Topic: cb550 battery question

[Ryan66]

So after doing research i see there are quite a few options for batteries out there. the standard one is cheap. Right now i just need it to get the bike running and check electricals. But the bike is being turned into a cafe bike and the filter box and battery tray is gonna be gone with pods in place. Ya ya i know the stories about pods. So my question is what batteries are out there that wll fit under a seat hump and power the bike and the have enough cranking power to start the bike? ive seen the shorai and ballistic lithium batteries. Very nice but $$$

[eldar]

Lithium batteries have not been used on these bikes for long. I am not sure I would get one without getting a new regulator/rectifier unit. The old mechanical lets through voltage spikes that may not be good for lithium. Another option would be a smaller AH gel battery or AGM battery.
The 550 charging system is kinda hokey but if you sparingly use the electric start and do not idle for long periods of time, a smaller battery should be fine.
If you switch to LED lights, you can gain back some charging capabilities which the 550 really could use.
IF I were you, I would use a smaller AGM battery, put in an electronic reg/rec unit, LED lights, and clean all connectors. An HID conversion would save some power too but you need some cash to do it "properly" with a projector housing. If you have a good H4 conversion bucket and lens, that will work OK too. Mine has not caused issues with police and I have not had oncoming drivers flash me.  OH, an electronic flash unit would be needed with LED signal lights.
I know some say they are not bright and all that but it depends on what brand you get.

[Ryan66]

Whats involved in in the new regulator rectifer switch over? as well as the led's because i just hooked up all new blinkers from dcc lol

[eldar]

It depends on what unit you get. Mainly just a simple swap for the r/r unit but again, depends on the unit. The lights also depend on their construction. Some lights are self contained and just pop right in but you need an electronic flasher for them to work right. Otherwise you need a load and that just defeats the purpose of LED lights.

[Ryan66]

Seems both are easy. Any ideas on whats the best battery that'll fit under a seat hump and power everything and keep a charge? Im assuming a decent AGM one?

[TwoTired]

If the old mechanical regulator is in proper working condition, and fed reliable and accurate status of battery charge state, it will not be responsible for "voltage spikes" to the battery.  The SOHC4 voltage regulation is indirect, meaning it only monitors the battery status and enables or reduces the alternator's max output capability.  Any motorcycle regulator for this genre will do the same thing.

Any motorcycle regulator you use will have voltage set points that are not ideal for Lithium battery technology.  Probably the worst calamity with Lithium is not the charging, but the discharge.  Deep discharge below a voltage set point can permanently cripple a lithium battery.  Meaning, if you ever abuse a discharged lithium battery, it will not prevent you from damaging it.  If you are going to use lithium, you either need a smart battery charge/discharge controller, or you should install a voltage meter on the bike so the operator can choose to risk the battery or not in an emergency.

I have a Shorai, and it is working fine so far (about a year).  I've never allowed it the reach critical low voltage levels, though.  I have a smart charger to keep it at peak charge when parked.  And, the old, original regulator keeps the battery from depletion on the road.

[Ryan66]

Thank you sir that is the kind of info i was looking for. Because i know nothing about wiring and electronics period. Im trying to learn. Im going over the electrical on my 76 550 and i feel lost lol! i think i have all the lighting wires figured out along with the controls wire but nothing else. Your almost talking chinese to me when you talk about the regulator and rectifier though!

[TwoTired]

Easy to get lost in unfamiliar territory without a road map.
The road map for your bike's wiring is the wire diagram.  I recommend that if you change the stock one, you keep a diagram noting the changes for your bike.

Trust me, you won't remember what you did in a couple years, and that diagram will save a bunch of time while you re-familiarize with a custom set up.

Cheers,

[eldar]

I don't know Lloyd, this seems to possibly say otherwise about the regulator.
http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php?topic=89571.msg1004356#msg1004356
Now it is a few months old and so maybe you have done further testing but as of that thread, the consensus seemed to be that the stock reg must be watched very closely and that a solid state unit would be a better bet. Again, it IS a few months old so might not be overly accurate anymore.

I must also say that li-po batteries DO require a much more stringent charging regimen. If you have multiple cells as these batteries do, then cell balance can become an issue, especially on cheap batteries, however; a quality battery should be matched when built.
 Overcharge Protection should also be used on any li-po battery. It may be the cheap ones do not implement this properly or at all as it is not required by law. You did and so did the older thread, touch on discharging and the effects of going to low, which could potentially be an issue if a person is stuck in traffic or otherwise idling for a fair length of time.
Given some of what I have found on these batteries, a typical battery tender is not usually advised unless it is purposely made to charge a li-po battery.

Now, with all of this, I am not saying to stay away, only that much more care should be taken with using such a battery. And while I am pretty sure you take the time for it, others may not, thinking it should be the same as a lead acid. I don't think even new bikes are coming with li-po batteries yet but maybe a few are, but their charging systems are probably quite different in construction than our old timers.

[Ryan66]

All this is good info and info im looking for. Hopefully others chime in that have used both types. All im looking for is a battery that will keep the bike charged and be able to go under the seat. And yes twotired ive noted what ive done so far. I actually have a clymer manual and that huige manual i printed off here. it looks like a dictionary. sitting in front of me. The wiring diagram looks like chinese to me. I know mechanical and engines and carbs very good but electrical i know nothing about. Now back to the battery and reg issue. i did see on here theres a member who updates the electrics in the old one so itll charge like it should,., Know anything about that?

[Ryan66]

Also studying and trying to understand the points ignition. All new to me as well. Seems easy on paper but until i open it up its also chinese to me lol. It also seems you can upgrade to electronic ignition and newer coils. All plug and play?

[scottly]

If the old mechanical regulator is in proper working condition, and fed reliable and accurate status of battery charge state, it will not be responsible for "voltage spikes" to the battery. 

