrical contacts can bring the voltage back to serviceable.

I have a new Dyna-S on my Z1 - this is a future version where they have reworked the pickups.  It's on an extended test for them before they launch the new version.

Dynatek can be hard to get in touch with.  Bear in mind they are a very small company - there are just 4 people in the office - so they can get backed up during the busy season.

[Rgconner]

Now that we have had a few manufactures chime in:

Can any of you provide:

A 3 round test: Device Off, device On, Device Off (to eliminate any changes introduced by the devices) Installation done by a third party Honda certified mechanic who only uses the documentation provided by the vendor and Honda and is unaware of the test.

With dyno runs, raw data provided, 5 runs minimum.

Proper road based fuel economy tests, with the driver unaware of what system he is running, stock or your product.

Without that sort of scientific data, the claims are just marketing when they say both fuel improvement and more power. I have no doubt you can get either by playing with the ignition mapping, but both?

Not likely, unless the bike had ignition problems in the first place that are fixed by addition of the system.

Disclaimer: I own the HM system. I am slightly disappointed by his claim of more upper end power, but at least he is not claiming himself, but what customers report from the "butt dyno".  All of his other claims on his site are provable, mainly because only two of them are subjective: Easier starting and less "coldblooded-ness". All the rest of the information is specifications and design points.

[MRieck]

Going back 2-3 years ago, Dynatek did have a problem with some of the units.  They changed the design a little and ended up with some problems on both the Dyna-S and Dyna 2000 pickups.  These appear to have been resolved as we've heard of very few problems in the past year.

When the ignitions do fail, it's often caused by the charging system of the bike.  The Dyna-S can be damaged by both high voltage and not getting enough voltage.

Many of the failures we've seen have been caused by the regulators failing.  You should check the voltage with the bike running to ensure it's not going above 14v when you bring the RPM up over 4000 rpm.  If the voltage climbs past 15v the regulator is toast.  Not only can you damage the igntions and coils,  but cook batteries, fry wiring and blow bulbs.

It's also key to get adequate voltage at the coils - if you check the voltage at the battery, you should see over 12.5v with a healthy battery.  Then check the voltage from the switched power feed into the coils going back to the battery - you need better than 11 volts to get a decent spark.  Cleaning all the electrical contacts can bring the voltage back to serviceable.

I have a new Dyna-S on my Z1 - this is a future version where they have reworked the pickups.  It's on an extended test for them before they launch the new version.

Dynatek can be hard to get in touch with.  Bear in mind they are a very small company - there are just 4 people in the office - so they can get backed up during the busy season.

A separate relay to the coils really helps out in regard to power to the coils. What could possibly go wrong with a 40 year old regulator? 

[Spanner 1]

Nothing wrong with the stock reg., M.Rieck !.... operates as designed and will allow voltage variations which stock ign. is impervious to !.... any later  stock electronic igns. all have a solid state reg. which 'clamps' the voltage at a steady 14.5V (+/- a fraction ).... It's obvious that elect. ign. must have stable voltage to operate, so if you fit a Dyna you better get a s.s. reg. and a new wiring loom while your at it.  For the record, I have never said that points are better than electronic BUT aftermarket igns. on our SOHC's do not improve performance over stock, that's all.
As for easier starting, if folks bothered to service their points their bike would start easier too !
Claims that stock ign. does not burn the fuel/air mix. as 'good' as elecrtonic are dubious as such would give an immediate improvement in HP which the makers would flaunt heavily as to why you must have their ign.........
Now if Honda had produced an electronic ign. as stock on our bikes it would have been tailored exactly to the designed advance curve etc. and be dead reliable to boot, just like the later bikes igns. are.
It's obvious Honda only went electronic when s.s. regulators became available and were installed as stock and part of an electronic reg./ ignition combination.....

[BobbyR]

Going back 2-3 years ago, Dynatek did have a problem with some of the units.  They changed the design a little and ended up with some problems on both the Dyna-S and Dyna 2000 pickups.  These appear to have been resolved as we've heard of very few problems in the past year.

When the ignitions do fail, it's often caused by the charging system of the bike.  The Dyna-S can be damaged by both high voltage and not getting enough voltage.

Many of the failures we've seen have been caused by the regulators failing.  You should check the voltage with the bike running to ensure it's not going above 14v when you bring the RPM up over 4000 rpm.  If the voltage climbs past 15v the regulator is toast.  Not only can you damage the igntions and coils,  but cook batteries, fry wiring and blow bulbs.

It's also key to get adequate voltage at the coils - if you check the voltage at the battery, you should see over 12.5v with a healthy battery.  Then check the voltage from the switched power feed into the coils going back to the battery - you need better than 11 volts to get a decent spark.  Cleaning all the electrical contacts can bring the voltage back to serviceable.

