Author Topic: Engine Missing While at Cruising Speed (1981 Honda CB650C)  (Read 37386 times)

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Online grcamna2

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Re: Engine Missing While at Cruising Speed (1981 Honda CB650C)
« Reply #50 on: January 08, 2012, 08:26:59 PM »
Fuel line plugged or routed incorecctly? Have you had the petcock off the tank?

The fuel line is new and clear. The petcock is new. What do mean routed incorrectly?

+1      ........also check fuel cap venting.... clear tube test of carb bowl fuel levels....., open drain test of fuel flow thru the carbs.

+1 on checking for if it has unhindered fuel flow...try removing the fuel line and see how fast it flows out into a container with the fuel petcock in the "on" & might as well try it in the  "reserve"position also; how is your in-tank fuel screen..? clean & unobstructed ? Try the above test with the fuel cap installed as normal to test if the vent in it is clear.
75' CB400F/'bunch o' parts' & 81' CB125S modded to a 'CB200S'
  I love the small ones too !
Do your BEST...nobody can take that away from you.

Offline Spanner 1

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Re: Engine Missing While at Cruising Speed (1981 Honda CB650C)
« Reply #51 on: January 08, 2012, 08:39:08 PM »
Gamma, I would totally do that test too, but it's not reliable as a tank vacuum can need time to form ( like more than 10-30 mins. ) to 'over-ride' gravity flow from tank to carb bowls, ya know ?
So I suppose it's 'crack open gas cap' and ride and report ! ( and see 'stock' fuel ilne routing ).
Oops... that's 'Grcamna ".
« Last Edit: January 08, 2012, 08:43:03 PM by Spanner 1 »
If your sure it's a carb problem; it's ignition,
If your sure it's an ignition problem; it's carbs....

Online grcamna2

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Re: Engine Missing While at Cruising Speed (1981 Honda CB650C)
« Reply #52 on: January 08, 2012, 09:11:13 PM »
+1, I fully agree with you on those tests Spanner 1.
75' CB400F/'bunch o' parts' & 81' CB125S modded to a 'CB200S'
  I love the small ones too !
Do your BEST...nobody can take that away from you.

Offline F16Viper68

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Re: Engine Missing While at Cruising Speed (1981 Honda CB650C)
« Reply #53 on: January 15, 2012, 06:28:51 PM »
I'm going to go with lean.   




Offline Hush

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Re: Engine Missing While at Cruising Speed (1981 Honda CB650C)
« Reply #54 on: January 15, 2012, 06:59:47 PM »
Oh yeah she's running lean and hot by the look of those suckers. ???
Spanner, if you did the test flow and as it was flowing you put say your hand over the tank filler to block it would that prove that this can happen, I mean like flow should stop and then we can say he has a tank vent problem rather than a kinked hose.
I never had any problems with either of my 650's as the fuel line is quite short unless it has been replaced.
I think the thing I most like about motorcycling is the speed at which my brain must process information at to avoid the numb skulls who are eating pies, playing the ukulele, applying make-up etc in the comfort of their airconditioned armchairs as they make random attempts to kill me!!!!!!!

Offline F16Viper68

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Re: Engine Missing While at Cruising Speed (1981 Honda CB650C)
« Reply #55 on: January 15, 2012, 07:02:40 PM »
One thing I noticed is the new plugs I put in are the "cold" weather plugs.  I've ordered the normal temp plugs.  The fuel line has been replaced but it's about as short as it can be.  I've removed the vacuum petcock so it's a direct shot to the carbs. 

Dave...

Online grcamna2

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Re: Engine Missing While at Cruising Speed (1981 Honda CB650C)
« Reply #56 on: January 15, 2012, 10:04:22 PM »
Dave, I see on the side of one plug D7EA, those are the hotter plugs and they don't look too far off for a hot plug running just a bit lean.
When you have the "missing" at the rpm you say...what happens if you let off of the throttle? you know..just roll off a little, will it stop missing ? What gear are you in? and what happens if you give it more gas ? Please exactly describe what it does while underway and how cold the air temps are..and what setting your choke is on,etc. Give us more information please.
This sure is hard to do with out the bike right in front of us :P...isn't it ??
75' CB400F/'bunch o' parts' & 81' CB125S modded to a 'CB200S'
  I love the small ones too !
Do your BEST...nobody can take that away from you.

