Author Topic: 1977 CB750K, Getting very hot....  (Read 9211 times)

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Offline boots

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1977 CB750K, Getting very hot....
« on: March 16, 2012, 03:39:24 pm »
Hey gang! I've got a 1977 CB750K that's running rather nicely but has been getting rather hot rather quickly after some recent modifications. Just wanted to hear your thoughts on what might be the problem. Thank you, in advance.

The bike was running the stock air box, a 4-into-2 exhaust system and 115 main jets (I believe that's the stock main jet size).

I've installed EMGO pod filters, from CycleX, and upped the main jets to 140; a 4-into-1 exhaust was also added, it's made of kerker headers with a mac canister welded on. The bike is honestly performing great, but it's getting really hot.

Since the modification I've also been unable to start (the bike is kick start only) without turning up the idle screw quite a bit and pulling out the choke fully. As I let it warm-up I slowly back off the choke and turn the idle back to it's good running position. Could this be part of my overheating issue too? Or just a different issue with the bikes idle circuit?

Offline I Zombie

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Re: 1977 CB750K, Getting very hot....
« Reply #1 on: April 02, 2012, 11:15:39 am »
Sounds similar to my set up only mines a K8, with pods & open exhaust same size mains. I've gotta do the same thing to get started. Probably over jetted ut haven't had the time/$$$$ to play with jets tuning. Most likely why my mileage is crap too.
78 CB750K

Offline KB02

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Re: 1977 CB750K, Getting very hot....
« Reply #2 on: April 02, 2012, 11:43:40 am »
I would say that it sounds like you are running way lean on the slow circut. What slow jets are you running?

The aftermarket pipe and the pod filters will screw up the stock settings quite a bit and take some time to sort out. You may find that yu are running rich with that big jump to the 140's, which will off set any plug readings on the lower end. I bored out my 736 to 850 (cycle-X Kit), ported the heads, open 4 into 4 pipes and am running one of the Anti-Pod filter kits. I am running 135 mains and have had to up my slow jets two sizes... for what it's worth...
1978 CB750K Project
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Offline TwoTired

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Re: 1977 CB750K, Getting very hot....
« Reply #3 on: April 02, 2012, 12:15:49 pm »
The bike has an accelerator pump for fuel enrichment.  If it is working properly, 2-3 twists on the throttle should give it plenty of fuel for quick starts.

You should also check if the choke plates are closing fully during the choke operation.

Less back pressure exhaust = fuel enrichment requirement.  For all three fuel metering devices in the carb; pilot, throttle valve, and main.
The theory is that improved cylinder evacuation makes room for more oxygen intake, therefore more fuel is required to balance the mixture.

Lean burn is a hotter burn and the spark plug deposit patterns can be a window into the combustion process, which a mechanic can read.
Extreme lean burn can cause pinging and detonation which can destroy an engine (hole pistons, and bend rods).  But, it will still look good parked. ;)

Pod style filters shorten the intake duct and may (or may not) offer a filter membrane that adds less pressure differential across it.  Both these factors bring the carb throat pressure closer to the outside atmospheric pressure.  The pressure differential is what determines the volume of fuel pushed through a given jet orifice size.  Less pressure differential = less fuel, for the same amount of air passing through the carb.  Lean mixtures result, which leads to overheating, which leads to sacrificing the motor, burnt valves, etc.  Either the throat pressures must be restored to factory determined values, or ALL the fuel metering orifices must be altered to restore A/F mixture balance.

During cruise driving and mid position throttle selection, the fuel metering or A/F mixture ratio is dominated by the throttle valve. (slide needles AND it's associated jet).
If you are going to make changes to how the engine breathes, you must re-adjust this as well.  However, I don't believe there are adjustment positions for the PD carbs used on the 77-78 CB750 K.  So, you either need to steal some needles from an F model PD carb or add shims to raise the needle in the slide mount to enrich the mixture for cruise or midrange operation.
Alternately, the air jets can be reduced in size  (Usually through some machining operations,  which are not popular with home garage bike customizers.)
Or, perhaps the emulsion tube bleed holes can be size reduced or reduced in number (again such refinement is generally avoided by home garage bike customizers.

When you put the filters on in particular, you only just began to modify your bike.  You've got some exiting and repetitive try and test operations ahead to complete the change!