I have a new Dyna-S on my Z1 - this is a future version where they have reworked the pickups.  It's on an extended test for them before they launch the new version.

Dynatek can be hard to get in touch with.  Bear in mind they are a very small company - there are just 4 people in the office - so they can get backed up during the busy season.

Jeff, the core problem I am seeing all over the web in groups like this is failed units and a perceived indifference by Dyna. They may be a small Company, but they can get smaller if this drumbeat continues.

It is nice they fixed the problem, they should let people know they fixed the problem  and make a gesture to those who received defective goods.

Z1 on the other hand seems to have all positive accolades, which gives people confidence to buy.

If you have a contact at Dyna, you should give them the word that several thousand people will be seeing this thread over time. Ask them to do a seach on "Dyna problems" they will get an eyeful.

[Rgconner]

Now if Honda had produced an electronic ign. as stock on our bikes it would have been tailored exactly to the designed advance curve etc. and be dead reliable to boot, just like the later bikes igns. are.
It's obvious Honda only went electronic when s.s. regulators became available and were installed as stock and part of an electronic reg./ ignition combination.....

Honda went to electronic ignition when they had to compete. EI's have been available since 1955.

[BobbyR]

Nothing wrong with the stock reg., M.Rieck !.... operates as designed and will allow voltage variations which stock ign. is impervious to !.... any later  stock electronic igns. all have a solid state reg. which 'clamps' the voltage at a steady 14.5V (+/- a fraction ).... It's obvious that elect. ign. must have stable voltage to operate, so if you fit a Dyna you better get a s.s. reg. and a new wiring loom while your at it.  For the record, I have never said that points are better than electronic BUT aftermarket igns. on our SOHC's do not improve performance over stock, that's all.
As for easier starting, if folks bothered to service their points their bike would start easier too !
Claims that stock ign. does not burn the fuel/air mix. as 'good' as elecrtonic are dubious as such would give an immediate improvement in HP which the makers would flaunt heavily as to why you must have their ign.........
Now if Honda had produced an electronic ign. as stock on our bikes it would have been tailored exactly to the designed advance curve etc. and be dead reliable to boot, just like the later bikes igns. are.
It's obvious Honda only went electronic when s.s. regulators became available and were installed as stock and part of an electronic reg./ ignition combination.....

I am old enough to remember points in all our cars, including Muscle cars. We all struggled with them constantly. Every freaking week or so you were adjusting the dwell and timing. The rubbing blocks wore so the point gap always closed.  At RPMs a lot lower than these bikes operate at we had point float, so you tried Mallory dual point set ups. Points are not the Gold Standard, they are a pain in the ass. 
When the GM HEI ignitions came out there was a lot of reto fitting going on Chevelles, Camaros etc.

[MRieck]

Nothing wrong with the stock reg., M.Rieck !.... operates as designed and will allow voltage variations which stock ign. is impervious to !.... any later  stock electronic igns. all have a solid state reg. which 'clamps' the voltage at a steady 14.5V (+/- a fraction ).... It's obvious that elect. ign. must have stable voltage to operate, so if you fit a Dyna you better get a s.s. reg. and a new wiring loom while your at it.  For the record, I have never said that points are better than electronic BUT aftermarket igns. on our SOHC's do not improve performance over stock, that's all.
As for easier starting, if folks bothered to service their points their bike would start easier too !
Claims that stock ign. does not burn the fuel/air mix. as 'good' as elecrtonic are dubious as such would give an immediate improvement in HP which the makers would flaunt heavily as to why you must have their ign.........
Now if Honda had produced an electronic ign. as stock on our bikes it would have been tailored exactly to the designed advance curve etc. and be dead reliable to boot, just like the later bikes igns. are.
It's obvious Honda only went electronic when s.s. regulators became available and were installed as stock and part of an electronic reg./ ignition combination.....

Unfortunately the DOHC's ignitions weren't all that reliable as the ignition modules (we called them ignitors) would melt out and fail. Pretty common. The charging systems on those models left a lot to be desired as well as the charging rotors would fail like clockwork.

[pamcopete]

Boy, a lot of negative Karma here about electronic ignitions! I guess that the auto industry didn't know what they were doing when they switched from points to electronic ignition. Their claims of better gas mileage, more power and lower emissions are just marketing BS.

