Author Topic: using 900 parts in a cb750  (Read 9842 times)

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Offline KRONUS0100

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using 900 parts in a cb750
« on: November 28, 2011, 10:21:43 am »
stoopid noob type question here.  my 72 750 cylinders just went to hell......i think even beyond boring for 850...........not sure what really happened.this motor was built 2 yrs ago and was suare at that time, and I dont really ride hard.  what is involved in using 900 cylinders and pistons, and maybe the rods,and what year and model do i need for a donor?  I have access to several bikes and motors.including a 78 F motor that needs full rebuild.  I have seen several posts about the 900 parts, but no specifics.  thanks for any info.
MATT
current bikes:  1976 CB750F, 1981 GS1100E
bikes owned:1981 GL1100I, 1990 GS500E, 1981 GS850, 1977 and 1979 GS750, 1974 CB750, 1975 CB750, and a 1982 GS750E

Offline voxonda

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Re: using 900 parts in a cb750
« Reply #1 on: November 28, 2011, 10:30:51 am »
If your thinking 900 DOHC cylinders, forget it. No chance that'll fit. Distance between studs is different etc.

Better sorry for failing then for the lack of trying.

Offline jweeks

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Re: using 900 parts in a cb750
« Reply #2 on: December 02, 2011, 01:25:22 pm »
Voxonda, you wouldn't want to bet me on that would you?  He's asking about using the sleeves from an early 80's CB900F in a 70's CB750 block. The early 80's 900cc Honda's had 6 mm more stroke than the 70's CB750's. They didn't get 900cc out of just bigger pistons. You can bore the upper case half  of your 750 for slight clearance to the od of the 900 sleeves. Bore the block for the od of the sleeve minus the few thou that keeps the sleeves in place. Heat the block, slide in the sleeves and you're in business. The rod lengths are different between the two motors; the sleeve length is also probably different as well. Some machining can fix those problems. It isn't easy, but it sure can be done. The pistons from a four valve motor don't adapt well to a two valve cylinder head.(valve pocket differences) Older Kawasaki two valve pistons would adapt easier. This wouldn't be a cheap improvement. I'd just get a 836 kit and install it on a CB750 block that needs a rebuild and call it good.

     The CB750/900F/1100F DOHC block is exactly on the same bore centers as the 70's CB750's. Bore out the upper case half for the od of the 900F sleeves and the block will drop onto the motor. Since none of the cylinder studs line up; it isn't useable. But it does fit.  With a little grinding to the backside of that upper case half of your CB750 for clearance, you can also drop in the 900F crank. Not for the casual street driver, but for drag racers, it really helps with the stroke increase.

     I race a CB750A with the 80's CB900F crank. Mike Reick knows that the 1100F Honda block can be fitted to a 70's CB750 case. He has the parts that I modified to prove it. Just because it can be done, I don't recommend any parts of it for the average rebuild. Save your $$ unless your machinist doesn't charge much...

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Offline KRONUS0100

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Re: using 900 parts in a cb750
« Reply #3 on: December 02, 2011, 01:55:21 pm »
yeah it was mainly just the sleeves i was wondering about..bad choice of wording on my part in the question
MATT
current bikes:  1976 CB750F, 1981 GS1100E
bikes owned:1981 GL1100I, 1990 GS500E, 1981 GS850, 1977 and 1979 GS750, 1974 CB750, 1975 CB750, and a 1982 GS750E

Offline voxonda

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Re: using 900 parts in a cb750
« Reply #4 on: December 02, 2011, 02:11:05 pm »
Hey guys,

Sorry for my misunderstanding the question. Thought Kronus talked about the whole cylinderblock. Well sleeves and pistons are a different matter, like JWEEKS explained. I have had 900 sleeves in my former 850 build. And using the pistons is pretty common to get 822cc from our SOHC. Our friend Howell here had that in his engine too.

As for making a cylinderblock to fit the sohc cases, of course everything can be done, but at costs and one should ask himself "is it worth the trouble", I say NO! If you want to do it just to prove it can be made to fit, like I said (almost) everything is possible. No argument here.

