Author Topic: '74 CB750 build  (Read 3227 times)

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Offline pietenpol

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'74 CB750 build
« on: February 22, 2009, 08:45:54 PM »
Well I think I finally pulled the trigger. I've been wanting to build a cafe for awhile now, but have been avoiding it to conserve my wallet.

Anyways a couple months ago I picked up two '74 750's and neither ran. Both have above 40,000 miles and only one had a title. It only took a couple hours and I had the titled bike running, wasn't tuned the greatest but she did run. In fact I put 150 miles on it when we had a warm spell...40-50F. Up until today it started on the first kick!

The bike does have some problems. The transmission kicks out, may have a blown head gasket, and every seal leaks...not that I'm against oil, just don't want it all over me all the time!

This afternoon I decided to strip the bike to the frame and build the cafe I want, minus an 836cc kit. Here are some shots from this afternoon. Hopefully I can keep the pace up and be riding before long. I'm not exactly sure what I want on the bike but I think it will come as I go.

I still need to pull the front end off and take some of the other mounts off of the frame. Then start prepping the frame, buy a tank and other goodies, and then tear into the engine, etc.

Piet

« Last Edit: March 01, 2009, 02:11:10 PM by pietenpol »
If you're not scared enough to wear a helmet, you're not riding hard enough.

Offline rachet

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Re: '74 CB750 build
« Reply #1 on: February 22, 2009, 09:13:38 PM »
You've got a lot of work ahead of you, but you're off to a great start!  That is one Dirty Bike though! and the Motor looks like a hit and run victim!!! Blood (oil) everywhere!

Good luck!

Rachet~
But I need Tacos!  I need them or I will explode!

Offline pietenpol

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Re: ***question updates 2/27*** '74 CB750 build
« Reply #2 on: February 27, 2009, 05:52:22 PM »
Well I had a short spell to work on the bike after buying a compression tester. I did a compression check on the cold engine and came up with these numbers. The numbers seem a little sketchy to me, what do you think?
Dry:       Wet(oil):
1. 90      135
2. 105    120
3. 130    130
4. 140    150

These tests were done without adjusting the valves. Which I think needs to be done but I need to buy the feelers, which I though I had. Hopefully that will improve the tests. I thought it was best to wait until I run those tests to pull the engine completely apart. Could the difference in numbers be from a bad head gasket?

Also take a look at the pictures of the top end. On the left the rocker arm pivots have drilled holes to allow oil in. However on the right the holes do not exist. Is this because of a swap from the PO? Should I be worried about this?

I was also wondering if there is anyway to pull the transmission without removing the top end? If my piston and rings are good I think it would save me time.

Any other advice would be great as I've never done this before!

Piet
If you're not scared enough to wear a helmet, you're not riding hard enough.

Offline fastbroshi

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Re: ***question updates 2/27*** '74 CB750 build
« Reply #3 on: February 28, 2009, 06:33:57 AM »
   I don't have a 750, so I can't comment on most of your questions.  But I do know the engine's cases will have to be split to work on the transmission.  So yes, the top end will have to come off.  Cassette type transmissions weren't common like they are now. 
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Offline HondaMan

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Re: ***question updates 2/27*** '74 CB750 build
« Reply #4 on: February 28, 2009, 09:03:38 AM »
Well I had a short spell to work on the bike after buying a compression tester. I did a compression check on the cold engine and came up with these numbers. The numbers seem a little sketchy to me, what do you think?
Dry:       Wet(oil):
1. 90      135
2. 105    120
3. 130    130
4. 140    150

These tests were done without adjusting the valves. Which I think needs to be done but I need to buy the feelers, which I though I had. Hopefully that will improve the tests. I thought it was best to wait until I run those tests to pull the engine completely apart. Could the difference in numbers be from a bad head gasket?

Also take a look at the pictures of the top end. On the left the rocker arm pivots have drilled holes to allow oil in. However on the right the holes do not exist. Is this because of a swap from the PO? Should I be worried about this?

