Author Topic: Dyna beads evaluation  (Read 20280 times)

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Offline FunJimmy

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Re: Dyna beads evaluation
« Reply #25 on: November 28, 2011, 08:18:35 PM »
It’s a case of …..if it ain’t broke, why fix it? Tire manufactures have no reason to endorse or condone a product that does nothing to improve on the current status quo especially when possibly affecting their product in the process. If there was a long term impact on the stability of the tire liner or some other physical effect and said manufacturer approved the use of these third party dynamic balancers, they, the manufacturer of the tire would be held liable. Ain’t gonna happen fellas. 
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Offline CoachDoc

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Re: Dyna beads evaluation
« Reply #26 on: November 28, 2011, 08:23:20 PM »
Wow - this thread has really opened a can of.....beads!

Coach - did you have an issue that the beads corrected or you just installed them with a new tire?

Stev-O, I was thinking that maybe it was time for an overhaul of my steering head because the bike just lacked a solid feel when I got over 75 mph or so; the wheels had been conventionally balanced and the tires were quite new. Based upon my positive experience with the beads on my GL1500, I thought I'd give them a shot on the 550. Off came the wheel weights and in went the beads. MUCH more stable now at speed- it felt better between 90-100 than it did previously at 70-80 mph. I think the improvements are even more tangible on heavyweight bikes, but I'm very pleased with the outcome on my 550.

Offline brandEn

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Re: Dyna beads evaluation
« Reply #27 on: November 28, 2011, 08:25:43 PM »
I run Dyna beads in my CB750, no complaints. I also know guys that run them in their sportbikes, no complaints from them either.

Offline City Boy

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Re: Dyna beads evaluation
« Reply #28 on: November 28, 2011, 08:40:18 PM »
Thanks to all who have reported actual experience with this product.My confidence is renewed.  Rock On
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Markcb750

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Re: Dyna beads evaluation
« Reply #29 on: November 29, 2011, 04:31:09 AM »
Wheel vibration is a function of the unequal radial forces due to system inaccuracies. IOW Either the tire or wheel is out of round or there is an unequal distribution of mass around the wheel.  Both situations cause the center of rotation and the center of mass to be displaced from each other.

Depending on the magnitude of the mechanical or mass distribution imperfection in a tire/wheel system the effect may be felt by a rider when the rotational speed resonates with the axle and wheel or the suspension of the axle and wheel (shocks, forks). 

Both sources of imbalance can be detected and countered by finding the "heavy" point then balancing by removing weight from that point or counter-balancing by adding weight 180 degrees from that point. 

There is no force available to make beads inside a tire move to a specific point 180 degrees from the source of imbalance.  In fact the same force  that keeps water in a pail swung around your head would force the beads to the point of maximum displacement; making the problem worse. Whether the point of displacement was static (out of round) or dynamic (unequal mass distribution). 

It is only the fact that the beads possess insignificant mass relative to the mass of the tire and wheel and that they spread them selves out over the inside inside of the tire that they (dyna beads) generally do not cause a significant worsening of the vibration at speed. 

This coupled with incompetent people balancing the tire with weights and the fact that modern tires are significantly better balanced then they were even a decade ago  and will often run well without balancing weights reinforces the placebo effect which perpetuates this mythology. 

Just the thoughts of an old engineer who balanced systems up to 20,000 rpm... Our tires rotate about 1120@80mph...

Offline Rigid

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Re: Dyna beads evaluation
« Reply #30 on: November 29, 2011, 06:57:14 AM »
Wheel vibration is a function of the unequal radial forces due to system inaccuracies. IOW Either the tire or wheel is out of round or there is an unequal distribution of mass around the wheel.  Both situations cause the center of rotation and the center of mass to be displaced from each other.

Depending on the magnitude of the mechanical or mass distribution imperfection in a tire/wheel system the effect may be felt by a rider when the rotational speed resonates with the axle and wheel or the suspension of the axle and wheel (shocks, forks). 

Both sources of imbalance can be detected and countered by finding the "heavy" point then balancing by removing weight from that point or counter-balancing by adding weight 180 degrees from that point. 