Cheers,
Lloyd... (SOHC4 #11 Original Mail List)
72 500, 74 550, 75 550K, 75 550F, 76 550F, 77 550F X2, 78 550K, 77 750F X2, 78 750F, 79CX500, 85 700SC, GL1100

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Offline BobbyR

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Re: 1977 CB750K, Getting very hot....
« Reply #4 on: April 02, 2012, 12:20:19 pm »
You can read your spark plugs using this pictorial guide by NGK.

http://www.ngksparkplugs.com/tech_support/spark_plugs/faqs/faqread.asp
Dedicated to Sgt. Howard Bruckner 1950 - 1969. KIA LONG KHANH.

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Offline I Zombie

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Re: 1977 CB750K, Getting very hot....
« Reply #5 on: April 03, 2012, 06:36:26 am »
I'm aware there's alot of thing to take into account when you start deviating from stock. Trying to take things slow & get my ducks in a row before getting elbows deep again. Already had her apart to fix PO's hack jobs & abuse. I'm gonna be going through the carbs once again, trying different jets & pos shims. Get some new plugs & see how close I can get her.
78 CB750K

Offline lucky

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Re: 1977 CB750K, Getting very hot....
« Reply #6 on: April 03, 2012, 09:55:34 am »
I am NOT surprised at seeing these posts.
As more 1977-78 bikes start to be rebuilt/cafe'ed and run you will see more of these posts.

The reason is that the 1977-78 carbs with pods. or stacks and a 4 into whatever exhaust
cannot just have a larger main jet and run properly.
Look at TWO TIRED's post above at the graph and you can see the main jet influence and its range. And in the graph above and others like it there is no accelerator pump and squirt nozzle influence shown.

The idle jet will have to be increased. Zero-1/4 throttle.
The main jet will need to be increased too, but you cannot just increase the mainjet and have the entire midrange FIXED. The midrange 1/4-3/4 throttle does have some overlap from the main jet but not all the way through the full range.
Also on those 77-78 bikes you have to make sure the accelerator pump and spray nozzles are working.
Look into the intake with filters off and engine off. Carbs full of gas. quickly turn the throttles a couple of time and you should see gas squirt out of the brass spry nozzle sticking up in the venturi.

Since the needle on the slide of this 1977-78 bike does not have the adjustable clip on the needle you will need to add some shims to raise the needle and richen up the midrange.
The shims should equal one position space on the needle .Try 1mm or .039 thousandths. make sure the little washers or shims sit down all the way into the slide piston. SEE PHOTO below showing the recessed pocket.
Make sure the washer will fit all the way down in the recess.
The brass washers vary in thickness so you have to measure them. Also there is a burr on the back side that needs to sanded or filed smooth.
If you use a stainless washer they are more precision in thickness but they would be harder to file or sand if you wanted to alter them.

NOTE: I actually made a mistake and put .044 thousands worth of shims on the needles of my 1978 carbs and was not paying close enough attention and did not notice that there was this recessed pocket at the bottom of the slide and so my washers were too large on the OD and did not sit down all the way.
The recess pocket at the bottom was .012 deep. so I actually I had raised the needle .056 thousandths!! It ran very strong but boy was it rich. LOL
So you can see that it is very forgiving. I had a #45 idle jet too. But that was a little large and it was not easy to start. I am going to reduce that to a #42mm.
The #40mm idle jet would not work it needed the #42mm

The main jet should be about 120 or larger. I would not go over 130.
Remember you are not going to be at wide open throttle that much.

After test riding and the engine cools, pull out a plug and check its color.
Maybe #1 and #4.

BTW while you are taking the slides out to put the shims back in let the slide on #2 carb set down to the bottom(make sure the idle screw is backed off), and with a caliper measure from the top edge of the slide to the top edge of the carb body and as you get the shims on all of the slides set the other carb slides to the same measurement as #2 slide.
The measurement should be about 1.205(something close to that) + or - .007
Then all of your slides will be with in .001 of each other.

Click ONCE on the photo to get a larger image.

After I run my 1978 CB750 with #42 idle jets,120 mains and .037 shims under the needles I will report back and let you know how close I got to perfection.
I would like to hear your results as well.
Between all of the owners of the 77-78 owners we will get the jetting down to a science. Make it easy for the ones that come after us.
Video link to my 78 bike running.
1978 CB 750


« Last Edit: May 27, 2012, 04:30:06 pm by lucky »

Offline KB02

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Re: 1977 CB750K, Getting very hot....
« Reply #7 on: April 03, 2012, 04:15:19 pm »
To shim the needles, you might want to get a Suzuki part.  :o

Suzuki part # for .020 shims is 13382-44030. As I said...they are always .020 and flat. They are also nice because they allow 1/2 clip adjustment.