Cheers, Rob

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Offline dragracer

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Re: using 900 parts in a cb750
« Reply #5 on: December 03, 2011, 11:50:06 pm »
Voxonda, you wouldn't want to bet me on that would you?  He's asking about using the sleeves from an early 80's CB900F in a 70's CB750 block. The early 80's 900cc Honda's had 6 mm more stroke than the 70's CB750's. They didn't get 900cc out of just bigger pistons. You can bore the upper case half  of your 750 for slight clearance to the od of the 900 sleeves. Bore the block for the od of the sleeve minus the few thou that keeps the sleeves in place. Heat the block, slide in the sleeves and you're in business. The rod lengths are different between the two motors; the sleeve length is also probably different as well. Some machining can fix those problems. It isn't easy, but it sure can be done. The pistons from a four valve motor don't adapt well to a two valve cylinder head.(valve pocket differences) Older Kawasaki two valve pistons would adapt easier. This wouldn't be a cheap improvement. I'd just get a 836 kit and install it on a CB750 block that needs a rebuild and call it good.

     The CB750/900F/1100F DOHC block is exactly on the same bore centers as the 70's CB750's. Bore out the upper case half for the od of the 900F sleeves and the block will drop onto the motor. Since none of the cylinder studs line up; it isn't useable. But it does fit.  With a little grinding to the backside of that upper case half of your CB750 for clearance, you can also drop in the 900F crank. Not for the casual street driver, but for drag racers, it really helps with the stroke increase.

     I race a CB750A with the 80's CB900F crank. Mike Reick knows that the 1100F Honda block can be fitted to a 70's CB750 case. He has the parts that I modified to prove it. Just because it can be done, I don't recommend any parts of it for the average rebuild. Save your $$ unless your machinist doesn't charge much...

                                                                                             Hondamatic

Hey Jon,

Did you ever post any details on the installation of that 900DOHC crank into the SOHC cases?? Can you point me in the direction of that thread?? I know i saw something on the Satanic Mechanic site once about this but it was not followed through from inception to a running engine. How many mm was the stroke increase over the stock SOHC???

Oh, and can those 900 sleeves be safely bored out to 72mm??

Offline Bill/BentON Racing

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Re: using 900 parts in a cb750
« Reply #6 on: December 04, 2011, 06:32:20 am »
Frank,sounds like you thinking BIG!!!!!! ;) ;D Bill
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Over 35 years of experience working on vintage motorcycles, with a speciality in Honda SOHC/4 with a focus on the CB750 and other models as well from 1966 - 1985.
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1993 HRC RS125 | 1984 NS400R | 1974 Honda CB750/836cc (Calendar Girl) | 1972 CB 500/550 Yoshi Kitted 590cc | 1965 Honda CB450 Black Bomber | 1972 Suzuki T350 | 1973 88cc | Z50/Falcons Pit Bike | 1967 CA100| 1974 CB350 (400F motor)...and more.
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Offline jweeks

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Re: using 900 parts in a cb750
« Reply #7 on: December 04, 2011, 06:56:11 am »
"had 6 mm more stroke"

The webbing supporting the main bearing saddles needs a little grinding to clear the crank. Nothing significant but a little touch-up in several spots. Just dropping the crank into the upper case half is the go/no go gage.  That's the easy part.

The crank ends are opposite the SOHC crank ones. The tapered snout on the 900F crank is where the 750 crank does timing. The snout is cut off (it's soft) to match the 750 crank end length. My machinist spun the crank to cut off the snout. The cut end is then recessed to match the 750 end. Use the casting line to locate the hole for the timing plate pin. After that the stock timing system from the 750 works fine * (IF you use the appropriate 900F crank seals, not the stock 750 ones.)

The other end has a tapped hole in the end. I haven't yet figured out how to attach the kick start gear and or generating system. I just use a bolt with a welded nut on the end to my external starter. Use plenty of Loctite.

I had a 3mm steel spacer made to the bottom of the block sleeves. If everything is flat and square, just a little sealant and everything is sealed up. The  thickness of the spacer requires two opposing o-rings where the block normally uses one. When you have everything on the bench, it becomes very logical from just looking at how it was originally sealed. I used aftermarket stock length rods. If you go with DOHC rods, the length varies as does your spacing requirements.

Ok, a little bit of work, but not a lot of $$. Where's the catch? Hi-Vo chain. Not an issue for a Hondamatic, but for a clutch version you need early Goldwing clutch parts. There's one tooth more on the crank, which spins your tranny about 8% faster. The stock tensioner for your primary chain must be cut down to clear the new chain. The challenge is how to put a tensioner that works back into the system. For drag racing, with more frequent maintenance, you may manually  adjust the chain tension with rub pads getting shimmed.  On the street, well you can't start it, and using any screw adjustment for the primary chain through the bottom of the case is a built in likely oil leak. (aka, not recommended. ;))

Yes, there's more: the cam chain is different. You have to use the 900F style cam chain. Take the center of a 750 cam sprocket and weld the outer 900F cam sprocket to it. I did it using the stock steel sprockets for better weld strength. Slotted the mounting holes in the resulting hybrid sprocket since you must check the cam timing after reassembling this setup. The cam chain is wider than the stock 750 one. Use the 900f tensioner parts to "rub" the chain the right way.

