Author Topic: K&N vs. stock air filter  (Read 26016 times)

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Offline Retro Rocket

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Re: K&N vs. stock air filter
« Reply #25 on: November 25, 2011, 10:16:18 PM »
Why are you so negative Spanner.? Better filter = more airflow, how that will limit performance is beyond me and a lot of us here. About time you came out of the dark ages dude. Newer technology is a +, not a problem, its all about finding a balance, you have to remember that the technology you hold on to so dearly is old, you are more than welcome to your opinion but some of the claims you make are just silly. The pods comparison is so far off the mark its is irrelevant, and i am sure you know that.... 60's Honda engineers have nothing on todays, technology has evolved a hell of a lot since then. Going by your theories, all racers are idiots.... ::) Funny thing is that i have modified plenty of old Honda's and not one performed worse than the original bike....
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Offline Deltarider

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Re: K&N vs. stock air filter
« Reply #26 on: November 25, 2011, 11:42:36 PM »
Quote
Why are you so negative Spanner.? Better filter = more airflow, how that will limit performance is beyond me and a lot of us here. About time you came out of the dark ages dude. Newer technology is a +, not a problem, its all about finding a balance, you have to remember that the technology you hold on to so dearly is old, you are more than welcome to your opinion but some of the claims you make are just silly. The pods comparison is so far off the mark its is irrelevant, and i am sure you know that.... 60's Honda engineers have nothing on todays, technology has evolved a hell of a lot since then. Going by your theories, all racers are idiots....  Funny thing is that i have modified plenty of old Honda's and not one performed worse than the original bike....
Interesting. And now your arguments, please. I mean real arguments and not this 'technology has evolved a hell of a lot since then' mantra. I challenge anyone to proove there's anything wrong with the airflow of a stock paper filter element, even when it reaches its interval for replacement. It's funny nobody ever performed the simple test I described in this forum years ago.
When I'm not on a long trip far away from home, I tend to ride with the same filter until I feel the filter becomes less effective. To be correct, I've only experienced this once. All my old filters I keep in the basement for reserve.
« Last Edit: November 26, 2011, 12:48:49 AM by Deltarider »
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Offline Retro Rocket

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Re: K&N vs. stock air filter
« Reply #27 on: November 26, 2011, 12:46:27 AM »
Delta, your posts are just argumentative and not helpful at all. I gather you know something about induction.? Have you ever made any performance orientated mods to anything.? Prove it does nothing instead of creating a problem, it would be far more productive....
You must be stuck in the dark ages if you think technology has nothing to do with advances in induction, going by your negative approach, nothing has changed, which in itself is laughable.... I have no arguments because everyone i know simply knows that a freer flowing airbox or induction system will, with some other small changes like jets,  gain you some HP, add a better pipe and those numbers go up again.... What exactly is it you don't get....? I NEVER said that there was anything wrong with the stock filter, just that there are better ones available that flow more air..  No one needs to test anything to prove this to you, go do some reading and find out for yourself.  Some of you people just amaze me.... :o  There are a lot of things you say that common sense would suggest otherwise, like a dirty filter not flowing as much air as a new one.....

Quote
It's funny nobody ever performed the simple test I described in this forum years ago.

I wonder why... ::)
« Last Edit: November 26, 2011, 12:53:45 AM by Retro Rocket »
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Offline Deltarider

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Re: K&N vs. stock air filter
« Reply #28 on: November 26, 2011, 12:57:28 AM »
But I don't want to have a 'better' pipe. I love my 4 OEM pipes and I always will have them. Now, given that, what is wrong with the airflow of a standard airfilter. Please, lift me from the dark ages (but not with secondhand opinions).
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Offline Retro Rocket

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Re: K&N vs. stock air filter
« Reply #29 on: November 26, 2011, 01:06:22 AM »
But I don't want to have a 'better' pipe. I love my 4 OEM pipes and I always will have them. Now, given that, what is wrong with the airflow of a standard airfilter. Please, lift me from the dark ages (but not with secondhand opinions).

