Topic: 1975 cb550 Mission ACCOMPLISHED! getting the motor to turn free from seize/stuck

[goldarrow]

hi all,

this is my previous thread that i started off with.  http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php?topic=102110.0;all

now, as a few of you suggests, to get the motor from unstuck.

the PO had mentioned putting in some seafoam and PB Blaster before i got the bike, which is about a month time frame, but the engine still stuck

i squirted in some Kranoil in each of the cylinder today, so in the next couple of days i will try to rock it.

in the mean time, i will try to clean up some gunk around the engine with gunk cleaner. 

i also notice oil dripping from the bottom, seems to be coming from the oil pan, no so sure yet.

but one thing for sure is that the right side cover missing quite a few screws!  may be that is why its dripping oil?

[goldarrow]

some stainless steel bolts on ebay http://www.ebay.com/itm/HONDA-CB550-POLISHED-STAINLESS-BOLTS-CB500-/370596491701?pt=Motorcycles_Parts_Accessories&hash=item564945b1b5&vxp=mtr

should i get these? or not important yet? or should i go with regular bolts from autozone?

[rb550four]

You're gonna need them sooner or later. It seems that somebody has been in that case and didn't zip it up, like they needed to get back into it for something. If it were mine , I would pull the case and find out what happened in there. Perhaps there is something stuck between the gears like a spring clip or bearing retainer bolt, or clutch bolts left hanging out into the case ,maybe you'll get lucky and find something stupid but easy to fix that is hindering the engine's ability to rotate. You never know and you can check the condition of the clutch discs while you are there.

[ffemt2466]

My 750 was stuck and I tried everything and finally decided to take it apart, once I got down to the jugs I let the stuck piston sit with seafoam on it for about a day, then just some brute force and ignorance and it came free. Now just cleaning up all parts and about to order a bunch, can't wait. These forums are great so good luck!!

[Stev-o]

Yes, buy those bolts, that is a good deal. Doubt you would find the correct screws at Auto Zone.
And you will need a gasket too. And an impact driver from Auto Zone [$13] if the existing screws are on there tight.

[goldarrow]

ok, buying it is.

just want to be sure though if these are correct as to what i need for the gasket, before i commit to buy

gasket kit - http://www.ebay.com/itm/160769724061

found another seller in UK sells stainless bolts and nuts 560 pieces for about $66 shipped
will i need that many? mix M5, M6, M8 bolts
http://www.ebay.com/itm/310296675074

already have impact driver on hand

thanks

[goldarrow]

ok, day 1 of motor soak in with Kroil.  i tried to rock the bike back and forth, using gear 3, 4 and 5 but engine still won't turn.  so i put in some more Kroil.   couple of hours later, i see some of the Kroil drips along with the engine oil.  the Kroil is pinkish color so i was able to notice the differences in the color.  by now, the motor should have about at least 5 oz of kroil in it across all 4 cylinders.  should i add in some more?

should i be happy with this kroil dripping?  it seems to me like it's going down to the cylinders, so it's a good thing, right?

now, here's my stupid question, and it may sound silly too.  how hard should i "rock" her back and forth?  i know i can "rock" the other "her" as hard as i want.  lol

[Stev-o]

Yes, that gasket set will do, not sure if that huge bolt kit will have exactly what you need?

Rock 'er hard!!

[Randawg77]

You dont want to hydrolock the engine,  just be patient and keep rocking it.   and when it does break free that stuff will shoot all over the place!

[rb550four]

ENOUGH TO BREAK THE BOND BETWEEN PISTON AND CYLINDER WALL. You may have only loosened up the bottom end, If you have a stuck valve and continue to turn the crank ,things are gonna get crappy fast. If it were mine, I would get it loose if I could,measuring the distance from piston to spark plug hole and know what is happening when it rocks by taking another measurement to know if it's free or at least making progress. would also  visually or by wire inspect through each spark plug hole and note the positions of open valves and pay proper attention to those when the pistons break free. Should you not stop the piston and continue in an upward motion ,the stuck valve will be bent. Have you checked the inside of that side cover yet? And most important, do you have a shop manual ? Mandatory . You need to know what things should be and positioning of those parts upon inspection, removal, and reinstall or you'll be pissin in the wind and it's gonna be not only expensive but a bad experience.There is a download on this site.