Yes, everything that swings has clearance. There's actually some more room left. I talked with Big Jay at Valdosta about stroking a 900F crank a little more for my "big" Hondamatic motor. 1200+ cc's can be done.

I haven't used 900F sleeves in a 750. Wouldn't know how much they can be overbored. Suspect that 71mm is out of the question.

Let's not forget the 1100F crank. It uses a heavier cam chain than the 900F does. The extra mass isn't desired for drag racing. People dragging the 1100F went with the 900F crank (same stroke) to get the lighter cam chain.  Now you can forget the 1100F  ;)

Hope this helps?

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« Last Edit: December 05, 2011, 08:31:11 am by JWEEKS »

Offline Retro Rocket

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Re: using 900 parts in a cb750
« Reply #8 on: December 04, 2011, 03:10:31 pm »
Quote
Did you ever post any details on the installation of that 900DOHC crank into the SOHC cases??

Thats quite a common mod in Historic racing here, some of the old 750/4 race bikes here are around 1200 cc using boldor cranks...
Rex Wolfenden is the guy that made them popular and has dominated period 4 Historic racing here for years. No specs in this write up but an interesting read...

http://www.mctrader.com.au/news-and-reviews/article/articleid/72640.aspx
750 K2 1000cc
750 F1 970cc
750 Bitsa 900cc
If You can't fix it with a hammer, You've got an electrical problem.

Offline dragracer

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Re: using 900 parts in a cb750
« Reply #9 on: December 04, 2011, 08:19:51 pm »
Jon,
 an
As usual you've given a lot of insight. Thanks for the information. I may just get my hands on a 900 crank and start dreaming-lol.

Offline Sam Green Racing

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Re: using 900 parts in a cb750
« Reply #10 on: December 05, 2011, 03:36:34 am »
Quote
Did you ever post any details on the installation of that 900DOHC crank into the SOHC cases??

Thats quite a common mod in Historic racing here, some of the old 750/4 race bikes here are around 1200 cc using boldor cranks...
Rex Wolfenden is the guy that made them popular and has dominated period 4 Historic racing here for years. No specs in this write up but an interesting read...

http://www.mctrader.com.au/news-and-reviews/article/articleid/72640.aspx

Talking about big Ausi motors Mick, have you heard anything from Brian (bear)
I've PMed him a few times but he ain't been in here for a few weeks.

Sam. :(
C95 sprint bike.
CB95 hybrid race bike
CB95 race bike
CB92
RS 175. sprint/land speed bike
JMR Racing CB750A street ET drag bike

Offline Retro Rocket

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Re: using 900 parts in a cb750
« Reply #11 on: December 05, 2011, 03:45:39 am »
No Sam, haven't heard a peep.... If he's racing he could be away from home.?
750 K2 1000cc
750 F1 970cc
750 Bitsa 900cc
If You can't fix it with a hammer, You've got an electrical problem.

Offline mec

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Re: using 900 parts in a cb750
« Reply #12 on: December 05, 2011, 04:13:29 am »
Honda Monkey
Takeuchi TB 070
Massey Ferguson

Offline fang

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Re: using 900 parts in a cb750
« Reply #13 on: December 05, 2011, 04:03:33 pm »
The "T-Rex" machines have always been an inspiration to me.  Thanks for the good links!

Speaking of Stroker Motors, don't forget that Jay at APE -- a supporter of this forum -- can make you a SOHC Stroker crank to order, which would allow you to not do all the HiVo stuff.  IMHO, the $855 currently advertised on his website is a STEAL if a stroker is what you long for....  Plus there is a strong argument that the Heavy Duty (stock-style) primary chains are a stronger/better choice for high revving, light-weight motors.
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Offline jweeks

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Re: using 900 parts in a cb750
« Reply #14 on: December 06, 2011, 09:51:46 am »
I briefly talked with Jay at Valdosta in November. If you wonder why his cranks are 5mm more, there's a simple reason. When you build up the crank with weld to offset the stroke, you change the oil holes location. It's no longer centered. 5mm was the maximum that he felt you could go and still properly oil the bearings.

                                                                                                     Jon Weeks