Online grcamna2

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Re: Engine Missing While at Cruising Speed (1981 Honda CB650C)
« Reply #57 on: January 16, 2012, 07:00:01 AM »
Dave,
    I have to ask you now and I had forgotten til now...after all these posts ??? :).In you're first post you said you installed a new air filter....please tell me what manufacturer of filter..what brand is it ??
75' CB400F/'bunch o' parts' & 81' CB125S modded to a 'CB200S'
  I love the small ones too !
Do your BEST...nobody can take that away from you.

Offline F16Viper68

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Re: Engine Missing While at Cruising Speed (1981 Honda CB650C)
« Reply #58 on: January 18, 2012, 07:30:02 PM »
Dave, I see on the side of one plug D7EA, those are the hotter plugs and they don't look too far off for a hot plug running just a bit lean.
When you have the "missing" at the rpm you say...what happens if you let off of the throttle? you know..just roll off a little, will it stop missing ? What gear are you in? and what happens if you give it more gas ? Please exactly describe what it does while underway and how cold the air temps are..and what setting your choke is on,etc. Give us more information please.
This sure is hard to do with out the bike right in front of us :P...isn't it ??

The most noticeable miss is when I'm cruising in 2nd or 3rd gear at about 2.5rpm (steady).  When I let off it's normal fine.  Sometimes at a higher RPM is will backfire a bit.  Choke is off. 

Sitting in the driveway I could rev the motor all the way to redline (not recommended I know) but under load 2nd, 3rd, or 4th gear I couldn't get it much past 5k RPM. 

There's no OEM vent tube on this tank so if it's a venting issue...

The bike is in pieces again so I can't reproduce anything right now.  The carb rack is off and I'm awaiting the t-fittings I ordered that go between carbs 1/2 and 3/4.  I've heard conflicting reports of how not having these installed can affect the operation of the engine. I've decided to address this or I'll always be wondering out. 

Like anyone who remember high school math, solving any equation with more than one variable is a #$%*.   ;D   

Once I get them re-installed I'll re-sync the carbs and try to adjust the air mixture.  I did confirm the mixture screws are set to 2.5 turns out.  Which is the recommended setting post rebuild.

Dave...

Offline w1sa

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Re: Engine Missing While at Cruising Speed (1981 Honda CB650C)
« Reply #59 on: January 18, 2012, 08:53:24 PM »
I still think it's likely to be as was suggested before.....low sustained fuel level in the carb bowls.........caused by marginal fuel delivery. Thats why you need to flow test (vol/time)from the closed tank thru the petcock into a container (record the flow rate), and also volume delivery thru the fuel manifold and out each bowl drain. Use the clear tube method to identify stabilised fuel level in bowls before and after flow test thru the bowl drains.

These cv carbs don't behave the same as carbs with needles directly connected to the throttle grip....so it can also be easier (imo) to get too lean at lower throttle settings, if the fuel passageways to or in the carb body are blocked or restricted....the carbs cannot easily get thru the transition from the low speed circuit to the main fuel circuit of the carbs, needed for midrange to full throttle. The carb piston only lifts the main needle (for more fuel) as a result of intake vacuum created by increased engine speed....that engine speed can only be reached (under load) where the low speed circuit is providing enough fuel for the engine to transition..............................the other thing I'm thinking is that nothing will happen above low throttle setting, if the pistons are not responding to appropriate intake vacuums......pistons should move free and smooth....they should also respond/actuate smooth and evenly when you introduce airflow to the air metering inlets in the carb intake mouth... (bench test)

So while you've got the carbs off, I would test all these things (full carb clean, tank vacuum check, fuel flow/levels, and main needle/piston operation) before you re-install.

Online grcamna2

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Re: Engine Missing While at Cruising Speed (1981 Honda CB650C)
« Reply #60 on: January 20, 2012, 03:43:13 PM »
Dave,
   Are you running the original Honda air filter? or another paper one ? or what ?
75' CB400F/'bunch o' parts' & 81' CB125S modded to a 'CB200S'
  I love the small ones too !
Do your BEST...nobody can take that away from you.