[rb550four]

If it does happen to free up,  what is your next move? If you remove the valve covers and rockers, you can see the cam and timing chain. You may want to remove the cam chain (10mm on the cam) bolt that you can get to, rock the motor and remove the other bolt.Remove the cam and sprocket, slip a dowel through the chain so it doesn't drop into the crank.This can happen in the cradle on a 550. Why ? because you'll want to check the valves. Most of these old motors have lead deposits/carbon/rust on then that hamper proper seating ruining compression and vacuum,It'll never run right if corrective measures are ignored. Remove each valve and reseat. Spring compressor needed.
Then the motor should be removed from frame.Why? Because you need to know how much damage has occurred to cylinder walls and rings. You can check everything else in that case because you'll be splitting it wide open. No worries, the manual tells you everything that you need to know and what you don't understand members can help. I tell you this because the idea that this machine will just start running once it's free is more than unlikely and I think that you should be prepared for it. Not trying to sell gloom and doom , and not a prick, just trying to set you up for the  reality that you will be rebuilding this motor. What do ya say, you up for it?

[goldarrow]

- will get the gasket set ordered soon.
- will get the small set of bolts/nuts set for now if the large set is too much and uncertain if it has what i need
- haven't gotten a chance to open up the clutch cover yet as it requires oil drained, no time yet, and also replacement oil is expensive, and stupid me today i just put in about a quart of mobil 1 racing 4t 10w40 that i have, for no apparent reason
- yes, already have downloaded the manual, and printed with free printer and papers at work! 
-will get the oil drained this weekend, if time allows, and open the clutch cover for inspection.  i don't have the caliper to measure, but will get it from HarborFrieght when get a chance

-i have a long term plan.  the plan is to keep the bike as long as i can, or forever and good running.  i'm 35 yrs old and have 2 sons.  one is 4yr and the other is approaching 2.  i want to have two cb550 bikes green and orange and give them when they grow up.  if they don't want the bikes, at least i still have them 20 yrs from now.

- so my next move after getting the motor free?  hmm....getting title transfered to my name and do non-op i guess.  then try to get it to start up? i don't know, what is the next logical move?

[rb550four]

I like the plan . Wish my Dad gave me a 60 year old motorcycle. Good Dad!

[lucky]

ok, buying it is.

just want to be sure though if these are correct as to what i need for the gasket, before i commit to buy

gasket kit - http://www.ebay.com/itm/160769724061

found another seller in UK sells stainless bolts and nuts 560 pieces for about $66 shipped
will i need that many? mix M5, M6, M8 bolts
http://www.ebay.com/itm/310296675074

already have impact driver on hand

thanks

To use the impact driver with success you need to have the correct size phillips bit for the screw.

Also when you want to remove a screw you push in and twist the driver in the direction to loosen the screw...THEN tap the drive with the hammer.

You don't just put the driver on the screw and hit it with a hammer because that will strip the screw also.

[goldarrow]

If it does happen to free up,  what is your next move? If you remove the valve covers and rockers, you can see the cam and timing chain. You may want to remove the cam chain (10mm on the cam) bolt that you can get to, rock the motor and remove the other bolt.Remove the cam and sprocket, slip a dowel through the chain so it doesn't drop into the crank.This can happen in the cradle on a 550. Why ? because you'll want to check the valves. Most of these old motors have lead deposits/carbon/rust on then that hamper proper seating ruining compression and vacuum,It'll never run right if corrective measures are ignored. Remove each valve and reseat. Spring compressor needed.
Then the motor should be removed from frame.Why? Because you need to know how much damage has occurred to cylinder walls and rings. You can check everything else in that case because you'll be splitting it wide open. No worries, the manual tells you everything that you need to know and what you don't understand members can help. I tell you this because the idea that this machine will just start running once it's free is more than unlikely and I think that you should be prepared for it. Not trying to sell gloom and doom , and not a prick, just trying to set you up for the  reality that you will be rebuilding this motor. What do ya say, you up for it?

rb550four and everybody, thank you all for insights, advise, and all the help!  yes, i'm up and ready for the task - well, my mind is made up and ready, but don't have time and proper tools, so this will be a long project and start buying tools as i go.