I am hoping that there is a break down in communication here because i never said to change the pipe, i simply said, a better pipe will improve performance {common sense}, so will a freer flowing filter{more common sense}. Man, i may have to type slower for you.... I never said that there was anything wrong with the stock filter or its flow but there are better flowing filters out there, and unless i am mistaken, no one else said that either. If you didn't understand what is being said here then maybe you should just but out....
One more thing, the stock induction system wasn't designed for maximum performance, most all vehicles {for the street} are a compromise for lots of reasons,   there is always something you can do to make any vehicle go better.
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Offline Deltarider

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Re: K&N vs. stock air filter
« Reply #30 on: November 26, 2011, 01:15:38 AM »
Quote
are a compromise for lots of reasons
Right... and very good reasons they are!
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Offline dave500

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Re: K&N vs. stock air filter
« Reply #31 on: November 26, 2011, 01:23:45 AM »
err?umm?getting back to the original post,any proper filter in the proper airbox is worth ten pod set ups!people will tinker and tinker and always come back to the same thing,,the stock set up is great, aftermarket units in the stock airbox are mostly the same as stock,most of these combos with altered exhaust and induction and ignitions are mostly a hum jumble of mismatched parts in my opinion,if you improve induction,or flow,it must be compensated for,,if you restrict it,,it must be compensated for,this is an each way bet,,go a little richer or leaner,,the proof is on the track though,the smaller the engine and induction,the more it responds to subtle changes,,the higher you rev this engine the less its responsive to these changes,,the difference between a truley blocked filter and a clean one are miles apart,,the difference between a standard filter and a more free flowing one would only be worked out once any changes were all tuned in,,if your filter flows more easy,youll need to enrich,check your ignition first though!free power will be had through a well sorted igniton.
« Last Edit: November 26, 2011, 01:28:32 AM by dave500 »

Offline Retro Rocket

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Re: K&N vs. stock air filter
« Reply #32 on: November 26, 2011, 01:58:16 AM »
Quote
are a compromise for lots of reasons
Right... and very good reasons they are!

Enlighten us.... ::)

Quote
,most of these combos with altered exhaust and induction and ignitions are mostly a hum jumble of mismatched parts in my opinion

Agreed, and lots of people do this without knowing what they are doing, on the other hand,  in the right hands, reasonable gains are to be had, that goes without saying.   ;)
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Offline simon#42

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Re: K&N vs. stock air filter
« Reply #33 on: November 26, 2011, 02:12:14 AM »
well their not great reasons , the standard system is designed more to pass noise regulations than flow air . people who hate pods are usually people who dont know how to re jet carbs properly .

Offline Retro Rocket

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Re: K&N vs. stock air filter
« Reply #34 on: November 26, 2011, 02:18:24 AM »
Depends on the pods Simon, there is some cheap crap out there.... ;)
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Offline dave500

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Re: K&N vs. stock air filter
« Reply #35 on: November 26, 2011, 03:46:24 AM »
i doubt my 500 with stock air box would pass any newer induction noise test!if you have truly fiddled with these engines running pods,you must be some kind of god?i call foul,,if you can get these to run and idle properly,and be drivable as per factory and somewhat better,,ill eat my helmet,with my head in it,sure you will get them to run in race mode but have you ever had one have a smooth idle and the transition into power?as in a street drivable bike?dont lie now!i doubt you have had much to do with these engines simon,your a bit late getting on the pod theory stuff.
« Last Edit: November 26, 2011, 03:51:18 AM by dave500 »

Offline Retro Rocket

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Re: K&N vs. stock air filter
« Reply #36 on: November 26, 2011, 04:11:51 AM »
Quote
,ill eat my helmet,with my head in it,

I would pay to see that.... ;D ;D ;)
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Offline Deltarider