This is from a post I did on shimming the needles on the 77-78 carbs. When you get to this point, you might find it useful:
How do you Shim the Needles on the Later Model PD carbs? Here, I'll show you...
1978 CB750K Project
2000 Ducati ST2
...and a pedal bike

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Offline I Zombie

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Re: 1977 CB750K, Getting very hot....
« Reply #8 on: April 05, 2012, 07:49:15 am »
Ok, with the  filters off so squirt from the Accel pump tubes. Pulled the carbs, dropped the bowls, not bad inside, lil sediment (sorry no pics). Opened the Accel pump housing, no tears in pump dia (thank god). What I did find was 1 of the small holes in the diaphram ear was plugged solid. Cleaned it out some, reassembled the pump into #2 bowl, filled with seafoam & worked the pump. The sea foam shot out the top like it should so thats a good start. Will tear into the rest of the carbs for more cleaning tonight.
78 CB750K

Offline 750K

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Re: 1977 CB750K, Getting very hot....
« Reply #9 on: April 05, 2012, 09:20:01 am »
Will be keeping an eye on this thread, not running pods but more carb info on a 77 is always nice. So glad I found this forum, the amount of info here is amazing!
77 Cb750, 78 Kz1000

Offline lucky

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Re: 1977 CB750K, Getting very hot....
« Reply #10 on: April 05, 2012, 10:14:13 am »
To shim the needles, you might want to get a Suzuki part.  :o

Suzuki part # for .020 shims is 13382-44030. As I said...they are always .020 and flat. They are also nice because they allow 1/2 clip adjustment.

This is from a post I did on shimming the needles on the 77-78 carbs. When you get to this point, you might find it useful:
How do you Shim the Needles on the Later Model PD carbs? Here, I'll show you...

Great link and write up with good photos KBO2. I wish you had measured those
shims/washers and told us if they needed sanding to be flat.
Thanks for sharing your experience.

Offline lucky

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Re: 1977 CB750K, Getting very hot....
« Reply #11 on: April 05, 2012, 10:19:24 am »
If you post info on this subject PLEASE tell us the exact jet sizes.
Statements like "one or two jet sizes" is very mis leading.

For instance one or two sizes could be 135-138? or does it mean 135-140?

See what I mean?

Offline Boulevard_beck

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Re: 1977 CB750K, Getting very hot....
« Reply #12 on: April 05, 2012, 11:33:02 am »
I'm so completely new to this, I can't even give you an example to illustrate it. I picked up Hondaman's book, so that should help, but... I would really love to see something like: if you have pods, and 4 into X pipes, and Keihin carbs, and it's a 197X cbXXX, then these are the jets/settings you will need for an average rider.
I know it all depends on the rider and their specific needs, and what type of performance you want, and, and, bla bla bla. Just something straight forward to give us noobs a starting point would be soo appreciated.

Until then, I'm following this closely. Thanks for the great descriptions of what you're doing and the challenges you're running into!

Offline BobbyR

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Re: 1977 CB750K, Getting very hot....
« Reply #13 on: April 05, 2012, 11:39:26 am »
I would suggest that you do a search on "Pods". You will find threads with tons of information of what has worked for others. I think it will be easier than playing 20 questions with Lucky. There really is no generic answer as you will see in those threads.
Dedicated to Sgt. Howard Bruckner 1950 - 1969. KIA LONG KHANH.

But we were boys, and boys will be boys, and so they will. To us, everything was dangerous, but what of that? Had we not been made to live forever?

Offline Boulevard_beck

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Re: 1977 CB750K, Getting very hot....
« Reply #14 on: April 05, 2012, 12:18:15 pm »
Why is it that the noobs always forget to do a simple search first! Haha... Thanks for the suggestion.

And based on my quick search, it looks like the majority of people seem to think that just leaving in the stock air box is the best solution. Pods just seem to be more trouble than they're worth. And I never even considered how riding in the rain would affect it.

