Author Topic: Velocity Stack Filters  (Read 13228 times)

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Offline UGly

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Velocity Stack Filters
« on: November 28, 2011, 11:35:46 AM »
I want to get rid of the airbox on my bike but I dont want to use pod filters. I was wondering if anyone has used these velocity stack filters before and if they worked good?

http://www.pjmotorsports.com/velocity-stack-filters.html

Or if there are any better solutions out there?
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Offline heffay

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Re: Velocity Stack Filters
« Reply #1 on: November 28, 2011, 11:42:56 AM »
wouldn't be a velo stack anymore.  just run it without filters. 















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Offline Rigid

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Re: Velocity Stack Filters
« Reply #2 on: November 28, 2011, 12:05:47 PM »
wouldn't be a velo stack anymore.  just run it without filters. 

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Offline UGly

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Re: Velocity Stack Filters
« Reply #3 on: November 28, 2011, 12:24:28 PM »
haha would you be able to elaborate heffay?

I read in an old post about how pod filters cause dips in power due to restrictive air flow that are equalized by an (performance?) exhaust setup (only noticeable on a dyno). Supposedly velocity stacks are perfect because instead of trying to forcefully draw air into a tube it allows the air to flow in, however an unfiltered setup would allow debris to be sucked in ruining the internals of the bike. I'm just wondering if you mean it would no longer be a velo stack because they dont naturally have filters on them? or if theres some reason that these filters would nullify the positive effects of the velo stack?

sorry if my question seems dumb, I'm new to the mechanics side of motorcycles.
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Offline Rigid

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Re: Velocity Stack Filters
« Reply #4 on: November 28, 2011, 12:33:00 PM »
UGly,  bear with us for a moment, then someone may actually help you with your questions:

popcorn - check
Diet Coke - check
cold outside - check

OK, proceed with the pods thread........................
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Offline heffay

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Re: Velocity Stack Filters
« Reply #5 on: November 28, 2011, 02:14:08 PM »
I will elaborate to a certain point, then the smarties will take over...

The velocity stack is designed with "the perfect flow" in mind.  The "filter" adds turbulence. 

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Offline Retro Rocket

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Re: Velocity Stack Filters
« Reply #6 on: November 28, 2011, 02:19:13 PM »
I want to get rid of the airbox on my bike but I dont want to use pod filters. I was wondering if anyone has used these velocity stack filters before and if they worked good?

http://www.pjmotorsports.com/velocity-stack-filters.html

Or if there are any better solutions out there?

Here you go mate, this design actually works very well....


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Offline TwoTired

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Re: Velocity Stack Filters
« Reply #7 on: November 28, 2011, 03:11:36 PM »
I've explained some of this already.  I think it is still there in the FAQ.

First learn the difference between Laminar and turbulent air flow.  See 1st pic.

This link has some interesting animations to help in understanding.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/K%C3%A1rm%C3%A1n_vortex_street

Know that air has weight or mass.  Like street traffic, if all the molecules or sections of molecules are moving the same direction, overall flow maximized.  If any elements stop or back up, at least some of the traffic is slowed down.

A velocity stack needs laminar flow at the entrance in order to make it's effect beneficial.  While you can put aerodynamic shapes into a laminar air stream and keep the laminar capability fore and aft of it. I don't believe there is an air filter membrane design in existence that does so.  Further, if it DID have an aerodynamic quality, that quality would be lost as soon as it began trapping and holding dirt particles within it.  (Which is probably the reason why no aerodynamic filters exist.)

So, what you want is your velocity stack to do what the second pic shows.  But, if you put a filter at the entrance, that air is not laminar, but turbulent which negates any benefit a velocity stack may have had.

That's the short of it.
There is more complexity with Vstack bell shapes and their length, as well as if at higher velocities the turbulence reaches far enough into the carb throats to effect fuel jet flow and thus air flow ratios.

You may also wish to be aware that cross flows into the open velocity stacks also create turbulence (variable with the crosswind) inside an open V stack.  One of the reasons for the stock air box is to completely negate and cross wind or other turbulent effects at the carb or inlet funnel entrance.  Of course, the stock air box was designed primarily for all RPM, all weather, street driving, rather than race track controlled conditions and driving at only high RPM operation.