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Re: K&N vs. stock air filter
« Reply #37 on: November 26, 2011, 04:33:47 AM »
Quote
Enlighten us....
Well, read what Dave wrote above. That more or less sums it up. I don't like noisy bikes.
Am I a stock purist then? Not at all. But some things I just love too much, like the stock trumpet 4-4 exhausts, on a 500 the most elegant of all the Fours IMO.
Parts that are not stock on mine, since I was convinced it could be better:
  tapered bearings for steering
  a true horn and not the joke Honda put on,
  a self made transistor ignition to save on points
  KONI rear shocks
and that's about it.
I know I'm fortunated having acquired my 500 100% original in 1979. On the other hand I advise anyone to return to stock as much as possible to give yourself at least a chance to discover how well these bikes rode. In my view that's an excellent starting point. I'm amazed how many go through all the trouble of buying extra parts and so end up with a bike that has little to do with the original anymore. As if the money is burning in their pockets. Why not buy another type of bike and enjoy all the advantages of 'technology that has evolved a hell of a lot since then'.
I'm amazed how many use other than OEM parts.
Look at these foam filters. Why bother? Of all the things your bike consumes, air is the most by far. Why not give it the best filterprotection there is? The cost isn't that much. Isn't it great that genuine Honda parts for these bikes are still available? How much longer will this be when more and more prefer counterfeits to save a buck? Is $ 20,- to much for a known good airfilter that gives you peace of mind? I mean, I'm open for improvements but I don't see them. The same with electronic ignitions. They're fine if you don't want to mess with points (I don't mind that at all, btw), but I have yet to see convincing data sheet that show increased power. What's the use of higher voltage at your spark electrodes, if it doesn't bring anything but eroding your sparkplug electrodes faster? The module I made, brought marginal improvement, mar-gi-nal but my plug electrodes erode faster.
 
   
« Last Edit: November 26, 2011, 04:39:59 AM by Deltarider »
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Offline Spanner 1

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Re: K&N vs. stock air filter
« Reply #38 on: November 26, 2011, 07:30:54 AM »
Further to Delta's post.... remember that ign. mods that draw more power ( the ignitors and say, 3 ohm coils ) and claim 'some' degree of performance improvement all neglect to tell you that the increased load on the battery will deplete it faster resulting in the alternator working harder to keep-up. The alternator uses engine power (HP ) to make charging voltage. If the field coil is 'on', the resultant magnetic Field has to be 'cut' by the rotor which uses up engine power to do so. Is it a fraction of a HP?, or more ?. I don't know, but you don't get nothin' for nothin'......

AND rather than 'slagging' me off on this Forum a certain member might better spend his time putting together one of his 'imaginary' bikes and post a pic. in 'Let's see your bike out on the road ' thread... in 2 years , I haven't seen one  ::) ::)  'Oh, it's all in boxes '  ::) ::)
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Offline ofreen

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Re: K&N vs. stock air filter
« Reply #39 on: November 26, 2011, 09:03:57 AM »
So I'm getting the stock airbox put back on and I'm wondering what the difference was between the stock foam element vs. K&N (performance, mileage, etc.)  Is it worth the $50 vs. $10?

Here's post I made a few years ago, among others I've made on the topic -

http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php?topic=30589.msg314926#msg314926

I don't have much to add except now the bike has over 134,000 miles on it, still with no significant oil use between changes (every 3000 miles).  I've talked about it before, but one thing I didn't mention in the post above is volcanic ash.  In 1990, I lived near Soldotna, AK.  The  Redoubt volcano was active that winter and ashed us several times.  All that ash was still there when the snow melted in the spring.  It has the consistency of talcum powder and anybody that has been around that stuff knows there is nothing more abrasive.  We lived at the end  of a mile long gravel road and for awhile that ash was just as bad as it was after an eruption.  It took months for the rain to wash that stuff into the ground, but even 3 years later when we moved away ash was still evident when the road was dusty.  I was concerned about whether the K&N filter was keeping the ash out of the engine so I checked a couple of times.  There was never any sign of ash downstream from the filter.  The bike had 30,000 miles on it around that time.  Based on that experience and on other bikes, I've accepted K&N's claims for their air filters.  I've had K&N air filters in at least 10 different bikes (stock airboxes) and have never needed to change jetting.  Driveability was unchanged.

