Author Topic: 74 550K starting issue, high RPM issue.  (Read 6469 times)

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Offline Dimitri13

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74 550K starting issue, high RPM issue.
« on: December 15, 2011, 02:16:11 PM »
First off, it's stock airbox with a mac 4-1 exhaust (no rejet needed). The carbs were recently rebuilt, and all periodic maintenance (timing, points, valves, etc) performed. The spark plug caps were also recently replaced with 5k ohm ones. I know stock is 10k, but I couldn't find them, and researching it, 5k is an acceptable replacement.

I've finally got it running like a normal bike, except for two things.

To start it up after sitting in the garage overnight (Hawaii, so it's not particularly cold), it NEEDS choke, but only for a second. Choke needs to be opened as soon as it starts up or it dies out. In addition, the throttle needs to be opened a bit or it dies out. It takes a few minutes for it to idle properly. After being warmed up and ridden, it'll start up just fine if it's been sitting for a few minutes. Anything more than that (15+ minutes), and it'll either idle low, or needs a bit of throttle until it warms up again. I'm no carb pro, so I can't really diagnose anything in my head, but I have a hunch it may be the a/f screws?

The other problem is that the engine feels and sounds surgy at high (6k+) RPMs. I'm not sure if it's a fuel flow problem, carb problem, engine problem, or electrical problem. I know that the amount of throttle given doesn't change any thing (1/4 throttle will give the same problem as WOT).

Offline TwoTired

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Re: 74 550K starting issue, high RPM issue.
« Reply #1 on: December 15, 2011, 04:27:05 PM »
To start it up after sitting in the garage overnight (Hawaii, so it's not particularly cold), it NEEDS choke, but only for a second. Choke needs to be opened as soon as it starts up or it dies out. In addition, the throttle needs to be opened a bit or it dies out. It takes a few minutes for it to idle properly. After being warmed up and ridden, it'll start up just fine if it's been sitting for a few minutes. Anything more than that (15+ minutes), and it'll either idle low, or needs a bit of throttle until it warms up again. I'm no carb pro, so I can't really diagnose anything in my head, but I have a hunch it may be the a/f screws?

All sounds normal for this model.  New air filter?  It is optimally tuned for/at normal operating temperature.  Since there are no automatic controls, it is up to the operator to supply engine needs when cold, which is different than when hot.  What setting do you have on the pilot screws?

The other problem is that the engine feels and sounds surgy at high (6k+) RPMs. I'm not sure if it's a fuel flow problem, carb problem, engine problem, or electrical problem. I know that the amount of throttle given doesn't change any thing (1/4 throttle will give the same problem as WOT).

Are all the head pipes hot?  Does the deposit pattern on the spark plugs show anything we can use?
Lloyd... (SOHC4 #11 Original Mail List)
72 500, 74 550, 75 550K, 75 550F, 76 550F, 77 550F X2, 78 550K, 77 750F X2, 78 750F, 79CX500, 85 700SC, GL1100

Those that learn from history are doomed to repeat it by those that don't learn from history.

Offline Dimitri13

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Re: 74 550K starting issue, high RPM issue.
« Reply #2 on: December 15, 2011, 09:31:26 PM »
I guess I was spoiled by a new bike. All the screws and jets are at stock settings. Pilot screws are at 1 1/2 turns.

All the headers seem equally hot. The spark plugs look like this, which I don't think really matches any of the 'common conditions' pictures.

The tip of the electrode seems to be bare metal, with no deposits on it. The deposits on the rest of it LOOK like oil, but it's solid and rough. The tip of the electrode is also rough. The plugs are only about 500 miles old.



« Last Edit: December 15, 2011, 09:33:03 PM by Dimitri13 »

Offline dave500

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Re: 74 550K starting issue, high RPM issue.
« Reply #3 on: December 15, 2011, 09:59:49 PM »
was the air filter included in the maintainence?it looks rich all over?