Cheers,
Lloyd... (SOHC4 #11 Original Mail List)
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Offline verslagen1

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Re: Velocity Stack Filters
« Reply #8 on: November 28, 2011, 06:41:07 PM »
Here's why pod filters aren't as good as an airbox...

From our meanderings, it was decided for best effect, to keep the stock length of the intake.
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Online scottly

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Re: Velocity Stack Filters
« Reply #9 on: November 28, 2011, 06:43:35 PM »
Tintop's setup would be much better at both air-flow and filtering than those filters. Or, you could use UNI type foam filters over the stacks. (Tintop's looks better, though. ;))
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Offline wookie

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Re: Velocity Stack Filters
« Reply #10 on: November 28, 2011, 07:43:14 PM »
I have run the cr's with pods, stacks, stacks with those filters.  When i had it dyno-tuned it ran best with just stacks but with engine longevity in mind i put the screens in front and my butt dyno hasn't felt the loss..  my two bits.

Offline UGly

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Re: Velocity Stack Filters
« Reply #11 on: November 28, 2011, 11:40:51 PM »
Thats an amazing wealth of info. So the airbox creates an artificial environment where turbulent airflow can be converted to laminar thus allowing the velo stacks to perform efficiently. Does anybody know if the size of the airbox effects the stacks performance? does it need all the space to provide enough flow for the stacks? or can a custom box be created to form fit a filter (just a UNI foam square per say) and not restrict flow due to insufficient "air storage" space?

I dont know if asking something thats impossible to answer, but curiosity always seems to get the best of me. Thanks everyone for all the info. TwoTired do you have a website or a book i can read, or do i just have to go through all your posts! haha
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Offline TwoTired

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Re: Velocity Stack Filters
« Reply #12 on: November 29, 2011, 12:22:13 AM »
I think you are getting a good grasp of the issues.
I always thought that curiosity was one of the best tools to gain knowledge.  ;D

What you are asking is difficult to answer easily, succinctly, and quickly.
Perhaps you can build on this:

In an air stream where air as been made turbulent, the turbulence extends beyond the obstruction that caused it (in this case the filter media) at a length determined by the velocity of the air.  Within duct work, it is also related to the volume or mass quantity being moved.

At idle where low volumes of air are moving, the turbulence may extend only a short distance from the filter media.  At high RPM, where the engine is moving larger volumes of air, the speed through a fixed size duct greatly increases, and the "fingers" (if you will) of turbulence from the filter or other obstruction/feature causing impedance, extend a greater distance.

I haven't done personal testing, but the stock arrangement may have an RPM point where the plenum isn't large enough to prevent turbulence from reaching the carb throats. Presumably, that RPM/air volume/speed is above what occurs up to the stock red line with a standard displacement engine and cam.  I'm assuming the teams of Honda engineers and test technicians did the right thing for their machine.  But, if you modify the engine volumetrics, you may well need something different regarding induction design.  There is no one device that does all things well in all situations/conditions.

Hope this helps.

Sorry, I have no web site or book.  I'm thinking about it, though.  ;D

Perhaps you can identify what mods or function you have that require more air flow than the stock air induction?

Cheers,
Lloyd... (SOHC4 #11 Original Mail List)
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Offline kyre

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Re: Velocity Stack Filters
« Reply #13 on: November 29, 2011, 01:20:25 PM »
I'd give those a shot, I've been running stacks with a makeshift system like those for 7/8 years with no issues. I basically have stacks, made a uni filter sandwich with 2 screens, and holds together with a rubber booty that fit around the stacks.
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Offline bikerbart

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Re: Velocity Stack Filters
« Reply #14 on: November 29, 2011, 03:56:08 PM »
Rubber booty ;D ;D ;D
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Online scottly

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Re: Velocity Stack Filters
« Reply #15 on: November 29, 2011, 04:50:31 PM »
a book i can read
The Scientific Design of Exhaust and Intake Systems, by Philip H. Smith.
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Offline UGly

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Re: Velocity Stack Filters
« Reply #16 on: November 29, 2011, 04:58:05 PM »
Hey TwoTired, dont have the money to do anything yet, just researching and planning a path for when im ready  ;D. The way i look at it, never hurts to know more than you need. Thanks scottly for the book name an kyre do you got a pic of that setup your running?
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Offline Tintop

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Re: Velocity Stack Filters
« Reply #17 on: November 29, 2011, 06:30:23 PM »
I'll add my .02 here, and thanks for the plug RR. :)

1st the stock air box setup.  There are two restrictions with this system.  The first is the paper filter itself, and the second is the size of the hole that joins it to the plenum.  As TT has pointed out if the rest of the system/engine is stock this will give the best overall engine performance regarding idle, and part throttle response.  Honda spent lots of engineering $'s to get the best compromise.  However, the restriction(s) in the stock design limits the engine's ability to breath at WOT.  Changing the stock filter for a foam Uni, or K&N in the stock air box will improve the top end speed (bwaller got an additional 5mph+).