Yes, it WILL cause voltage spikes, due to the operation of the mechanical points, while an electronic regulator will vary the field current more smoothly, according to demand.

I have a Shorai, and it is working fine so far (about a year).  I've never allowed it the reach critical low voltage levels, though.  I have a smart charger to keep it at peak charge when parked. 

The LiFe batteries have a very low self-discharge rate, so there should be no need for charging when parked.

[TwoTired]

If the old mechanical regulator is in proper working condition, and fed reliable and accurate status of battery charge state, it will not be responsible for "voltage spikes" to the battery. 

Yes, it WILL cause voltage spikes, due to the operation of the mechanical points, while an electronic regulator will vary the field current more smoothly, according to demand.

I disagree.  And, I have never seen any evidence of voltage spikes due to the V reg.  The impulse response of the field coil AND the stator coils are far far slower than any point contact bounce.  The changes to charging levels are all indirect.

If you are measuring spikes at the the battery, you might look for the inductive kick back from the ignition coils coils to be the source.  The alternator coil windings, themselves are a very effective filter for regulator contact switching.

However, it seems rather odd you would state that the electronic switches/steps are actually slower than a mechanical contact.

I have a Shorai, and it is working fine so far (about a year).  I've never allowed it the reach critical low voltage levels, though.  I have a smart charger to keep it at peak charge when parked. 

The LiFe batteries have a very low self-discharge rate, so there should be no need for charging when parked.
[/quote]

It's not about self discharge, it's about keeping cell balance, which no SOHC4 charging system can maintain, and why I use a balance charger designed for multi-cell LiFePO4 cells.  It simply cuts off when the battery's individual cells reach proper charge state.  And, you can select a storage charge level or a full charge level.
During recharge from the bike's system, cells can become unbalanced.  Continued use in this fashion causes some cells to wear out faster than others.   Balancing keeps them all working the same.

[Ryan66]

It's not about self discharge, it's about keeping cell balance, which no SOHC4 charging system can maintain, and why I use a balance charger designed for multi-cell LiFePO4 cells.  It simply cuts off when the battery's individual cells reach proper charge state.  And, you can select a storage charge level or a full charge level.
During recharge from the bike's system, cells can become unbalanced.  Continued use in this fashion causes some cells to wear out faster than others.   Balancing keeps them all working the same.
[/quote]
Is there any small AGM batteries that can keep the bike charged and power everything?

[TwoTired]

AGMs have about the same power density as Lead acid.  So, they will be about the same size for equal capacity.

Point of clarification.  Batteries don't keep the bike charged, the bike is supposed to keep the battery charged.

As for sizing, that's about the electrical budget.  You need to tally up all the electrical users in either amps or watts.
The Cb550 alternator can make 150 watts when revved to 5000RPM.
At idle it makes about 50.  If you never idle, then the total load must be under 150 for there to be any power available to recharge whatever battery you choose.
If you do idle, then the battery makes up any power deficit until it depletes.

The stock bike draws about 120 watts with the lights on.  And the system relies on more driving at higher RPM than idling to keep the battery up.  It's 12 AH battery.  By a crude and inaccurate  approximation, it supplies something like 144 watts for an hour (longer time with less drain).  So, in theory you can let the bike idle with lights on about 1 1/2 to 2 hours with a new lead acid battery or gel battery and the lights on, before the engine dies because of lost spark voltage.

Starting batteries have two ratings, one is Cold Cranking Amps (CCA) and the other is a discharge rate over 10 hours.  I believe the 12AH stock battery can supply 1.2 amps for 10 hours before the voltage drops to 10V.  10X1.2 = 12 AH.  The CCA is in the 150-range, though it isn't often stated prominently.
Smaller batteries in the same technology, deplete faster and have less CCA.

If you want the same versatility as stock, best to keep it stock.  If you are making a purpose built machine, best to know the intended purpose.  Like, how long it can be away from an external battery charger, for example.

Here is an electrical budget max and min I made for a CB550 some time back.

Stock CB 500/550 electrical budget.
Alternator output - 110 watts at 2000 RPM , 150 watts peak

50 W -High beam   Headlight
3.4 W -High beam indicator
8W    -tail light
27W    -Stop light
16 W  - 8 W x 2 Front run lights
13.6W    - 3.4 W X 4 Instrument lights
49.4W     -23 W X2 turn signals plus 3.4 w indicator
28.8 W - maximum for ignition  (when points closed, one at a time)
28.8 W – for the alternator field coil (Only when battery low)
225 W -total maximum drawn from battery

600W  -Starting motor

--- Minimum lighting ---
40 W -low beam Headlight
8W    -tail light
16W  -8W   x 2 Front run lights
13.6W   - 3.4W X 4 Instrument lights
15W  - ignition estimate  (points aren’t always closed)
28.8 W – for the alternator field coil (Only when battery low)
121.4 W -total  (normal electrical draw from battery)

Battery capacity is about 12v x 12 AH or 144 Watts


Cheers,

[scottly]

However, it seems rather odd you would state that the electronic switches/steps are actually slower than a mechanical contact.

The solid state regulators operate in a linear mode, so they have no "switches/steps" like the mechanical regulators.
Also, I find it odd that you state that you have never seen any voltage spikes do to the mechanical regulator; have you not posted that such variations can be measured when using a digital meter versus an analog meter? Oh, and by the way, since I have a Gerex CDI ignition, I don't think there is any chance of spikes at the battery being caused by inductive kick-back from the ignition coils... 

[fdbrat]

I belive this battery has got the solution to properly discharging and balancing the cells of a Litium battery.


http://touch.cycleworld.com/cycleworld/#!/entry/deltran-lifepo4-lithium-batteries,51daf0a82ce9351e049c06f8/1