1. As far as needing a regulated voltage, the PAMCO works from 3 to 18 volts because it does not have electronic advance. The coils are the limiting factor because they have to have a certain amount of current to work. The Hall effect sensor has a built in voltage regulator. The transistor doesn't need one. Those are the only active components.
2. You can use the stock coils and stock mechanical regulator with the PAMCO. The PAMCO, or any electronic ignition system or points booster, will produce 50% higher voltage from the stock coils than the points will.
3. So called advance curve mapping is only effective from idle to about 3,000 RPM. The engine spends most of its time above 3,000 RPM. Unless you have some means to monitor the load on the engine, such as the old fashioned vacuum advances, you cannot safely "map" the advance above about 3,000 RPM. Think of the advance mechanism as a retard mechanism that allows the engine to idle smoothly and start quickly.
4. Here is a chart of some results I did in testing the XS650 PAMCO with various coils and spark plugs which showed a significant improvement in MPG.



Improved gas mileage in this case is a result of a better spark because nothing was changed to lean the mixture. In fact, a larger main jet was installed for the last two runs and I still got better gas mileage. The improved mileage was a result of the engine running more efficiently. Greater efficiency equate to more power, all things being equal.

Note: The improvements shown by these tests are attributed to improving the spark by changing coils and plugs. I do not sell coils or spark plugs.

With all of this negative Karma about electronic ignition, perhaps I should build points conversion systems for cars that the people that think electronic ignitions are all about marketing drive. If there is anyone here that is down on electronic ignition and drives a vehicle other than their motorcycle that uses points, please chime in and tell us what vehicle that may be.

[brandEn]

Hey Pete thanks for all your great info. Most of it is way above my head. How does the Pamco electronic ignition compare to something like what I have, the Dyna 2000? If I switched to a Pamco could I expect power gains, loss, or same? I know its a noob question...

[BobbyR]

Boy, a lot of negative Karma here about electronic ignitions! I guess that the auto industry didn't know what they were doing when they switched from points to electronic ignition. Their claims of better gas mileage, more power and lower emissions are just marketing BS.

1. As far as needing a regulated voltage, the PAMCO works from 3 to 18 volts because it does not have electronic advance. The coils are the limiting factor because they have to have a certain amount of current to work. The Hall effect sensor has a built in voltage regulator. The transistor doesn't need one. Those are the only active components.
2. You can use the stock coils and stock mechanical regulator with the PAMCO. The PAMCO, or any electronic ignition system or points booster, will produce 50% higher voltage from the stock coils than the points will.
3. So called advance curve mapping is only effective from idle to about 3,000 RPM. The engine spends most of its time above 3,000 RPM. Unless you have some means to monitor the load on the engine, such as the old fashioned vacuum advances, you cannot safely "map" the advance above about 3,000 RPM. Think of the advance mechanism as a retard mechanism that allows the engine to idle smoothly and start quickly.
4. Here is a chart of some results I did in testing the XS650 PAMCO with various coils and spark plugs which showed a significant improvement in MPG.



Improved gas mileage in this case is a result of a better spark because nothing was changed to lean the mixture. In fact, a larger main jet was installed for the last two runs and I still got better gas mileage. The improved mileage was a result of the engine running more efficiently. Greater efficiency equate to more power, all things being equal.

Note: The improvements shown by these tests are attributed to improving the spark by changing coils and plugs. I do not sell coils or spark plugs.

With all of this negative Karma about electronic ignition, perhaps I should build points conversion systems for cars that the people that think electronic ignitions are all about marketing drive. If there is anyone here that is down on electronic ignition and drives a vehicle other than their motorcycle that uses points, please chime in and tell us what vehicle that may be.

No not at all Pete, I don;t think the majority opinion is directed at one manufacturer. If I understand you right if for some reason my antique regulator spikes to 18VDC the Pamco will handle it, or if it runs at 15VDC the unit can handle it? There was a post about 15VDC cooking the Dyna S. 

[pamcopete]

Hey Pete thanks for all your great info. Most of it is way above my head. How does the Pamco electronic ignition compare to something like what I have, the Dyna 2000? If I switched to a Pamco could I expect power gains, loss, or same? I know its a noob question...

If your Dyna system is working, then you do not need a PAMCO. In most of my posts I say that any electronic ignition system will improve performance and gas mileage compared to points.

[pamcopete]

Boy, a lot of negative Karma here about electronic ignitions! I guess that the auto industry didn't know what they were doing when they switched from points to electronic ignition. Their claims of better gas mileage, more power and lower emissions are just marketing BS.

1. As far as needing a regulated voltage, the PAMCO works from 3 to 18 volts because it does not have electronic advance. The coils are the limiting factor because they have to have a certain amount of current to work. The Hall effect sensor has a built in voltage regulator. The transistor doesn't need one. Those are the only active components.
2. You can use the stock coils and stock mechanical regulator with the PAMCO. The PAMCO, or any electronic ignition system or points booster, will produce 50% higher voltage from the stock coils than the points will.
3. So called advance curve mapping is only effective from idle to about 3,000 RPM. The engine spends most of its time above 3,000 RPM. Unless you have some means to monitor the load on the engine, such as the old fashioned vacuum advances, you cannot safely "map" the advance above about 3,000 RPM. Think of the advance mechanism as a retard mechanism that allows the engine to idle smoothly and start quickly.
4. Here is a chart of some results I did in testing the XS650 PAMCO with various coils and spark plugs which showed a significant improvement in MPG.