I was also wondering if there is anyway to pull the transmission without removing the top end? If my piston and rings are good I think it would save me time.

Any other advice would be great as I've never done this before!

Piet


For starters, there's nothing wrong with those compression numbers. The initial low numbers are just from dry bores, the oiled ones show nice results.

The rocker towers (also called cam bearings): the left one with the holes you refer to are stock style on K3 and later engines. The rocker shafts (stock ones, anyway) had threaded holes in them that line up with those holes and 4 litle 5mm bolts go into the shafts to stop them from rattling. Sadly, this also made them wear very quickly, and it cost almost a whole HP in lost torque. It was a quieting move on Honda's part, as the top ends of these bikes were rather noisy when the bike had a Vetter or Bates fairing installed: in the 1970s this composed more than half the 750s leaving the showroom floor for touring (it was the BIG touring bike in the 1970s).

The right cam tower is the K2-and-earlier style. It produces more torque, and the shaft inside lasts longer because it can spin a little with the rockers and distribute oil inside. A simple example: the typical K3-and-later rocker shafts and rockers last about 25000 miles before the shaft and rocker wears and introduces .003" extra clearance. My K2 has 130,000 miles on it and original shafts and cam towers, still has only .0018" clearance. Stock clearance was .0006" to .001" new.

My upcoming book, in the "performance" chapter, devotes a whole section to these rocker towers, shafts, and rockers, and what to do with them....

The shafts are best replaced with K1-K2 style shafts, if yours are worn. The little bolts (which are already missing in your engine) that lock the shafts belong anywhere else but in the engine. It was not a good long-term design change on Honda's part, although it did let them make looser tolerances on these parts and not suffer noisy top ends, so it was cheaper to build. It seriously shortened engine life, though, and lost significant power.

You can also make your own shafts with Thomson 12mm hardened shafting if you grind a V-groove in the center so the long middle bolt can get past the shaft while holding it in place. Honda's replacement parts are either the 2-bolt lock-down design of the K3-later, or the side-groove replacement versions for the K0-K2, neither of which rotate. The K0-K2 version can wiggle back & forth a little, which is better than the later version, but still cannot spin fully, so it won't last as long nor lube as well. It's a better part than the later one, though. See below for a mod that would make this part better...

Yo can also cut a small oiling groove around the whole shaft at each oiling hole in the rockers, which will let oil reach the tight zone on the bottom (loaded) side of the rocker: this will bring you some free HP. This groove only needs to be about .007-.010" deep, like a deep scratch, to make it work right.  ;)
See SOHC4shop@gmail.com for info about the gadgets I make for these bikes.

The demons are repulsed when a man does good. Use that.
Blood is thicker than water, but motor oil is thicker yet...so, don't mess with my SOHC4, or I might have to hurt you.
Hondaman's creed: "Bikers are family. Treat them accordingly."

Link to Hondaman Ignition: http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php?topic=67543.0

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Offline 754

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Re: ***question updates 2/27*** '74 CB750 build
« Reply #5 on: February 28, 2009, 09:33:26 AM »
No need to remove topend to work on transmission..
Maker of the WELDLESS 750 Frame Kit
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My next bike will be a ..ANFOB.....

It's All part of the ADVENTURE...

73 836cc.. Green, had it for 3 decades!!
Lost quite a few CB 750's along the way

Offline pietenpol

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'74 CB750 build
« Reply #6 on: March 01, 2009, 02:09:55 PM »
Wow, thanks for the info Hondaman. Once again it's way more than I would have even thought of. I'm assuming you've already added me on the waiting list for when this book comes out, right? Sounds like I should at least get matching parts in the engine. Once I buy some tools I should be able to start measuring my tolerances, and go from there.

Well I had a fun time with the bike yesterday. Not.