If anyone gets bored with this thread, I see a new Dyna beads thread has started up. ;)
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Offline mrbreeze

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Re: K&N vs. stock air filter
« Reply #40 on: November 26, 2011, 09:27:30 AM »
Quote
,ill eat my helmet,with my head in it,

I would pay to see that.... ;D ;D ;)
Me too!!! ;D.........I'd bet alot of us would!!!!
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Offline mrbreeze

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Re: K&N vs. stock air filter
« Reply #41 on: November 26, 2011, 09:28:44 AM »
well their not great reasons , the standard system is designed more to pass noise regulations than flow air . people who hate pods are usually people who dont know how to re jet carbs properly .
Couldn't have said it better myself Simon!!!!
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Offline mrbreeze

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Re: K&N vs. stock air filter
« Reply #42 on: November 26, 2011, 09:50:59 AM »
I had to go back and reread the last 2 pages of this and I can say some of it is spot on and some is total BS!!! I like my bike alot more since I modded my intake,exhaust, and ignition. Granted ....I had to experiment and when I had questions (back around 05'-06' when I first joined here)....I really didn't get alot of detailed info. More like scientific mombo jumbo that most people don't have a grasp on. I know how an engine works. I know a bit about hopping one up also. I had to rebuild my carbs and install,remove,install, etc. until I got it right on my own. I'm not gonna name names but some of you are really just full of sh!t when you expain why stock is better. Like already said.........stock is a compromise to things like noise, weather, EPA, etc., etc. I will fully admit that running pods will kick yer a$$ if you run em' in the rain. Believe it or not...........I get no joy riding in the rain so I don't mind running pods over having that butt ugly air box on there. I haven't experienced any lose of power (more gain actually). I don't get noise tickets.....my alternator and battery are just fine thank you!!! I don't go through spark plugs or gasoline like candy...........I don't have any hair loss, problems getting an erection, bad breath.............none of that stuff. Believe me......if my bike didn't perform as good as it did stock...........I would have no problem agreeing with some of you and returning it to stock. I'm not even against having my bike the way it is......and a stocker....and a few other variations. No law says you can only have one or two bikes. ;)
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Offline crazypj

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Re: K&N vs. stock air filter
« Reply #43 on: November 26, 2011, 11:19:18 AM »
LOL,  ;D
 I've told everyone my views, CB550 with 591cc conversion, cam, ported, exhaust, K&N filters,120+mph 41mpg.
 Totally stock 550, 112mph, 26mpg
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Offline mrbreeze

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Re: K&N vs. stock air filter
« Reply #44 on: November 26, 2011, 11:22:23 AM »
LOL,  ;D
 I've told everyone my views, CB550 with 591cc conversion, cam, ported, exhaust, K&N filters,120+mph 41mpg.
 Totally stock 550, 112mph, 26mpg
Dialed in Man!!!
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Offline Retro Rocket

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Re: K&N vs. stock air filter
« Reply #45 on: November 26, 2011, 02:58:27 PM »
Further to Delta's post.... remember that ign. mods that draw more power ( the ignitors and say, 3 ohm coils ) and claim 'some' degree of performance improvement all neglect to tell you that the increased load on the battery will deplete it faster resulting in the alternator working harder to keep-up. The alternator uses engine power (HP ) to make charging voltage. If the field coil is 'on', the resultant magnetic Field has to be 'cut' by the rotor which uses up engine power to do so. Is it a fraction of a HP?, or more ?. I don't know, but you don't get nothin' for nothin'......

AND rather than 'slagging' me off on this Forum a certain member might better spend his time putting together one of his 'imaginary' bikes and post a pic. in 'Let's see your bike out on the road ' thread... in 2 years , I haven't seen one  ::) ::)  'Oh, it's all in boxes '  ::) ::)

Maybe you should put your head in a box too. Go to the HIPO forum , there are a pile of threads from Ape, Mike Rieck and others that have pics of the parts i have bought for my bikes. No to mention the Aussie members that know what i have. Ask Dave 500 mate. he's dying to see the finished bikes after seeing most of the bits i have. I have over 10 grands worth of parts and am waiting on more still, i have some suspension parts at Mr Breeze'a place, i have got 2 other guys making me custom triple clamps and front hubs, both in the States, and some parts being developed in Europe, you'll surely eat you pathetic words when its completed.... Anyway i don't need to prove a #$%*ing thing to you Spanner, if you knew anything about our market you would know that parts here are prohibitively expensive and there is basically no aftermarket parts made here like there is in Europe the US and the UK, so all my stuff has to be shipped from over seas...Go slag off Ron {MC rider} and Jerry Griffin then , both have been doing there bikes for as long or even longer than mine....... I can't believe how petty some of the senior members can be on this site, especially when they are wrong....."you haven't got a bike, nah nah na nah nah" FFS  ::)
« Last Edit: November 26, 2011, 04:36:20 PM by Retro Rocket »
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Offline grcamna2