There is no force available to make beads inside a tire move to a specific point 180 degrees from the source of imbalance.  In fact the same force  that keeps water in a pail swung around your head would force the beads to the point of maximum displacement; making the problem worse. Whether the point of displacement was static (out of round) or dynamic (unequal mass distribution). 

It is only the fact that the beads possess insignificant mass relative to the mass of the tire and wheel and that they spread them selves out over the inside inside of the tire that they (dyna beads) generally do not cause a significant worsening of the vibration at speed. 

This coupled with incompetent people balancing the tire with weights and the fact that modern tires are significantly better balanced then they were even a decade ago  and will often run well without balancing weights reinforces the placebo effect which perpetuates this mythology. 

Just the thoughts of an old engineer who balanced systems up to 20,000 rpm... Our tires rotate about 1120@80mph...

I think he said it works great.  Give it a try.  :D
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Offline Spanner 1

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Re: Dyna beads evaluation
« Reply #31 on: November 29, 2011, 07:28:09 AM »
You could do this !.......... get a box of those little fishing lead weight balls,  weigh each one  ::) to be sure they are all the exact same weight, the ones with the split that wrap onto the fishing line and wrap one around each wheel spoke right at the rim end of the spoke. Be sure to do each spoke. Ride bike and enjoy. Any change in wheel performance, wobble, shake vibration would be all imaginary. Some folks on this Forum like doing things so they can imagine some 'gain', heck, some folks here love their imaginary bikes  and will rant about their fabulous  improvements from stock. ;) :) It's all good !
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If your sure it's an ignition problem; it's carbs....

Markcb750

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Re: Dyna beads evaluation
« Reply #32 on: November 29, 2011, 08:20:01 AM »
People can think anything they want, that is the beauty of the world. 

Some will think they can fly, others will know they can if they first understand how a glider works then painstakingly test and develop a system for understanding why something might fly...

Offline Roach Carver

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Re: Dyna beads evaluation
« Reply #33 on: November 29, 2011, 09:44:40 AM »
I put them in my gas tank.






I feel dumb now.

Offline Duke McDukiedook

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Re: Dyna beads evaluation
« Reply #34 on: November 29, 2011, 10:31:42 AM »
Wheel vibration is a function of the unequal radial forces due to system inaccuracies. IOW Either the tire or wheel is out of round or there is an unequal distribution of mass around the wheel.  Both situations cause the center of rotation and the center of mass to be displaced from each other.

Depending on the magnitude of the mechanical or mass distribution imperfection in a tire/wheel system the effect may be felt by a rider when the rotational speed resonates with the axle and wheel or the suspension of the axle and wheel (shocks, forks). 

Both sources of imbalance can be detected and countered by finding the "heavy" point then balancing by removing weight from that point or counter-balancing by adding weight 180 degrees from that point. 

There is no force available to make beads inside a tire move to a specific point 180 degrees from the source of imbalance.  In fact the same force  that keeps water in a pail swung around your head would force the beads to the point of maximum displacement; making the problem worse. Whether the point of displacement was static (out of round) or dynamic (unequal mass distribution). 

It is only the fact that the beads possess insignificant mass relative to the mass of the tire and wheel and that they spread them selves out over the inside inside of the tire that they (dyna beads) generally do not cause a significant worsening of the vibration at speed. 

This coupled with incompetent people balancing the tire with weights and the fact that modern tires are significantly better balanced then they were even a decade ago  and will often run well without balancing weights reinforces the placebo effect which perpetuates this mythology. 

Just the thoughts of an old engineer who balanced systems up to 20,000 rpm... Our tires rotate about 1120@80mph...

I think he said it works great.  Give it a try.  :D

Ha Ha!! Funny bunny.  ;D

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Offline Rigid

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Re: Dyna beads evaluation
« Reply #35 on: November 29, 2011, 11:02:36 AM »
I put them in my gas tank.






I feel dumb now.

Does it corner better?  I think actual placebos may work better.  I worry they would dissolve amd block my petcock.
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Offline Rgconner

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Re: Dyna beads evaluation
« Reply #36 on: November 29, 2011, 11:41:02 AM »

There is no force available to make beads inside a tire move to a specific point 180 degrees from the source of imbalance.  In fact the same force  that keeps water in a pail swung around your head would force the beads to the point of maximum displacement; making the problem worse. Whether the point of displacement was static (out of round) or dynamic (unequal mass distribution). 

