Author Topic: CB750 Clutch Slipping Need Help  (Read 14392 times)

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Offline chewbacca5000

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CB750 Clutch Slipping Need Help
« on: December 16, 2011, 07:31:36 PM »
The clutch on my 1976 CB750 slips really bad and the RPM shoot right up when I hit the throttle hard at highway cursing speed 70+ MPH. 
I am planning on fixing it tomorrow so if anyone knows what could be causing this it would be greatly appreciated.

Offline Magpie

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Re: CB750 Clutch Slipping Need Help
« Reply #1 on: December 16, 2011, 07:39:47 PM »
What oil are you using? If it says "Energy Conserving" on the bottle, it may cause the clutch to slip. Have you used any oil additives? Or, friction plates in the clutch worn to the backing? Cliff.

Offline chewbacca5000

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Re: CB750 Clutch Slipping Need Help
« Reply #2 on: December 16, 2011, 07:56:11 PM »
No slippery oil.  Not sure what the friction plates look like.  Will find out tomorrow. Can you describe what a good friction plate should look like.

Offline Magpie

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Re: CB750 Clutch Slipping Need Help
« Reply #3 on: December 16, 2011, 08:01:07 PM »
Your manual will tell you minimum thickness of what the friction should be. The picture is of my K0 clutch with plates that are in spec. Hope this helps. Cliff.

Offline HondaMan

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Re: CB750 Clutch Slipping Need Help
« Reply #4 on: December 16, 2011, 08:02:24 PM »
Good friction plates will have a porous look to the cork, without scratches or chunks. The plates should measure no less than 0.138" thick, with 0.141" being normal. There should not be any uneven, shiny marks on the faces of the pressure plates or steel plates.

There are a number of oils and additives that can make the wet clutch slip. One of the biggest ones: STP Oil Treatment. Also, some high-detergent motor oils like the relatively new Castrol "No Sludge Buildup" formulations, among others. Use of a motrcycle oil like the Castrol 4T is best, but there are others: you want a low-detergent oil. The 750 should use 20w40 or 20w50 oils unless it is deep winter cold: then a 10w50 is easier to start. 10w40 oils lead to rapid clutch and cam wear in these engines.

Hint: if you have my book, check the Clutch section in the Inspection or the Reassembly chapter for pictures of good plates and also worn parts.
See SOHC4shop@gmail.com for info about the gadgets I make for these bikes.

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Offline chewbacca5000

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Re: CB750 Clutch Slipping Need Help
« Reply #5 on: December 16, 2011, 08:15:07 PM »
Thanks Magpie and Hondaman,

The pictures help and Hondaman your description of the pressure plates really clears things up.  So if the pressure / friction plates are not porous looking and appear to be shinny or glazed then they will need replacing?

Offline Patrick

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Re: CB750 Clutch Slipping Need Help
« Reply #6 on: December 16, 2011, 08:26:05 PM »
From what I have seen - and I am not the guru that Hondaman is - but that if you are using the right oil, most of the time clutch slip is caused by one of two problems. Either your clutch cable is getting sticky or your clutch springs are losing their tensile strength. Try this: disconnect the clutch cable at the bottom end; move it with the lever or just tug on the wire. Does it move freely? If it is binding at all it can be preventing your clutch from properly engaging. If that is OK, pull your clutch cover and remove the star plate and the springs (you do not have to remove the clutch basket, so no heavy lifting necessary). Measure the length of the springs and compare them to the spec. If they are shorter than spec then they could be worn out. Even if they are not shorter than spec they may have lost their springiness. I always replace the springs before I go messing with clutch plates - especially back when I didn't know what a clutch plate looked like.

If both of those are fine, then look at the friction plates. FWIW, I have never run into a friction plate out of spec. I've replaced many of them, but mainly because they were old and dried out and in danger (or actuality) of disintergrating and messing up my oil pump screen.

But again, Hondaman has seen of lot more friction plates up close and personal than I have.

Good luck. You will fix it. It is not that hard.

Patrick
« Last Edit: December 16, 2011, 08:27:40 PM by Patrick »
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1982 VF750S Sabre
1987 VT1100 Shadow
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Offline chewbacca5000

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Re: CB750 Clutch Slipping Need Help
« Reply #7 on: December 16, 2011, 08:32:03 PM »
Thanks Guys! I will do a followup post tomorrow.  Think I got enough to go on for now.