72500john

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Re: Engine Missing While at Cruising Speed (1981 Honda CB650C)
« Reply #61 on: January 20, 2012, 04:40:35 PM »
if your needle vales are like mine you need to set you float height with the float just touching the needle valve,not depressing it. go to you ams shop and get a chunk of .060 aluminum and make a float height guage like i did. invaluble tool!

Online grcamna2

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Re: Engine Missing While at Cruising Speed (1981 Honda CB650C)
« Reply #62 on: January 20, 2012, 05:51:21 PM »
I still think it's likely to be as was suggested before.....low sustained fuel level in the carb bowls.........caused by marginal fuel delivery. Thats why you need to flow test (vol/time)from the closed tank thru the petcock into a container (record the flow rate), and also volume delivery thru the fuel manifold and out each bowl drain. Use the clear tube method to identify stabilised fuel level in bowls before and after flow test thru the bowl drains.

These cv carbs don't behave the same as carbs with needles directly connected to the throttle grip....so it can also be easier (imo) to get too lean at lower throttle settings, if the fuel passageways to or in the carb body are blocked or restricted....the carbs cannot easily get thru the transition from the low speed circuit to the main fuel circuit of the carbs, needed for midrange to full throttle. The carb piston only lifts the main needle (for more fuel) as a result of intake vacuum created by increased engine speed....that engine speed can only be reached (under load) where the low speed circuit is providing enough fuel for the engine to transition..............................the other thing I'm thinking is that nothing will happen above low throttle setting, if the pistons are not responding to appropriate intake vacuums......pistons should move free and smooth....they should also respond/actuate smooth and evenly when you introduce airflow to the air metering inlets in the carb intake mouth... (bench test)

So while you've got the carbs off, I would test all these things (full carb clean, tank vacuum check, fuel flow/levels, and main needle/piston operation) before you re-install.
++1  ;) on what w1sa said.
75' CB400F/'bunch o' parts' & 81' CB125S modded to a 'CB200S'
  I love the small ones too !
Do your BEST...nobody can take that away from you.

72500john

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Re: Engine Missing While at Cruising Speed (1981 Honda CB650C)
« Reply #63 on: January 20, 2012, 06:05:37 PM »
thought i answered to to this post but guees it did not take. recheck your float levels get the guys in your ams shop to hack you out a .060 piece of aluminum for a float height gauge. dont know if you carbs are like mine but mine have a plunger on the neddle valve and the float height is set with the floats just touching them.not depressing them. good luck!!! check your repair manual for particulars.

Offline fmctm1sw

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Re: Engine Missing While at Cruising Speed (1981 Honda CB650C)
« Reply #64 on: January 20, 2012, 06:31:40 PM »
I don't think you can adjust the float level on these carbs.  I remember not being able to do anything with mine when they were apart.  I found a photo I took as well.  It's just a plastic mounting on the float that fits into the float needle.  Unless I missed something...  F16, if mine gets running (properly) before yours I'd be willing to compare notes on stuff the other guys mentioned.  Flow rates, etc...
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Offline Hush

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Re: Engine Missing While at Cruising Speed (1981 Honda CB650C)
« Reply #65 on: January 21, 2012, 11:47:34 AM »
I do remember causing a similar problem when I replaced a fuel hose, some of the excess rubber got into the fuel line and blocked the flow, didn't matter what I did to the carbs the flow was restricted until I stumbled onto my own problem.

   NO FLOW ...NO GO!!!! ;)
I think the thing I most like about motorcycling is the speed at which my brain must process information at to avoid the numb skulls who are eating pies, playing the ukulele, applying make-up etc in the comfort of their airconditioned armchairs as they make random attempts to kill me!!!!!!!