Improved gas mileage in this case is a result of a better spark because nothing was changed to lean the mixture. In fact, a larger main jet was installed for the last two runs and I still got better gas mileage. The improved mileage was a result of the engine running more efficiently. Greater efficiency equate to more power, all things being equal.

Note: The improvements shown by these tests are attributed to improving the spark by changing coils and plugs. I do not sell coils or spark plugs.

With all of this negative Karma about electronic ignition, perhaps I should build points conversion systems for cars that the people that think electronic ignitions are all about marketing drive. If there is anyone here that is down on electronic ignition and drives a vehicle other than their motorcycle that uses points, please chime in and tell us what vehicle that may be.

No not at all Pete, I don;t think the majority opinion is directed at one manufacturer. If I understand you right if for some reason my antique regulator spikes to 18VDC the Pamco will handle it, or if it runs at 15VDC the unit can handle it? There was a post about 15VDC cooking the Dyna S.

If your regulator is causing the alternator to produce 17.5 volts, the PAMCO will handle that, but you will be frying other components and burning out the headlight and boiling the battery.

[Retro Rocket]

Hey Pete thanks for all your great info. Most of it is way above my head. How does the Pamco electronic ignition compare to something like what I have, the Dyna 2000? If I switched to a Pamco could I expect power gains, loss, or same? I know its a noob question...

If your Dyna system is working, then you do not need a PAMCO. In most of my posts I say that any electronic ignition system will improve performance and gas mileage compared to points.

I am curious to hear an answer to his question as well Pete, seeing's though we are running non stock engines. How will your system go on a high performance engine.? Explain in detail please....

[BobbyR]

TY for the answer Pete, I will be getting one for Xmas.

[brandEn]

Hey Pete thanks for all your great info. Most of it is way above my head. How does the Pamco electronic ignition compare to something like what I have, the Dyna 2000? If I switched to a Pamco could I expect power gains, loss, or same? I know its a noob question...

If your Dyna system is working, then you do not need a PAMCO. In most of my posts I say that any electronic ignition system will improve performance and gas mileage compared to points.

I am curious to hear an answer to his question as well Pete, seeing's though we are running non stock engines. How will your system go on a high performance engine.? Explain in detail please....

Yea, thats basically what I was asking. I am not replacing my 2000 unless it fails again. I would like to keep it in the back of my head of which vendor to send my money to. I am not real confident with my Dyna stuff just yet.

[mick7504]

TY for the answer Pete, I will be getting one for Xmas.

Mine is waiting at the Post Office for collection right now Bobby. (With Coils)
Santa came early this year. 

[scottly]

BrandEn, which of the programmable advance curves are you using with your Dyna 2000? From what I've read, there is only one curve that comes close to the stock curve, and if I recall correctly, it was a bit slow for our bikes.

[Rgconner]

Boy, a lot of negative Karma here about electronic ignitions! I guess that the auto industry didn't know what they were doing when they switched from points to electronic ignition. Their claims of better gas mileage, more power and lower emissions are just marketing BS.


With all of this negative Karma about electronic ignition, perhaps I should build points conversion systems for cars that the people that think electronic ignitions are all about marketing drive. If there is anyone here that is down on electronic ignition and drives a vehicle other than their motorcycle that uses points, please chime in and tell us what vehicle that may be.

Of course electronic ignition helps modern vehicles be more efficient, but they also have EFI and lambda sensors to help with getting that fuel/air mixture perfect as well as perfect advance. Heck my neon does not even have a distributor, just coils.

I would bet that most bikes would benefit from electronic ignition because it keeps the bike tuned properly.

I don't doubt your tests either, but after watching Mythbusters and all the ways they tried to consistently measure gas mileage... Significant rigor and testing equipment is needed to eliminate human variables.

The spark plug seems a no brainer as well. Using plugs of different "temperature" impacts fuel economy for sure.

Ps. I get lots of benefits from adding an EI, nor would I remove it. But more power and better gas mileage have not been amoung them

[scottly]

Going back 2-3 years ago, Dynatek did have a problem with some of the units.  They changed the design a little and ended up with some problems on both the Dyna-S and Dyna 2000 pickups.  These appear to have been resolved as we've heard of very few problems in the past year.

Jeff, the core problem I am seeing all over the web in groups like this is failed units and a perceived indifference by Dyna. They may be a small Company, but they can get smaller if this drumbeat continues.

It is nice they fixed the problem, they should let people know they fixed the problem  and make a gesture to those who received defective goods.

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