Offline Big Jay

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Re: CB750 Clutch Slipping Need Help
« Reply #8 on: December 16, 2011, 08:43:39 PM »
http://cbrzone.com/clutches.html

Check out our extra plate clutch. You will not be able to mslip it.

Offline dave500

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Re: CB750 Clutch Slipping Need Help
« Reply #9 on: December 16, 2011, 10:35:52 PM »
umm?how about trying a proper clutch adjustment first,i dont think this has been suggested yet?

Offline chewbacca5000

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Re: CB750 Clutch Slipping Need Help
« Reply #10 on: December 17, 2011, 05:49:46 AM »
Dave,

I would try adjustment, but the engine is already on the workbench.  You see I got stuck in 1st gear over the summer and thought something was wrong with the fork ears.  Little did I know it was just the shifting mechanism that was binding up on me.  I will have payed for a semester of quality education at the school of hard knocks by the time this job is over.  O well I don't care it's my day off and my project for today.  Will let you guys know how I make out.

Much Thanks!

Offline Rigid

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Re: CB750 Clutch Slipping Need Help
« Reply #11 on: December 17, 2011, 08:06:08 AM »
If the clutch is slipping, and the adjustment correct, looking at the plates won't bring them back.  The slipping is all the proof you need to buy new plates.
36 years of this stuff, here to help.

Offline josephus

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Re: CB750 Clutch Slipping Need Help
« Reply #12 on: December 17, 2011, 09:36:13 AM »
mine used to slip when passing and hitting the gas heres how i fixed mine. make some shims to go under the four clutch springs make sure to shim equally. i know the clutch will get stiffer to use but i am sure honda  changed the spring stiffness.and make sure that you do have the right steel plates if it was bought from someone ive found some have a double steel plate riveted together and others that didnt have one just single steel plates. 

Offline Bowswell

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Offline chewbacca5000

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Re: CB750 Clutch Slipping Need Help
« Reply #14 on: December 17, 2011, 04:30:03 PM »
Ok it looks like the slipping problem has been going on for some time before I got the bike as the PO put in what appears to be Heavy Duty Springs.  Honda Springs are a min of 30.5.
1. 35.50 mm
2. 35.19 mm
3. 35.06 mm
35.07 mm

Friction disc are as follows:
1. .135
2. .139
3. .136
4. .138
5. .135
6. .140
7. .124

So I guess it is time to get some new plates. Does anyone know if these will work for my 1976 k engine.

Honda CB750 Clutch Friction Plate SOHC #1 OEM Ref. #22201-300-000
http://www.ebay.com/itm/Honda-CB750-Clutch-Friction-Plate-SOHC-1-OEM-Ref-22201-300-000-/190605515638?pt=Motorcycles_Parts_Accessories&vxp=mtr&hash=item2c60f95b76

Thanks for all the help.

Offline HondaMan

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Re: CB750 Clutch Slipping Need Help
« Reply #15 on: December 18, 2011, 11:32:55 AM »
Ok it looks like the slipping problem has been going on for some time before I got the bike as the PO put in what appears to be Heavy Duty Springs.  Honda Springs are a min of 30.5.
1. 35.50 mm
2. 35.19 mm
3. 35.06 mm
35.07 mm

Friction disc are as follows:
1. .135
2. .139
3. .136
4. .138
5. .135
6. .140
7. .124

So I guess it is time to get some new plates. Does anyone know if these will work for my 1976 k engine.

Honda CB750 Clutch Friction Plate SOHC #1 OEM Ref. #22201-300-000
http://www.ebay.com/itm/Honda-CB750-Clutch-Friction-Plate-SOHC-1-OEM-Ref-22201-300-000-/190605515638?pt=Motorcycles_Parts_Accessories&vxp=mtr&hash=item2c60f95b76

Thanks for all the help.
Yep, those work fine. They are coming via Thailand, have used 2 sets of them so far.

Those springs: it sounds like they are F0/F1 springs. You may wish to switch back to "K" springs for a smoother clutch engagement, lest it be sudden with those new plates.

Don't forget to at least drop those plates in a coffee can (or something) of oil to completely coat them. If you start out dry, they will destruct in just a few miles.
See SOHC4shop@gmail.com for info about the gadgets I make for these bikes.

The demons are repulsed when a man does good. Use that.
Blood is thicker than water, but motor oil is thicker yet...so, don't mess with my SOHC4, or I might have to hurt you.
Hondaman's creed: "Bikers are family. Treat them accordingly."