Offline F16Viper68

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Re: Engine Missing While at Cruising Speed (1981 Honda CB650C)
« Reply #66 on: January 21, 2012, 04:14:27 PM »
OK I have had this problem before on my 79 CB650Z, the auto advancer had rusted stuck closed and even at max revs the bike wouldn't accelerate it was like governed. Remove the electronic pick-ups on the right side of the motor and behind there you will find the mainly forgotten and negelcted auto advancer mechanism. Take it apart and clean/de rust it then lightly oil the small axles that the weights swing on.
I found I could actually get my old girl to wheel stand once I fixed this up.
If it's not this then I'm out of ideas. :)

I have the carbs in pieces...again.  All jets are clear, the floats are within spec, the gas flows out of tanks with a gusto (cap on), and I installed the new t-fittings.  I'll reassemble the carb rack later tonight. 

A while back I did lube the advancer with WD-40 but I'm leaning this way.  I didn't take it apart and lube it but post lube it did move freely. 

Dave...

Offline F16Viper68

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Re: Engine Missing While at Cruising Speed (1981 Honda CB650C)
« Reply #67 on: January 21, 2012, 04:17:26 PM »
Dave,
    I have to ask you now and I had forgotten til now...after all these posts ??? :).In you're first post you said you installed a new air filter....please tell me what manufacturer of filter..what brand is it ??

I think it was a Fram filter.

Dave...

Offline F16Viper68

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Re: Engine Missing While at Cruising Speed (1981 Honda CB650C)
« Reply #68 on: January 21, 2012, 04:19:33 PM »
It's flowing just fine.  One thing I'm certain, this is not a gas flow issue. 

Dave...

Online grcamna2

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Re: Engine Missing While at Cruising Speed (1981 Honda CB650C)
« Reply #69 on: January 21, 2012, 04:28:24 PM »
I'm going to go with lean.   


+1 on it looking lean...somehow :);you'll find out why as you "sort it out".
75' CB400F/'bunch o' parts' & 81' CB125S modded to a 'CB200S'
  I love the small ones too !
Do your BEST...nobody can take that away from you.

Offline F16Viper68

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Re: Engine Missing While at Cruising Speed (1981 Honda CB650C)
« Reply #70 on: January 21, 2012, 04:39:41 PM »
I'm going to go with lean.   


+1 on it looking lean...somehow :);you'll find out why as you "sort it out".

Ok, yeah it's probably running lean due to lack of gas.   ;D  I mean the flow from the gas tank and through the float bowls. 

Dave...

Online grcamna2

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Re: Engine Missing While at Cruising Speed (1981 Honda CB650C)
« Reply #71 on: January 21, 2012, 05:35:05 PM »
As I said...you'll sort it out ;)...the process of elimination will yield it's result...it must be frustrating.
75' CB400F/'bunch o' parts' & 81' CB125S modded to a 'CB200S'
  I love the small ones too !
Do your BEST...nobody can take that away from you.

Offline Hush

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Re: Engine Missing While at Cruising Speed (1981 Honda CB650C)
« Reply #72 on: January 22, 2012, 01:41:26 AM »
Could even be bad coils, they test OK on the bench but when you put them under load they give a lousy spark and get gradually worse as you ride.
Too many variables, you need to eliminate some! :)
I think the thing I most like about motorcycling is the speed at which my brain must process information at to avoid the numb skulls who are eating pies, playing the ukulele, applying make-up etc in the comfort of their airconditioned armchairs as they make random attempts to kill me!!!!!!!

Offline grasscutter

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Re: Engine Missing While at Cruising Speed (1981 Honda CB650C)
« Reply #73 on: January 22, 2012, 08:03:43 AM »
+1 on checking the advancer!  Most 650 owners forget this one.

+1 on re-installing the 't-fittings'. DUH!  Extra leanness all the way.

+1 on all 650 owners preaching about how lean this bike is 100% stock!

You've got a carb issue somewhere. 
Is your carb cleaning a full 'disassemble & soak'?  Compressed air through all ports?
You bench sync'd or manometer with bike running?

Come on!  We're burning daylight!

Offline F16Viper68

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Re: Engine Missing While at Cruising Speed (1981 Honda CB650C)
« Reply #74 on: January 22, 2012, 11:24:55 AM »
I swear to fuzzy @#$@#$ hell I'm going to burn this thing to the ground.  If I want this much frustration and bull I'll buy a Harley.

Dave...