As for stacks.  The stock setup uses stacks, however they are now a 35+ year old design, and not in line with current practice.  As TT pointed out, placing anything over the mouth of the stack will negate some or all of the effectiveness of the stacks because of the air flow disruption.  The screen type are the worst, because they provide poor filtering, and all that wire actually reduces the air volume.  They keep out kids, and rocks, but not engine killing dust.  Modern stack design now uses a 'rolled' bell mouth, which has been shown to be 2 to 3% more effective than the original Honda stack design.  In addition, the rule of thumb is that there needs to be a minimum distance between the bell mouth, and the inner face of the filter equivalent to the carb throat dia.  This is the minimum distance required for the air flow to become laminar after passing through the filter.  An open stack on a dyno will always produce a better result, than with a filter.  However, that is an artificial environment.  Even F1 cars, and MotoGP bikes run filters.
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Offline Retro Rocket

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Re: Velocity Stack Filters
« Reply #18 on: November 29, 2011, 06:43:49 PM »
Quote
I'll add my .02 here, and thanks for the plug RR. :)

My pleasure Brian... ;)
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Offline grcamna2

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Re: Velocity Stack Filters
« Reply #19 on: November 29, 2011, 08:15:30 PM »
Has any one ever experimented w/ swapping stock airboxes from similar model machines ?? and then swapping carbs & cams,exhaust,etc. ? I imagine there must come a point where one would just want to get the entire other model motorcycle for the different performance curves.The manufactures know how to design these so that everything works well in harmony w/ all of it's O.E Original parts installed.I'm just kind of thinking out loud...please forgive me for rambling.
I think if I could afford it,I would have an entire garage collection of motorcycles such as ekpent has...has any one ever literally gone over to his "stable" and seen the motorcycles that he owns?? He is a serious collector from what I have read here.
I suppose I'm just thinking it is difficult to improve on all-around Stock high performance...I imagine it must take a real lot of inspiration & effort to get much bigger power out of these original designs & do it w/o having an entire engineering team working for you.
                                       I enjoy all of you doing great mods to your engines !
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Offline Retro Rocket

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Re: Velocity Stack Filters
« Reply #20 on: November 29, 2011, 08:42:53 PM »
Terry in Australia{forum name} had a 836 kitted 750 with later model 34mmCV's of an Aussie model CBX750 Honda, also running a modded airbox, he said the throttle action was light as a feather and the bike went great, it also had wider rims, FZR front suspension and brakes, he said it is the best handling 750/4 he ever rode. Do a search for "Goldie" and have a look, it won Bike of the month sometime last year .....
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Offline grcamna2

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Re: Velocity Stack Filters
« Reply #21 on: November 29, 2011, 09:33:47 PM »
I would love to go for a ride on that Beauty ! Do you there in Australia have your warm season right now ? !
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Offline Retro Rocket

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Re: Velocity Stack Filters
« Reply #22 on: November 29, 2011, 10:35:18 PM »
I would love to go for a ride on that Beauty ! Do you there in Australia have your warm season right now ? !

It sure is, its around 90 F today and rising, our winter is akin to your "warm" seasons there..... ;D
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Offline grcamna2

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Re: Velocity Stack Filters
« Reply #23 on: November 29, 2011, 11:16:41 PM »
The motorcycle season...is it year round or just when it's warm? Do you have a very cold time of year ?
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Offline Retro Rocket

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Re: Velocity Stack Filters
« Reply #24 on: November 30, 2011, 12:49:35 AM »
The motorcycle season...is it year round or just when it's warm? Do you have a very cold time of year ?

It gets as low as 50 F sometimes in winter but only for a couple of weeks if at all, 60F during the day on a cold day. all year riding easily, bikes were my main transport for 25 years, didn't even have a car license until i was 40-41, had around {will have to count one day} 40 bikes, 20+ Old Honda's....
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