Offline Dimitri13

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Re: 74 550K starting issue, high RPM issue.
« Reply #4 on: December 15, 2011, 10:05:05 PM »
I cleaned the air filter, but I haven't replaced it. I was told it was fairly new when I got the bike, but judging by the honesty of the PO and problems present, I wouldn't be surprised if it was 37 years old.

Offline TwoTired

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Re: 74 550K starting issue, high RPM issue.
« Reply #5 on: December 15, 2011, 10:26:22 PM »
I think the bike is worth a new air filter.

Is it leaving deposits in the exhaust system?  Are they black, too?  If so is it powdery black, or oily black?

Kinda nasty looking plugs for only 500 miles has it been idling a lot?  Does it see red line ...like ever?

What heat range are those plugs?
Lloyd... (SOHC4 #11 Original Mail List)
72 500, 74 550, 75 550K, 75 550F, 76 550F, 77 550F X2, 78 550K, 77 750F X2, 78 750F, 79CX500, 85 700SC, GL1100

Those that learn from history are doomed to repeat it by those that don't learn from history.

Offline dave500

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Re: 74 550K starting issue, high RPM issue.
« Reply #6 on: December 15, 2011, 10:28:50 PM »
try it without the airfilter just to judge the starting,is the bike using oil or blowing smoke?you might need someone to follow you for a smoke check,who recently rebuilt the carbs?you or the po or his mechanic?if the jets havent been altered the floats might even be too high?
« Last Edit: December 15, 2011, 10:31:31 PM by dave500 »

Offline Dimitri13

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Re: 74 550K starting issue, high RPM issue.
« Reply #7 on: December 15, 2011, 10:57:12 PM »
I'll look for a new air filter, but I'll try starting without one tomorrow.

The exhaust has a powdery black deposit. There's popping on deceleration, so I know it's a bit rich, but not sure how much.

My shift point is fairly high, 7-8k, and I'll cruise at about 6-7k. I do like to get the revs high every once in a while, so it'll be at 10-11k for a bit.

The plugs are D7EA.. I'm not sure what heat range that is, but it's whatever the manual said.

The bike doesn't seem to be using oil or blowing smoke. Only oil loss is from the drain plug. I rebuilt the carbs and ensured the float levels were correct as well as the jets were the correct size.

Offline dave500

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Re: 74 550K starting issue, high RPM issue.
« Reply #8 on: December 16, 2011, 12:23:14 AM »
popping on decell is mostly lean or an airleak?id go over your ignition once more,were the points and condensors new or just cleaned and reset?it could even be weak spark,do you use a timing light or just static?check the advancer is free to move,you can drop the bowls with the carbs still on the bike to check the floats,,you dont depress that damper spring at all when setting the floats,just touch it,if its depressed during setting the floats will end up high and a rich mixture throughout will be the outcome,,id drop one or two bowls just to make sure,,after youve double checked the ignition,and fitted new plugs.

Offline Dimitri13

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Re: 74 550K starting issue, high RPM issue.
« Reply #9 on: December 16, 2011, 12:48:25 AM »
I thought popping on decel was rich? Doing a once-over of the ignition/points this weekend. They were set perfectly a few weeks ago with a timing light. I've disassembled the carbs about 5 times in 2 months for various reasons and I'm 110% positive the floats are at the proper height. I MIGHT be removing the carbs just to ensure they're still clean. It's a might because I HATE having to remove/install the airbox from the carbs.

Should I try a hotter plug?

Offline TwoTired

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Re: 74 550K starting issue, high RPM issue.
« Reply #10 on: December 16, 2011, 12:57:16 AM »
The exhaust has a powdery black deposit.
Is it dry or oily?

There's popping on deceleration, so I know it's a bit rich, but not sure how much.
That's more often a lean condition.  But, could be leaky exhaust gaskets.  Does the Mac still have the original baffle?
Or, do you mean the popping is from the carbs?

