Topic: Dyna S Versus Cycle X High Performance Ignition

[brandEn]

Correct, the dyna 2000 eliminates the mechanical advancer.

[dave500]

i like the boyer bransden units,ive used a few,the advance is all within the box,it retains the timing marked half of the factory advance unit,less the weights/springs/cam lobe etc,,but that has nothing to do with the original post here,the boyer factory in england is miles away from any lucas electronic plant so they havent got lucas germs!

[Spanner 1]

So the 'F' mark on the Dyna plate is some unknown advance vs. stock 10 deg. advance ? Or do they explain how to set the plate for 10( or whatever ) deg. ?

In other words, how do you time the friggin' thing ??... you have no reference to the crankshaft's position with the advancer assembly removed...... ( no F , no T mark ) ?

[cben750f0]

god my head hurts after this thread...lol

keep it up=)

peace

[dave500]

a clever man would use a degree wheel,maybe even a positive stop or dial indicator,ive never seen a dyna or the instruction sheet but if thats what required to set one up i think its a bit beyond your average shade tree points knowledgeable mechanic,,ive known fully fledged certificate holding mechanics who tear down an engine an cant fathom the cam timing upon reassembly,single cam dirt bikes=yikes.

[dave500]

if you want to be clever,and do your bike a favour,determine top dead centre on you bike using a positive stop,,then look at how far wrong the factory timing mark has been all these years,most of the advancers where they lock in have a few degrees slack or slop or wrongness in them.


a few degrees?who cares?a little of the mark performance loss or gain,,this lays waste to all of the old how to set your points and electronic systems aswell,,determine your own correct tdc index,,this is a must,and all part of getting your ignition spot on.

[Spanner 1]

So many things unanswered !... stock ign. calls for 10 deg. of advance with stock ( slow-ass ) points to produce a spark  closest to where the piston has reached the top of it's travel and is now 'barely' on it's downstroke. Thats it for max. efficient fuel/air mix. burning. So, much faster electronic ign. may need a 5, 4, maybe 1 deg. advance to do the same thing. How do we know this is where a Dyna is making a spark ?

[Deltarider]

you guys must get #$%* fuel,ill often advance any engine untill it pings under load then pull it back till it stops,itll always be more advanced than any spec for that engine,,the more advance you can run with out detonation is the goal,its free horsepower,,if anyone decides to abide by any manufactures specs thats their choice.

Same here. I always run my 500 a few degrees extra advanced, buy the best gaz I can find and am rewarded with a better 'biting' engine. BTW, dealers here always seemed to have done the same. Looks like degrees and advance in the Honda book were on the conservative side and anticipated the worst #$%* fuel sold elsewhere in the world.

[dave500]

my picture wont load,,you must index your tdc mark,,itll be wrong otherwise,,someones ten degrees might be eight or seven?its no big deal once your moving and revving,,advance your timing till it just pings/detonates,and then back it off till it stops just,even if the ignition was of a little,,back in the day all these hondas had to do was eat british iron,and they did even in not quite true tune off the floor,,the biggest issue with the points in these is syncing the 1/4  2/3 pair,any electronic system will jump this hurdle,this is where the home learner has trouble,it can be close and good enough,and that will do in most cases,and the bike will run perfect per say,,not good enough for many though,electronic will sync the pair which is half the battle.

EDIT.. picture loaded.

[Eddie]

Dave is right on with advancing the timing til it pings and then back off... have done that for years with my hot rods.

[MRieck]

Do you know off the top of your head what the max advance is, and what RPM it occurs at for curve 3?

The plate is marked for up to 45 degrees of static pickup timing. Timing would be packed in at 2500 for 1, 4500 for 2, 6500 for 3, 3500 for 4 and 6500 for 5. 1-3 have a 20 degree span, 3-4 25 degree span. At 35 degrees 1-3 would have 15 degrees at idle (35-20=15). 4-5 would have 10 degrees at idle (35-25=10). The unit retards 30 degrees from final timing when starting the engine. You can dial in more than 45 degrees static total but there are no marks on the plate. As a side note...an efficient engine should not need a lot of static timing. Also...the problem with mechanical advancers lies in that components wear and spring tension varies over time and with temperature. The ability to remove those variables always works in ones favor.