Offline BobbyR

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Re: 1977 CB750K, Getting very hot....
« Reply #15 on: April 05, 2012, 05:59:36 pm »
Jack, just about everything you need to know about your Honda is on this site. Everything has been covered at some point.
Dedicated to Sgt. Howard Bruckner 1950 - 1969. KIA LONG KHANH.

But we were boys, and boys will be boys, and so they will. To us, everything was dangerous, but what of that? Had we not been made to live forever?

Offline I Zombie

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Re: 1977 CB750K, Getting very hot....
« Reply #16 on: April 06, 2012, 06:50:02 am »
Well good news & bad news. Good is I got my Accel pump squirts working, 2 & 3 seem to work better than 1 & 4. Number 1 & 4 look to be tilted downward? or maybe it's just me. No real clue yet. Bad news is I KILLED my accel pump diaphram. I was using spary carb clean to get the gunk & whatnot out of the bowls. So I filled the #2 bowl enough to get it into the accel pump housing. hooked it back up to the carb rack & got it spraying through all the nozzles. I dumped what was left out of the bowl & got called away. Hour or so later I went back to work on the carbs, opened the accel pump housing to find the diaphram swollen & eaten through. So now the search is on for a new pump for sure & then some different sized jets. Grrrrrrr not the set back I wanted.
78 CB750K

Offline madmtnmotors

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Re: 1977 CB750K, Getting very hot....
« Reply #17 on: April 06, 2012, 07:33:40 am »
What did you do with the crankcase vent (from the back of the valve cover) after removing the stock airbox? Did you cap it, or did you leave it to vent to the atmosphere somehow? If you left it open to vent, you're fine. If you plugged/capped it then you will always run hot. I blued a set of pipes that way.
TAMTF...


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                                           http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php/topic,139544.msg1579364.html#msg1579364
                                           http://oldmanhonda.com/MC/wiring750K1.html
Charging system diagnosis: http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php?topic=1012.msg8345#msg8345
Get the manuals: http://manuals.sohc4.net/cb750k/
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                                      http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php/topic,100352.msg1675840.html#msg1675840
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Offline I Zombie

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Re: 1977 CB750K, Getting very hot....
« Reply #18 on: April 06, 2012, 09:20:27 am »
Mines got a breather filter over it.
Quick jet question. I found these jet kits & trying to decide which I'd rather go with.

http://www.siriusconinc.com/pro-detail.php?pid=&product_id=178
http://www.siriusconinc.com/pro-detail.php?pid=&product_id=179

My question is are the threads all the same or is there a difference between 69-71 jets & 72-78?
78 CB750K

Offline TwoTired

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Re: 1977 CB750K, Getting very hot....
« Reply #19 on: April 06, 2012, 10:50:28 am »
Mines got a breather filter over it.
Quick jet question. I found these jet kits & trying to decide which I'd rather go with.

http://www.siriusconinc.com/pro-detail.php?pid=&product_id=178
http://www.siriusconinc.com/pro-detail.php?pid=&product_id=179

My question is are the threads all the same or is there a difference between 69-71 jets & 72-78?

I'd be concerned they don't know what they are talking about.  The 77-78 CB750 were the only models to have the PD style carbs.  All the rest of the carbs use different internal parts.
It would make sense that the kit with the shims would be "more correct", though.
I'd call them before ordering to see if their web designer is dumb or if the company is about correct parts.

"Unlease that extra power". Heh, anybody here "lease" their power?  From who?  And, what's the going rate?  I get the feeling they are more money centric than parts centric.  ;D

Cheers,
Lloyd... (SOHC4 #11 Original Mail List)
72 500, 74 550, 75 550K, 75 550F, 76 550F, 77 550F X2, 78 550K, 77 750F X2, 78 750F, 79CX500, 85 700SC, GL1100

Those that learn from history are doomed to repeat it by those that don't learn from history.

Offline I Zombie

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Re: 1977 CB750K, Getting very hot....
« Reply #20 on: April 06, 2012, 11:10:48 am »
So I'm gathering from what you're saying. Jets are the same 69-78, just choose the sizes you want?
78 CB750K

Offline TwoTired

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Re: 1977 CB750K, Getting very hot....
« Reply #21 on: April 06, 2012, 11:39:13 am »
So I'm gathering from what you're saying. Jets are the same 69-78, just choose the sizes you want?
I understand that the PD carbs used jet holders unique to those model carbs.  I don't know for sure about the earlier style 750 carbs because I haven't worked on them personally, only the PD carbs.  It's possible the jet holders accept the same jets, but I wouldn't assume so without confirmation.