My shift point is fairly high, 7-8k, and I'll cruise at about 6-7k. I do like to get the revs high every once in a while, so it'll be at 10-11k for a bit.
Er, red line is 9200.  If the engine has the stock valve springs, you are abusing the engine rather badly at 10-11K.  Is your tach operating correctly?

The plugs are D7EA.. I'm not sure what heat range that is, but it's whatever the manual said.
That's hotter than D8EA, which some like to recommend.   Some have assumed they use the same plug as the other 4s.  But, the 500-550 uses a hotter plug.   For the stock engine, I believe D7EA works best for general street use.  Note; you could use resistor plugs with those 5K caps. FYI

The bike doesn't seem to be using oil or blowing smoke. Only oil loss is from the drain plug. I rebuilt the carbs and ensured the float levels were correct as well as the jets were the correct size.

Float level by mechanical measurement or actual fuel level?  Measure the jet size or just note the numbers?  Did you check the slide needle position?  Were the carbs stamped 022a?
Did you clean the emulsion tubes (Main AND pilot) during the rebuild?
Lloyd... (SOHC4 #11 Original Mail List)
72 500, 74 550, 75 550K, 75 550F, 76 550F, 77 550F X2, 78 550K, 77 750F X2, 78 750F, 79CX500, 85 700SC, GL1100

Those that learn from history are doomed to repeat it by those that don't learn from history.

Offline Dimitri13

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Re: 74 550K starting issue, high RPM issue.
« Reply #11 on: December 16, 2011, 01:09:32 AM »
The exhaust deposits are dry. The exhaust and gaskets are only about two months old. It's completely intact.

As for the tach, I might have a non-stock one? I'm not sure. This is what it looks like, and what I'm going by when I state numbers:



I measured the float level mechanically. I haven't made a float level measuring device yet. I didn't measure the jets, but they do say what number they are. The needles are all in the stock position (4th from the top or whatever it is), as I put the clips on them myself. The carbs are stamped with 022A. I cleaned the emulsion tubes.


Offline dave500

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Re: 74 550K starting issue, high RPM issue.
« Reply #12 on: December 16, 2011, 02:05:57 AM »
the old tachos mostly speak with forked tongue,mine sort of stops about 7-8 grand but im sure its doing more,the d7ea plug will be ok as will 5kohm caps,let us know after youve checked the ignition again,,youve already had the carbs of over and over,,as most people do from time to time.

Offline Dimitri13

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Re: 74 550K starting issue, high RPM issue.
« Reply #13 on: December 16, 2011, 11:40:44 AM »
Alright, will do. Go gonna for a quick ride without the air filter. I reattached the crankcase breather tube, as I somehow forgot to put it back on. Turns out oil was spraying on my carbs and cylinder head, which I can assume was another source of the burnt oil/smoke (the first and second being the oil drain plug and oil pressure switch).

Offline TwoTired

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Re: 74 550K starting issue, high RPM issue.
« Reply #14 on: December 16, 2011, 11:54:09 AM »
The exhaust deposits are dry. The exhaust and gaskets are only about two months old. It's completely intact.
As long as there is no "ticking" noises coming from the the pipe to head interface, you are probably OK there.  The dry deposits support the "too rich" theory.

As for the tach, I might have a non-stock one? I'm not sure. This is what it looks like, and what I'm going by when I state numbers:
Looks like stock and shows the 9200 red line.  I can't imagine you actually had the engine operating at 10-11k.

I measured the float level mechanically. I haven't made a float level measuring device yet. I didn't measure the jets, but they do say what number they are. The needles are all in the stock position (4th from the top or whatever it is), as I put the clips on them myself. The carbs are stamped with 022A. I cleaned the emulsion tubes.