[HondaMan]

you guys must get #$%* fuel,ill often advance any engine untill it pings under load then pull it back till it stops,itll always be more advanced than any spec for that engine,,the more advance you can run with out detonation is the goal,its free horsepower,,if anyone decides to abide by any manufactures specs thats their choice.

Same here. I always run my 500 a few degrees extra advanced, buy the best gaz I can find and am rewarded with a better 'biting' engine. BTW, dealers here always seemed to have done the same. Looks like degrees and advance in the Honda book were on the conservative side and anticipated the worst #$%* fuel sold elsewhere in the world.

You are correct, DT: at the time the 500/550 came into being, the world (especially the U.S., 80% of Honda's over-150cc market at the time) was suffering from a gasoline shortage. It was caused by politics, but the nevertheless, the quality of gas at the pump really suffered, if you could even get it in 1973-75, around here. Much of it was "wet" with water, from being too low in the gas station's tanks, too. This causes detonation (knock/ping) quickly. Honda introduced the first few months of the 500 with advancers that reached 44 degrees, but this was quickly shortened to 30-something, and the famous "flat spot" appeared in the middle RPM range. The 750 suffered the same tweaking in the K3 model, until the 1976 "F" model appeared.

Performance tuners were quick to expand the reach of the advancer weights, and stiffen up the springs, to improve the performance and remove the 'fall flat' feeling it generates in midrange. This was one of my famous "tricks" in the day, and appears in my book, still.

The 500/550/750 engines can accommodate very long spark advance if you are careful to sneak up on the numbers and test as you go, until it is too much, then back off a little. Almost every engine acts differently for this maximum, so Honda's engineers just picked an always-safe value to keep their warranty costs down.

Over the years, owners who have been pulling back-and-forth on the spark advancer nut to time their points have worn the hole in the crankshaft where the locating pin on the advancer once held the thing in time. Today, it is a rare engine I see that does not have an angled crankshaft hole under the advancer plate, letting it rotate a couple of degrees either way. The pin is hard steel: the crank is soft iron at that spot.

[Ricky_Racer]

Excellent discussion! This looks like an appropriate time for a shameless posting to announce that we're now importing the Accent electronic ignition from Europe. As many of our European rider brothers will attest, this is the defacto standard ignition for many European SOHC riders.

From our eBay list at http://www.ebay.com/itm/280779267840?item=280779267840&viewitem=&vxp=mtr :

Accent ELZ2 coil electronic ignition system for Honda SOHC Fours: CB350 / CB400 / CB500 / CB 550 / CB 750.

The Accent is a complete self-contained electronic ignition system built with the latest state-of-the-art engineering. Tested and proven by thousands of CB SOHC riders. The Accent is perfectly developed and uses its own rotor with the original spark advancer, so the factory advance curve is maintained. Install the Accent ignition system on your Honda and do not think about it anymore. Set it and forget it! It works perfectly with the stock coils! This ignition as supplied is set for standard 5 ohm coils. If you need this system for use with lower Ohm coils, e.g. the Bol d’Or or Dynatec 3 Ohm types, we have another rotor type available as an option. This product is made in Germany, and carries a two-year warranty.

Advantages of the Accent ignition system:
No stroboscope light is needed for timing; the built-in LED tells you when your adjustment is perfect.
Better cold start behavior.
More power at high and low revs and a better throttle response.
No more worries with the old breakers.
No wear like standard points.
No readjusting is necessary.
Installs within minutes. All cables have the right color and the right plugs.
If your engine is not running with the key switch on, electrical supply to your coils is stopped! Your coils no longer overheat.
Every single part is replaceable in case of a failure.
Carries a two year warranty! Comes with installation guide.