It is only the fact that the beads possess insignificant mass relative to the mass of the tire and wheel and that they spread them selves out over the inside inside of the tire that they (dyna beads) generally do not cause a significant worsening of the vibration at speed. 

This coupled with incompetent people balancing the tire with weights and the fact that modern tires are significantly better balanced then they were even a decade ago  and will often run well without balancing weights reinforces the placebo effect which perpetuates this mythology. 

Just the thoughts of an old engineer who balanced systems up to 20,000 rpm... Our tires rotate about 1120@80mph...

Like all myths, there is a kernel of truth to the lie.

Here is how it works, via a thought experiment:

The system must be free floating. A fixed system like a ship gyro or a jet engine will not work, it will rip itself apart before balance is achieved.

Think of a string, with a 1 oz weight on one end and a 1.25 oz on the other.

Attached to the string, where it can be moved about, but is fixed for any test, is an axle with enough length and flexiblity to act freely in 2 dimensions.

For this test, it is centered.

Apply a rotation to the axle. As it speeds up it will oscillate from our frame of reference. The string will spin around it's COG, not the axle.

Now, extend that to a tire, where the tire is free to move up and down the front fork. For this test the springs and oil have been removed and replaced with a magical friction free fluid. The wheel is free to move up and down.

The tire is somewhat out of round for this test.

Spin it up, and the wheel will oscillate around the COG, moving the axle/wheel with it. 

Now add the beads to move freely around the tire.

The oscillating wheel is not a circle anymore, it is in effect a parabola, and the heavy side is the top and the light side is the bottom. Beads will flow towards the bottom and the oscillations will dampen until a dynamic balance is achieved.

QED

Here is the rub: the road is not a thought experiment. For one thing, you have the damping of the front shocks limiting the movement of the wheel.

The beads would have to constantly reconfigure and significant input, like hitting a pothole, will require the beads to reconfigure to achieve dynamic balance. Speed changes would do the same thing as acceleration or deceleration is in effect a change in the gravity vector.

During the reconfiguration, the wheel is by definition out of balance and oscillating

Given enough input, the beads may never reach a dynamic balance. One such scenario would be turning, hitting rough surface in the turn.
During that time the wheel would very likely be out of balance and be providing incorrect feedback to the rider.

Incorrect feedback increases the chances the rider may take the wrong corrective action, or fail to take corrective action. In other words, an "accident" that is anything but an accident.

Truck companies use another product called "Centramatic" that is like Dyna Beads but more sophisticated. It includes a track filled with oil, which would prevent "reconfiguration" from happening on every little input.
Here is a link to a "demo" showing how it works:

How Centramatic Balancers Work

With 18 wheels, that seems reasonable if one set gets out of balance it is no big deal. If one of my two tires gets out of balance... not so good.

So I will stick with properly balancing the tire using fixed weights.
1975 CB550K aka "Grease Monkey"

Markcb750

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Re: Dyna beads evaluation
« Reply #37 on: November 29, 2011, 11:56:00 AM »
I put them in my gas tank.






I feel dumb now.

Hope you had an inline gas filter...

Offline Rgconner

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Re: Dyna beads evaluation
« Reply #38 on: November 29, 2011, 12:01:54 PM »
I put them in my gas tank.






I feel dumb now.

Hope you had an inline gas filter...

One of the magnetic ones.
1975 CB550K aka "Grease Monkey"

Offline Duke McDukiedook

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Re: Dyna beads evaluation
« Reply #39 on: November 29, 2011, 12:14:23 PM »
Oh #$%*, another thought experiment.  ::)

These beads working are about as crazy as the plane lifting off.  ::)

 ;D ;D ;D
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Offline Rgconner

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Re: Dyna beads evaluation
« Reply #40 on: November 29, 2011, 12:18:59 PM »
Oh #$%*, another thought experiment.  ::)

These beads working are about as crazy as the plane lifting off.  ::)

 ;D ;D ;D

Meh.

The string experiment is as easy as building a paper airplane.

But hey, we would not want to put the Billy May's of the world out of business!