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Re: K&N vs. stock air filter
« Reply #46 on: November 26, 2011, 03:25:07 PM »
So I'm getting the stock airbox put back on and I'm wondering what the difference was between the stock foam element vs. K&N (performance, mileage, etc.)  Is it worth the $50 vs. $10?

Here's post I made a few years ago, among others I've made on the topic -

http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php?topic=30589.msg314926#msg314926

I don't have much to add except now the bike has over 134,000 miles on it, still with no significant oil use between changes (every 3000 miles).  I've talked about it before, but one thing I didn't mention in the post above is volcanic ash.  In 1990, I lived near Soldotna, AK.  The  Redoubt volcano was active that winter and ashed us several times.  All that ash was still there when the snow melted in the spring.  It has the consistency of talcum powder and anybody that has been around that stuff knows there is nothing more abrasive.  We lived at the end  of a mile long gravel road and for awhile that ash was just as bad as it was after an eruption.  It took months for the rain to wash that stuff into the ground, but even 3 years later when we moved away ash was still evident when the road was dusty.  I was concerned about whether the K&N filter was keeping the ash out of the engine so I checked a couple of times.  There was never any sign of ash downstream from the filter.  The bike had 30,000 miles on it around that time.  Based on that experience and on other bikes, I've accepted K&N's claims for their air filters.  I've had K&N air filters in at least 10 different bikes (stock airboxes) and have never needed to change jetting.  Driveability was unchanged.

If anyone gets bored with this thread, I see a new Dyna beads thread has started up. ;)
Any former Motorcycle dealer technicians know ?
Does anyone have lots of technical experience/information on the K&N filters? I have always enjoyed K&N filters in my stock airbox & I hope other members will give one a try & see if it makes a significant difference. I ask about the technical info on the K&N because I wonder if the gauze in the filter stays closed more at small air flow such as at 0-1/8 throttle opening...and then tends to gradually open up progressively at different stages in the amount of air flow incoming ? and I was curious if this may change depending on the amount of oil that is applied to the filter gauze. Does anyone know? or has anyone ever researched the technical flow characteristics possibly from one of the K&N Technical bulletins ? I have used All the different types of filters in different cycles & I think the stock paper filters are especially nice for  that 0-1/8 throttle openings & good midrange,but the K&N's are nice for high flow...I just would like to do some research, is all.
                                                         let me know,   Thanks !
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Offline scottly

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Re: K&N vs. stock air filter
« Reply #47 on: November 26, 2011, 06:15:56 PM »
Regarding oiled foam filters: I have been using them on my 836 for over 30 years now, clamped over velocity stacks. Yes, they do tend to disintegrate after 15 years or so, but they do seem to filter well.
My HONDA CR480R, which was designed to be operated in hostile environments, came fitted with a foam filter from the factory.
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Offline raymond10078

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Re: K&N vs. stock air filter
« Reply #48 on: November 26, 2011, 06:33:44 PM »
A source - someone did some testing . . . .

http://www.bobistheoilguy.com/airfilter/airtest3.htm
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Past bikes - Honda: SL350, CX650C, CB900C, CB1000C, CM450A; Kawasaki: several 1972 750 H2's; Suzuki: TC90J.

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Offline grcamna2

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Re: K&N vs. stock air filter
« Reply #49 on: November 26, 2011, 07:38:23 PM »
kandrtech, hey...don't shoot ! I give up ! hehe. I like how that guy carefully did those tests & he didn't seem to have a bias one way or the other.

                                          Thanks for finding that link; it's interesting.
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Do your BEST...nobody can take that away from you.