Link to Hondaman Ignition: http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php?topic=67543.0

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Offline chewbacca5000

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Re: CB750 Clutch Slipping Need Help
« Reply #16 on: December 18, 2011, 12:11:18 PM »
Thanks!  Do you know why I need 1 different friction plate with the swirl pattern on the 76?  Looks the same as other k clutches what is different about the 76 clutch.  Also, the basket had some sludge which is the consistency of heavy grease kinda sticky like glue would that have affected the clutch operation causing slips?  Thanks Again!  Looks like I better treat myself to your book for Christmas.

Offline lucky

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Re: CB750 Clutch Slipping Need Help
« Reply #17 on: December 18, 2011, 12:59:25 PM »
No slippery oil.  Not sure what the friction plates look like.  Will find out tomorrow. Can you describe what a good friction plate should look like.

You must measure the thickness of the friction plates.
Remember tolerance stack up issues. If each friction plate is-.002 and you multiply that times 7 plates then you have a .014 deficiency.
Replace the springs. Put in new friction plates.
If you keep driving it with a slipping clutch the metal plates can get hot,turn blue and get warped. Then you will have to buy new metal plates too.

It also does not hurt to check the thickness of the 30 year old metal plates. Even if they are flat.

Check the metal plates by putting them on a flat surface.  Like a glass plate, or machined surface of a drill press etc.,.

Offline lucky

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Re: CB750 Clutch Slipping Need Help
« Reply #18 on: December 18, 2011, 01:00:57 PM »
umm?how about trying a proper clutch adjustment first,i dont think this has been suggested yet?

You can NOT adjust a clutch.
You can only adjust when the clutch engages.

Offline chewbacca5000

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Re: CB750 Clutch Slipping Need Help
« Reply #19 on: December 18, 2011, 02:07:01 PM »
Thanks Lucky!

I put all the steels on a piece of glass and one or two was a little off, but no where near the service limit of .012" listed in the factory manual.  I will order more and start with the stock springs, and if I am unhappy I will switch to the Heavy Duty springs.  I really want my rear tire to hookup and not slip at cursing speeds.  I see what you are saying with the cumulative deficit of .014. 

From everything I am reading clutches are about having enough material.  People try to compensate for lack of material with Heavy Duty springs or spacers under the stock springs, but their is no substitute for having enough meat on the friction disc.

Thanks!

Offline Patrick

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Re: CB750 Clutch Slipping Need Help
« Reply #20 on: December 18, 2011, 03:02:26 PM »
At what speed do you start cursing? I usually get happier as the velocity increases.....
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1982 VF750S Sabre
1987 VT1100 Shadow
1979 Yamaha XS11
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Offline chewbacca5000

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Re: CB750 Clutch Slipping Need Help
« Reply #21 on: December 18, 2011, 04:23:51 PM »
Yeah don't we all!  To answer your question around 65 or so I notice the slipping.  Worn disk just a matter of getting some new ones then the chore of putting the engine back in.  Thinking of waiting till March or April for that one.  Winter is time for me to fix the 4 broken engines in my basement. 1 down 3 to go!

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Re: CB750 Clutch Slipping Need Help
« Reply #22 on: December 18, 2011, 08:40:15 PM »
Maybe you can not adjust the clutch but an improperly adjusted lifter or cable will cause a good clutch to slip. It happened to me. I posted here and no one asked if I adjusted the clutch lifter. Until I was on a trip, nearly stranded, a little light bulb lit up over my head and I tried it. It's been fine since.
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Re: CB750 Clutch Slipping Need Help
« Reply #23 on: December 18, 2011, 10:08:13 PM »
umm?how about trying a proper clutch adjustment first,i dont think this has been suggested yet?

You can NOT adjust a clutch.
You can only adjust when the clutch engages.

I am absolutely sure that Dave knows that..... ::)
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Re: CB750 Clutch Slipping Need Help
« Reply #24 on: December 18, 2011, 10:25:56 PM »
Thanks!  Do you know why I need 1 different friction plate with the swirl pattern on the 76?  Looks the same as other k clutches what is different about the 76 clutch.  Also, the basket had some sludge which is the consistency of heavy grease kinda sticky like glue would that have affected the clutch operation causing slips?  Thanks Again!  Looks like I better treat myself to your book for Christmas.

Actually, you don't, unless the 2nd metal plate from the back of the stack is one of those double-steel-with-leaf-spring-between plates. This will be an extra thick plate. Some were changed out to be the Gold wing backing plate instead, to reduce clutch rattle: most of the time you are better off with using 7 cork and 6 steel plates instead.