I managed to chalk another one up for the young and ignorant. As I went to split the cases I forgot to remove one bolt. Well much force later the bolt still remained and I had broken the bottom case. S***. So now I am looking for a bottom end case for a K2 750 engine. If anyone happens to have one please let know.

The internals of the engine look good to me, not that I know what they should look like. I still haven't identified what was causing my transmission problems. I can't really see anything wrong.

Also I had a nasty surprise when I removed the oil pan cover, take a look at the pics. The screen had crud 5mm deep covering the whole thing!!! Did this starve the engine of too much oil??? Should the oil pump still be good?

As soon as I start making phone calls as to who has a media blaster in the area I think I will blast the cases with walnut shells. I'm planning on stripping the case and completely gutting them and then taping the openings. Is this an ok way to go about it? Or should I button the engine up and then blast it?

So far I've made three major mistakes.
1. Not pressure washing the bike before I started taking it apart. I had been riding it like a dirt bike and our clay soils hardened like a rock to everything. Of course pushing snow in the field with the front of the frame is always fun.
2. I broke the bottom case.
3. I stayed out way to long Sat. night and had too many beers(contrary to many beliefs). That of course led to me sleeping for half of today and I wasn't able to work on the bike as long.

Thanks for the help everyone!

Piet

If you're not scared enough to wear a helmet, you're not riding hard enough.

Offline HondaMan

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Re: '74 CB750 build
« Reply #7 on: March 01, 2009, 05:45:22 PM »
Wow, that oil pump is knarly!  :P

You might want to check the bearing clearances in the crankshaft and rods, make sure they didn't get oil-starved. They should plastigage at less than .0022" (Honda says .0032", but oil pressure gets real low at that clearance).

Can you show a picture of the broken case? Often they can be heliarced back together, if there's a rel good welder nearby. You have to bolt the empty cases together without sealant, then start the weld, then diassemble to finish the weld, and have the cases face-ground or flycut by a machine shop afterward. I have a set that someone threw a chain through, and the repair actually holds oil just fine (!). I would not have believed it...

It will be real hard to find just a bottom case that won't bleed oil when mismatched to the upper one. The cases are matched, and after years of being married, have warped themselves a little, together. It would be better to get new uppers and lowers together. At bike titling time for the next owner, this may become an issue over the serial number, if your state is like Colorado, where you'll have to at least retain the old upper case for the next guy, or get special titling arrangements.
See SOHC4shop@gmail.com for info about the gadgets I make for these bikes.

The demons are repulsed when a man does good. Use that.
Blood is thicker than water, but motor oil is thicker yet...so, don't mess with my SOHC4, or I might have to hurt you.
Hondaman's creed: "Bikers are family. Treat them accordingly."

Link to Hondaman Ignition: http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php?topic=67543.0

Link to My CB750 Book: https://www.lulu.com/search?adult_audience_rating=00&page=1&pageSize=10&q=my+cb750+book

Link to website: www.SOHC4shop.com

Offline pietenpol

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Re: '74 CB750 build
« Reply #8 on: March 01, 2009, 06:32:43 PM »
The first two pictures are of the broken case. The second picture has the broken piece still bolted onto the upper case. Kinda hard to see because of the contrast in the pictures. If heliarced welding is the same as TIG welding I have a buddy who used to be good, however he hasn't done it for a year or more. Sounds like getting the machine shop involved could get expensive.

I don't think titling would be a problem as Indiana doesn't check the engine numbers. At least I don't think so. And the bike still isn't transferred in my name yet either.

If I did buy new cases would I need new bearings for everything that mated to the case? If it's been starved of oil I may have to replace those bearings anyways. I should be able to check everything on Mon when I go to the shop though.

Thanks
If you're not scared enough to wear a helmet, you're not riding hard enough.