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Offline heffay

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Re: Dyna beads evaluation
« Reply #41 on: November 29, 2011, 12:41:21 PM »
ok... so, i may recant my "the physics make sense" comment  :D
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Offline Roach Carver

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Re: Dyna beads evaluation
« Reply #42 on: November 29, 2011, 12:42:59 PM »
Now I am really confused. do they go in the gas tank or on a string? Is this some sort of kite flying, vibration dampening do hicky.

Offline Rgconner

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Re: Dyna beads evaluation
« Reply #43 on: November 29, 2011, 12:47:17 PM »
Now I am really confused. do they go in the gas tank or on a string? Is this some sort of kite flying, vibration dampening do hicky.

That is the older version, Dino Beads.

Very rare.

Some people say they fell from the sky, but that is just silly.
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Offline Rigid

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Re: Dyna beads evaluation
« Reply #44 on: November 29, 2011, 01:11:46 PM »
" magical friction free fluid" I knew a girl like that once.............but I digress.  Seriously?  Can't this all be explained with fluid dynamics and vectors?  Pictures or it didn't happen.
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Offline Retro Rocket

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Re: Dyna beads evaluation
« Reply #45 on: November 29, 2011, 01:59:51 PM »
You could do this !.......... get a box of those little fishing lead weight balls,  weigh each one  ::) to be sure they are all the exact same weight, the ones with the split that wrap onto the fishing line and wrap one around each wheel spoke right at the rim end of the spoke. Be sure to do each spoke. Ride bike and enjoy. Any change in wheel performance, wobble, shake vibration would be all imaginary. Some folks on this Forum like doing things so they can imagine some 'gain', heck, some folks here love their imaginary bikes  and will rant about their fabulous  improvements from stock. ;) :) It's all good !

Someones off their meds again..... ::)
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Offline Rigid

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Re: Dyna beads evaluation
« Reply #46 on: November 29, 2011, 03:19:35 PM »
You could do this !.......... get a box of those little fishing lead weight balls,  weigh each one  ::) to be sure they are all the exact same weight, the ones with the split that wrap onto the fishing line and wrap one around each wheel spoke right at the rim end of the spoke. Be sure to do each spoke. Ride bike and enjoy. Any change in wheel performance, wobble, shake vibration would be all imaginary. Some folks on this Forum like doing things so they can imagine some 'gain', heck, some folks here love their imaginary bikes  and will rant about their fabulous  improvements from stock. ;) :) It's all good !

Someones off their meds again..... ::)

I believe he was referring to you about the imaginary bike, fool.
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Offline FuZZie

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Re: Dyna beads evaluation
« Reply #47 on: November 29, 2011, 05:22:24 PM »
I think you covered it all very nicely Retro

Quote
because these things are not recommended for high speed riding and hard cornering {very vague, what speed.? define hard cornering.?} i am never going to use them because i do not want to be finding those limits half way round a corner.

Offline Retro Rocket

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Re: Dyna beads evaluation
« Reply #48 on: November 29, 2011, 05:25:34 PM »
You could do this !.......... get a box of those little fishing lead weight balls,  weigh each one  ::) to be sure they are all the exact same weight, the ones with the split that wrap onto the fishing line and wrap one around each wheel spoke right at the rim end of the spoke. Be sure to do each spoke. Ride bike and enjoy. Any change in wheel performance, wobble, shake vibration would be all imaginary. Some folks on this Forum like doing things so they can imagine some 'gain', heck, some folks here love their imaginary bikes  and will rant about their fabulous  improvements from stock. ;) :) It's all good !

Someones off their meds again..... ::)

I believe he was referring to you about the imaginary bike, fool.

King custard menstrual cycles, why don't you grow a brain and practice using it, i knew it wouldn't be long before you resorted back to your pathetic over blown self. I knew exactly what he was on about....
Now lets see if you can mind your own friggin business....
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Offline Retro Rocket

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Re: Dyna beads evaluation
« Reply #49 on: November 29, 2011, 05:26:23 PM »
I think you covered it all very nicely Retro

Quote
because these things are not recommended for high speed riding and hard cornering {very vague, what speed.? define hard cornering.?} i am never going to use them because i do not want to be finding those limits half way round a corner.

Thanks Fuzzie. its a pity that some of the other morons in this thread didn't keep on topic.... ;)
750 K2 1000cc
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If You can't fix it with a hammer, You've got an electrical problem.