Honda made the top friction plate into the slanted-cork plate for the F0 engines in 1976. Some of the later K6 bikes got these as the earlier clutch parts began running out: i.e., the K6 is sort of a morphed K5-F0 inside. The slanted plate is there to reduce the solid lockup in the lower gears because the F0 and later tranny had a taller 1st gear, so it needed a bit of slip to make Honda's warranty department happier. This top plate wears out QUICK in these later clutches, then causing the others to wear as well. I never reinstall the slanted-cork plates, myself, but rely on the intelligence of the rider to be intelligent about his bike. The 1st and 2nd gear dogs on the F0 and later bikes wear out more quickly than the earlier trannies because of this steep ratio: this is what Honda engineers were trying to work around by slipping the clutch pack a little longer if the clutch was dropped too hard. The down side is that the clutches also wear out sooner on the later bikes. Typically, in the K0-K5 bikes the clutch is good for more than 80k miles unless flogged or improper oils are used: in the later bikes they seldom make it past 25k miles in any case.
See SOHC4shop@gmail.com for info about the gadgets I make for these bikes.

The demons are repulsed when a man does good. Use that.
Blood is thicker than water, but motor oil is thicker yet...so, don't mess with my SOHC4, or I might have to hurt you.
Hondaman's creed: "Bikers are family. Treat them accordingly."

Link to Hondaman Ignition: http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php?topic=67543.0

Link to My CB750 Book: https://www.lulu.com/search?adult_audience_rating=00&page=1&pageSize=10&q=my+cb750+book

Link to website: www.SOHC4shop.com

Offline chewbacca5000

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Re: CB750 Clutch Slipping Need Help
« Reply #25 on: December 19, 2011, 05:45:11 AM »
Thanks Hondaman!  So for an engine I am going to flog a 72 would be better than a 76?  I am getting the feeling that the older engine were just plain better all around is there any truth to that?


If so I will keep the 76 with 3,300 miles and put in back in it's frame.  The PO left it out in the rain with the plugs out so I had to take the top end off, but everything inside other than the cylinders is mint.

Offline josephus

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Re: CB750 Clutch Slipping Need Help
« Reply #26 on: December 19, 2011, 08:22:41 AM »
I didnt compensate for the clutches i compensate for the weak springs. if its a strong bike it can slip the clutch plates. and honda did change the stiffness of the springs due to complaints. and no matter what is done if the clutch hubs and discs are mix matched say a 1971 k hub with 1978f frictions and discs its gonna slip. as for me i saved myself from buying another set of discs. it goes when i want it to and not slip

Offline HondaMan

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Re: CB750 Clutch Slipping Need Help
« Reply #27 on: December 20, 2011, 11:16:29 AM »
Thanks Hondaman!  So for an engine I am going to flog a 72 would be better than a 76?  I am getting the feeling that the older engine were just plain better all around is there any truth to that?


If so I will keep the 76 with 3,300 miles and put in back in it's frame.  The PO left it out in the rain with the plugs out so I had to take the top end off, but everything inside other than the cylinders is mint.

Well, the older engines last longer, for the most part. They also take abuse better. Up to the K2, they made almost the same HP stock that the 76-77F0/F1 made at the rear wheel, too, because the losses in the later bikes are higher. The tranny in the older bikes is a wide-ratio gearbox, which has lower stress internally when you're romping on it, so it tends to last longer. The oil flow through the older engines is more uniform (after the K0), being more heavily toward the bottom end in the K6 and later bikes.

These "little" things can be adjusted, though, depending on what you're doing with the build.

For example, the F engines (and K7/8) made from 1976 to 1978 have stronger rods and rod bolts than the earlier engines. The later engines were engineered to produce peak HP about 1000 RPM higher than the early design, so the oil flow to the crankshaft was increased by restricting the top end flow. This cost the top end quite a bit of life (especially the valve guides and rocker shafts) and increased the heat in the head area.

The K0-K1 engines were made to produce more HP at 7500 RPM than the K2-K5 engines, but the K2-K5 engine make more torque where you ride the most often (3500-6500 RPM), making them feel more lively on a day-to-day basis, or when touring at 55 MPH (which was the Democrat's solution to the oil supply problems in the early 1970s). All of the K0-K5 engines make more torque in the midrange than the post-1976 engines, because the cam was retarded 5 degrees during the 1976 models, for emissions reasons. But again, all of this stuff can be adjusted to suit your riding style, if you're building.