I do know that none of the internal parts of the PD carbs for the 77-78 550K, will function in the earlier carbs for CB550.  I expected the 750 to be the same situation.  But, I don't have "hands-on" for the early CB750 with non-PD carbs.

That's why I'd call them before buying.

Cheers,
Lloyd... (SOHC4 #11 Original Mail List)
72 500, 74 550, 75 550K, 75 550F, 76 550F, 77 550F X2, 78 550K, 77 750F X2, 78 750F, 79CX500, 85 700SC, GL1100

Those that learn from history are doomed to repeat it by those that don't learn from history.

Offline boots

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Re: 1977 CB750K, Getting very hot....
« Reply #22 on: April 11, 2012, 10:55:05 am »
Lucky, thanks for the detailed info. I think I've been pointed in the right direction now. ;D

Offline boots

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Re: 1977 CB750K, Getting very hot....
« Reply #23 on: April 19, 2012, 09:07:56 am »
Well here's the epilogue to my tinkering with the jets and air filters on the 1977 CB750K....

After researching these carbs more and asking the right questions to the right people, I got rid of the pod filters and returned to the stock air box and stock main jet size.

I just want to go on record saying that from my experience I don't advise putting air pods on the 1977 k7 carbs.

And while I get grumpy about the aesthetics of the box.. it's looks better to me moving with the stock air box than it does parked with pods. ;)

Speaking of which, has anyone seen any interesting modifications to the look of the stock air box?  I will probably just paint it to match my side covers.

Offline madmtnmotors

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Re: 1977 CB750K, Getting very hot....
« Reply #24 on: April 19, 2012, 09:46:35 am »
TAMTF...


Wilbur



Projects:
"Evolution": http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php?topic=100352.0
"P.O. Debacle": http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php/topic,126692.msg1441661.html#msg1441661
F2/F3 O-rings: http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php?topic=113672.msg1300721#msg1300721
Cam Tower Studs: https://www.mcmaster.com/#93210a017/=t19sgp
Clean up that nasty harness: http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php?topic=137351.msg1549191#msg1549191
                                           http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php/topic,148188.msg1688494.html#msg1688494
                                           http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php/topic,139544.msg1579364.html#msg1579364
                                           http://oldmanhonda.com/MC/wiring750K1.html
Charging system diagnosis: http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php?topic=1012.msg8345#msg8345
Get the manuals: http://manuals.sohc4.net/cb750k/
The Dragon: http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php?topic=45183.msg1571675#msg1571675
Headlight Switch: http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php?topic=113986.msg1283236#msg1283236
Branden's leak free top end thread: http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php?topic=107040.0
Engine Lifting Made Easy: http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php/topic,58210.msg1684742.html#msg1684742
                                      http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php/topic,100352.msg1675840.html#msg1675840
Static and Dynamic Timing: http://www.hondachopper.com/garage/carb_info/timing/timing1.html
Airbox Gasket Replacement: http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php/topic,114485.msg1290000.html#msg1290000
"Café" : http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php/topic,84697.msg953814.html#msg953814
PD Carb Choke Linkage: http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php/topic,100352.msg1669248.html#msg1669248
                                    http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php/topic,110931.msg1248354.html#msg1248354
                                    http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php/topic,48858.msg515204.html#msg515204
Follow up on your damn posts: http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php/topic,144305.msg1791605.html#msg1791605
Taiwanese Cam Chain Tensioners:  http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php/topic,155043.msg1774841.html#msg1774841
Gumtwo Seat Cover: http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php/topic,164440.msg1897366.html#msg1897366
Primary Drive: http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php/topic,166063.msg1919278.html#msg1919278
Tank Latch: http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php/topic,165975.msg1919495.html#msg1919495
Shorten your forks: http://vintage-and-classic-honda-s.456789.n3.nabble.com/How-to-shorten-forks-td4042465.html DO NOT CUT THE SPRINGS!
Clutch How To: http://vintage-and-classic-honda-s.456789.n3.nabble.com/How-to-change-and-adjust-a-clutch-SOHC-td4040391.html
Late model K7/K8/F2/F3 front sprocket cover removal: http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php/topic,178428.msg2072279.html#msg2072279
630 to 530 conversion: http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php/topic,180710.msg2094423.html#msg2094423

Sent from my Tandy TRS-80!