Offline andy750

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Re: '74 CB750 build
« Reply #9 on: March 01, 2009, 07:47:16 PM »
May be cheaper to source a replacement engine.

good luck with it.
cheers
Andy
Current bikes
1. CB750K4: Long distance bike, 17 countries and counting...2001 - Trans-USA-Mexico, 2003 - European Tour, 2004 - SOHC Easy Rider Trip , 2008 - Adirondack Tour 2-up , 2013 - Tail of the Dragon Tour , 2017: 836 kit install and bottom end rebuild. And rebirth: http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php/topic,173213.msg2029836.html#msg2029836
2. CB750/810cc K2  - road racer with JMR worked head 71 hp
3. Yamaha Tenere T700 2022

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Offline HondaMan

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Re: '74 CB750 build
« Reply #10 on: March 02, 2009, 05:28:30 AM »
May be cheaper to source a replacement engine.

good luck with it.
cheers
Andy

Andy could be right: Gammaflat got me a whole 'nuther engine out of Chicago Craigslist for $100. It's a late K1, just like my engine, so I covet the parts. The cases are heavily pitted, though. I'll be gutting it in a couple of months for the innards for my engine, then will have extra leftover cases. I've seen those cases going for $9.99 on eBay, although shipping would be high.
See SOHC4shop@gmail.com for info about the gadgets I make for these bikes.

The demons are repulsed when a man does good. Use that.
Blood is thicker than water, but motor oil is thicker yet...so, don't mess with my SOHC4, or I might have to hurt you.
Hondaman's creed: "Bikers are family. Treat them accordingly."

Link to Hondaman Ignition: http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php?topic=67543.0

Link to My CB750 Book: https://www.lulu.com/search?adult_audience_rating=00&page=1&pageSize=10&q=my+cb750+book

Link to website: www.SOHC4shop.com

Offline pietenpol

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Re: '74 CB750 build
« Reply #11 on: March 06, 2009, 06:44:01 PM »
Well I was able to get another engine today but not all was well. The engine was for my tranny problems and also came with the cases. After getting home I split the cases and then noticed the drive chain had been thrown through the cases and they were patched. So it looks like I need to find another engine/parts and hopefully make some head way.

I am starting to regret beginning this project as I just accepted a job, which is good but I'll be working close to 40 hours week/weekends and going to school full time. But I've already ordered parts and have some money invested. So I'll trudge on.

I have one rod bearing that doesn't look good though. Is there any place were I am able to get just one bearing?
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Offline HondaMan

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Re: '74 CB750 build
« Reply #12 on: March 07, 2009, 07:46:01 AM »
Well I was able to get another engine today but not all was well. The engine was for my tranny problems and also came with the cases. After getting home I split the cases and then noticed the drive chain had been thrown through the cases and they were patched. So it looks like I need to find another engine/parts and hopefully make some head way.

I am starting to regret beginning this project as I just accepted a job, which is good but I'll be working close to 40 hours week/weekends and going to school full time. But I've already ordered parts and have some money invested. So I'll trudge on.

I have one rod bearing that doesn't look good though. Is there any place were I am able to get just one bearing?

The bearings are available from Honda. Try to find the color, painted on the edges of the bearing shells, so you can get the same ones.

But....with a bearing that bad, look REAL closely at the crankshaft's rod journal. If it is also scratched up, the crankshaft is toast. Honda does not (nor anyone else, to my knowledge) make undersized bearing shells that would allow turning down the journal and rehardening, like on a car's engine. It looks like that engine was thoroughly flogged.

Can you still use your original crank and rods?
See SOHC4shop@gmail.com for info about the gadgets I make for these bikes.

The demons are repulsed when a man does good. Use that.
Blood is thicker than water, but motor oil is thicker yet...so, don't mess with my SOHC4, or I might have to hurt you.
Hondaman's creed: "Bikers are family. Treat them accordingly."

Link to Hondaman Ignition: http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php?topic=67543.0

Link to My CB750 Book: https://www.lulu.com/search?adult_audience_rating=00&page=1&pageSize=10&q=my+cb750+book

Link to website: www.SOHC4shop.com