My personal ride is set for peak HP at 8000 RPM, but peak torque comes at 4400 RPM. This took a combination of LESS than stock cam lift (0.020" less, or 0.5mm less), with 2-3 degrees more duration on the cam, and the cam is advanced 2 degrees from the stock (5 degree) setting, to open at 6 degrees BTDC and close at almost the same time as in the K0 engine. To this I added a hemi head, polished valves, pocket porting over the inlet valves, stronger spark advance springs for a later full advance, leaner mainjets (5% leaner than stock), deeper float bowls (25mm instead of 26mm), K&N air filter with stock K2-size airbox openings, HM341 pipes, 17T countersprocket with a 1-row output shaft bearing, free-spinning rocker shafts, and 0.25mm oversize pistons (which are about to become 0.5mm oversize, as they have 90,000+ miles on them now) with 1-piece oil rings. I run the rod bearings at 0.0015"-0.0018" clearance, the crank at 0.0012", and stock oil pressures with 20w50 weight oils (sometimes 15w50 for colder weather). I also run 110/90 rear tire size, and only Honda rear sprocket, with Diamond XDL (also called Powersport) chain. This makes for a very lively ride that doesn't care what altitude, fuel grade, or hiway speed I ride: it is always happy and snappy.

Now you know my secrets! :D
See SOHC4shop@gmail.com for info about the gadgets I make for these bikes.

The demons are repulsed when a man does good. Use that.
Blood is thicker than water, but motor oil is thicker yet...so, don't mess with my SOHC4, or I might have to hurt you.
Hondaman's creed: "Bikers are family. Treat them accordingly."

Link to Hondaman Ignition: http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php?topic=67543.0

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Link to website: www.SOHC4shop.com

Offline Patrick

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Re: CB750 Clutch Slipping Need Help
« Reply #28 on: December 20, 2011, 03:21:26 PM »
Information like this can be at your fingertips if you buy Hondaman's book. And it makes a great Xmas gift.....
1970 CB750 K0
1982 VF750S Sabre
1987 VT1100 Shadow
1979 Yamaha XS11
1969 Yamaha DT1B
etc.

Offline chewbacca5000

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Re: CB750 Clutch Slipping Need Help
« Reply #29 on: December 20, 2011, 05:33:12 PM »
Thanks Josephus I'll keep the shims in mind if this bike I got proves to slip the clutch after new plates I shims are worth a try.  Not sure how I can tell the difference in clutch parts.  Everything I look at seems to be stamped HM300.

Hondaman,

As always thanks for all the excellent information.  After your last post I had to go to http://www.lulu.com/holiday_coupons/?cid=121311_en_email_12DAYS and score myself a copy of your book at a sweet discount. Can't wait to get it!  Figure I will have to rebuild my own "top end" before I am able to comprehend even a fraction of what is going to be in this book. Thanks for freely sharing your knowledge with all of us.


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Re: CB750 Clutch Slipping Need Help
« Reply #30 on: December 21, 2011, 06:14:29 PM »
I think around 75 or 76 they started with a spacer friction plate. the shims under the springs only make the clutch grip tighter.

Offline Stev-o

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Re: CB750 Clutch Slipping Need Help
« Reply #31 on: March 14, 2015, 08:03:13 AM »
Ran across this thread when searching clutch slipping.

Chewy - you service it yet?! It's only been 3 years!


I'm facing this on my RD350, have already changed oil and clutch cable.  New discs and springs ordered.
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Offline HondaMan

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Re: CB750 Clutch Slipping Need Help
« Reply #32 on: March 15, 2015, 08:43:03 PM »
Ran across this thread when searching clutch slipping.

Chewy - you service it yet?! It's only been 3 years!


I'm facing this on my RD350, have already changed oil and clutch cable.  New discs and springs ordered.

That's cuz it's an RD350: I don't think they had enough clutch for that hotrod stroker! Smokin' quick bikes!
See SOHC4shop@gmail.com for info about the gadgets I make for these bikes.

The demons are repulsed when a man does good. Use that.
Blood is thicker than water, but motor oil is thicker yet...so, don't mess with my SOHC4, or I might have to hurt you.
Hondaman's creed: "Bikers are family. Treat them accordingly."

Link to Hondaman Ignition: http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php?topic=67543.0

Link to My CB750 Book: https://www.lulu.com/search?adult_audience_rating=00&page=1&pageSize=10&q=my+cb750+book

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