PM me for special pricing for SOHC members. Thanks!  RR

[Deltarider]

 

with the latest state-of-the-art engineering.

Can you tell us what that latest 'state-of-the-art engineering' is? That set has been around for decades under a different name. If I remember well it was a British design. What do you mean by 'latest'? Can you give us data about the extra power? (sigh, here we go again)

Sincerely yours,
A European

[Ricky_Racer]

Well, Delta, I suppose I should have been ready for this. Okay... advertising is advertising. And I'm not, nor do I have any interest in becoming, an electrical engineer.

Certainly compared with the usual poorly maintained set of points, the Accent ignition will produce a better spark and improved power, as will a Dyna or Pamco. That being said, if something is patently erroneous, I'll quickly (and happily) revise it and never say it again.

Now, since this product has been "around for decades" - does that also not mean well-tested? - in Europe, and it's new to me (and the US), how about telling us about the ignition's reputation, in your personal experience? My understanding is that it is a well-respected ignition system with a huge installed base in Europe.  Thanks. RR

[Deltarider]

I made my own. Transistor ignition that is. Nothing special. A shameless Velleman imitation. No power increase. New plugs, yes they give a better drivability. Most people that mount an electronic ignition, renew their plugs at the same time and when they experience better drivability the EI gets the credit. Maybe they renew the plugs to avoid dissapointment.

[BobbyR]

Who would have thought Ignition would have joined OIL and GUNS. Popcorn is on me!

[pamcopete]

RR,

Where do we send the Accent Electronic Ignition  for warranty repair / replacement?

[Ricky_Racer]

RR,

Where do we send the Accent Electronic Ignition  for warranty repair / replacement?

Directly to me at Classic Cycle City. We've built our reputation on being highly responsive and "treating others as we'd like to be treated." I'm sure you do the same.  Thanks. RR

[Ricky_Racer]

I made my own. Transistor ignition that is. Nothing special. A shameless Velleman imitation. No power increase. New plugs, yes they give a better drivability. Most people that mount an electronic ignition, renew their plugs at the same time and when they experience better drivability the EI gets the credit. Maybe they renew the plugs to avoid dissapointment.

You have an impressive skill set; I wish I had that knowledge and training. So, question: how would you create an ignition that's not RPM dependent and would retard itself under conditions of positive boost from a turbo or blower? That's one option I'd like to know more about. Any theories? RR

[dave500]

that would need a map sensor,throttle position and knock sensor,lets toy with a gm ecu and marry it up to a sohc?on those accents ricky is the printed side sealed against corrosion?,ive seen them before and ive never liked the look of the non solid state build,i guess it works ok they have been around for a while and you can tweak the advance curve if you want.

[brokenspoke]

It would be nice to see an open source microcontroller ignition system based on an arduino. Then I suppose you configure it for whatever.  Include throttle position, knock sensor, map timing to RPMs, program it for different needs, and all from a home computer. I've seen a few try, nothing complete that I've seen. Open source doesn't make for good sales though...

edit: after a quick search, there do appear to be some effective open source ignition systems, my mistake. Not sure how one would pair it to a cb yet. Fun reading, but it doesn't put my bike back together.

[dave500]

the early gm ones have been hacked and get used even on flathead fords with injection.

[Retro Rocket]

RR,

Where do we send the Accent Electronic Ignition  for warranty repair / replacement?

Directly to me at Classic Cycle City. We've built our reputation on being highly responsive and "treating others as we'd like to be treated." I'm sure you do the same.  Thanks. RR

+1 I have Spoken to RR on numerous occasions and always get a well thought out responsive reply and although i haven't bought from CCC in the States, i have bought from their Euro brothers and was delighted with their products and brilliant service, Thomas {nippon} worried about my order repeatedly until it turned up on my door, everything was perfect, communication was excellent and i will definitely be purchasing more...Keep up the good work guys....

[Ricky_Racer]

Thanks, Mick.  IMHO, it's always easiest to "do the right thing." And I sleep better at night!     RR