The dark spark plug deposits (along with equally hot head pipes) I interpret as a general rich condition.  It is indicative of combustion temps not reaching the level where the deposits "self-clean" off the plug electrodes and center insulator.  Extra fuel acts as a coolant, limiting the "self clean" action.
The surging you reported can easily be caused by those soot deposits, as the spark follows the soot/carbon trail, rather than jump the spark gap when the atmosphere between the gap makes forming an arc channel more difficult.  (Electrical current wants to follow the easiest path available.)
You could try brand new clean plugs to see if the "surging" stops.  But, if the mixtures remain rich, the that problem will return.  That center electrode insulator is porcelain and white.  A coating of black carbon defeats it's purpose.   Since you already have hotter plugs, the condition points to over rich mixtures.
It is certainly possible that an old air filter is causing excess restriction (similar to adding partial choke) and making the mixture rich across the entire operating band.  This would lead to sooting spark plugs and result in spark "misfires" where the current is channeled via the soot path rather than jump the electrodes.  This, of course, would make the soot build up even faster.

Personally, I don't believe there is an issue with your ignition system.  If new plugs cure the surging, and a new air filter doesn't cure the soot build up, then there is something in the carbs that is out of factory spec.  You may have to check for non factory parts or some field alterations made to the parts you have.  Have you considered using the UNI NU-4055 filter?

I thought I might explain the popping in the exhaust during decell.  It is caused by the build up of combustibles inside the exhaust system being ignited by a glowing ember.  An over rich mixture feeding the exhaust will pop when decell is followed by accell.  And over lean mixture causes a missed firing cycle and those unfired charges are expelled into the exhaust pipe, where an ember from another cylinder's exhaust can light it off, or subsequent fire cycle from the same cylinder can.  This latter situation was a real problem for 80's motorcycle "lean burn" carbs.  And, the factory cure was to add enrichment valves to sweeten the decell gasses and cool them before an explosion occurred inside the pipe.

Lloyd... (SOHC4 #11 Original Mail List)
72 500, 74 550, 75 550K, 75 550F, 76 550F, 77 550F X2, 78 550K, 77 750F X2, 78 750F, 79CX500, 85 700SC, GL1100

Those that learn from history are doomed to repeat it by those that don't learn from history.

Offline Dimitri13

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Re: 74 550K starting issue, high RPM issue.
« Reply #15 on: December 17, 2011, 12:06:22 AM »
Thanks for the explanation TT.

I'll look into the UNI filter. Probably amazon it, as I guarantee I won't be able to get it locally.

Would it help to lean the mixture with the pilot screws (tighten/clockwise, correct?) until I get it?


Offline dave500

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Re: 74 550K starting issue, high RPM issue.
« Reply #16 on: December 17, 2011, 01:01:35 AM »
clockwise=-rich,,less air in the idle circuit,and so forth.

Offline TwoTired

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Re: 74 550K starting issue, high RPM issue.
« Reply #17 on: December 17, 2011, 12:20:43 PM »
Would it help to lean the mixture with the pilot screws (tighten/clockwise, correct?) until I get it?

It could.  But, it might also change the throttle response.  The Air screw only controls air to the pilot system, which dominates the mix at idle speeds.
Because there is no accelerator pump in these carbs, opening the throttle causes the slide to open allowing more air to pass and a corresponding pressure change that reduces fuel flow through the fuel jets.  To compensate for this, the idle mixture is purposefully set over rich, so adding that extra air still keeps the mixture in the combustion range.  Make the idle mixture too lean and you can expect the engine to stumble/wheeze on acceleration.
Normally you can snap the throttle at any load from low RPM up to one half of total throttle travel.  Any more and stumble will occur.  If the engine is too rich you can whack the throttle open more, but then the spark plugs are prone to soot up.

Be aware that if you tune the carbs to a dirty air filter, they will have to be re-tuned once a good air filter is installed.

The air screws are turned clockwise to enrich and counter clockwise to lean the pilot mix.  They are designed to have an adjustment range limit.  At adjustment extremes they have diminished to nil effect.

Cheers,
Lloyd... (SOHC4 #11 Original Mail List)
72 500, 74 550, 75 550K, 75 550F, 76 550F, 77 550F X2, 78 550K, 77 750F X2, 78 750F, 79CX500, 85 700SC, GL1100

Those that learn from history are doomed to repeat it by those that don't learn from history.