[goldarrow]

day 2 on the motor soaking in Kroil, rock her some more, still no progress as the engine moving.  also put in some more of the kroil.   the bottom also seems to leak more oil than it did yesterday.  smell of kroil everywhere around the bottom where the oil drips.

just ordered the bolts set for the clutch cover - want to stop the oil drips

- will remove left side cover, and try to rotate the engine with wrench
- will also remove clutch cover to inspect if anything stuck in there - want to do this last as it requires oil drain, $10/qt of oil is something that i just don't want to waste.

i also did some reading from this site here http://www.dansmc.com/stuck_engine.htm  so, i tried to kick start, in gear, holding the clutch lever, the bike moves forward. - does this mean the mainshaft gears are bad?  hmm...

[rb550four]

Excellent! Healthy attitude, shop manual, ability to take on a long term project, and a support network on this site. Now all ya need is spare time and extra $. Good for you! I 'll be interested in your progress. Excellent!

[rb550four]

Don't put in $10 a quart oil until your first oil change. Run it on a less expensive oil first because you'll want to change it out after a short running period. This should not be an issue. You should really open up that clutch side before you do anything else. Put in spark plugs and lay it on it's other side so the oil doesn't run out,check area around the primary drive pinion and the gears behind the clutch outer drum. I have have a couple of motors here that have a guard around the primary drive pinion that could get wedged if someone didn't put it in correctly or damaged it trying to fix whatever previous problem. This doesn't cost anything and I'll stop talking about it if you look. Be sure that the 10mm bolts are in all the way and not binding things up ,I've had a couple come in with Phillips head screws instead of bolts. These should be tight too.Check the bearing retainer just behind the primary drive pinion to be sure it wasn't installed upside down and binding on the shaft. If that all checks out it will no longer be suspect. Then you can go on to the next thing,is this machine a high miler? Is the back tire smooth in the middle? The reason I ask is that I'm curious as to the condition of your primary drive chain and your timing chain. If your timing chain has broken it won't be on your cam, it'll be in the crankcase wrapped up in your crankshaft thus locking up the pistons. You could remove the tank and the upper valve cover and cylinder head cover to find out , or put spark plugs back in    ( DO THIS BEFORE YOU TIP THE BIKE SIDEWAYS) so you don't get that cylinder oil spilling out,remove crankcase oil, remove entire oil pan,and check for a primary drive chain ,see if it's bound up in the timing chain tensioner/perch. check slack up and down and side to side, bring a flashlight because you will be looking to see if that timing chain is in a pile around the center of the crankshaft. Bumping the tranny or wrenching the shaft would do no good if that chain lays on the bottom.

[goldarrow]

-i have a whole bunch of car mobil 1 oil in the garage, they were on sale, can i use those? they're from my Honda Element and Subie Outback
-spark plugs already back in fingers tight

couple of terms i need to clarify, just to make sure that i understand you and the manual.
primary drive pinion = mainshaft?
bearing retainer = manual did not mention anything about it - i'm a visual and kinesthetic learner (monkey see, monkey do)
timing chaing = cam chain?

according to the speedo, some 23000 miles
the back tire wear does not look to be bad.  looks like age cracks and no substantial wear.

remove tank, valve cover, cylinder head cover = like top end removal?  sounds like the fun is about to begin

[goldarrow]

this morning, did another quick inspection

- while i was checking the back tire, i shook the wheel side to side, and it moves/wobble.  most likely swing arm bushings need replacement?
- i also looked underneath and found quite some rust by the centerstand joint and surrounding area, complete tear down frame off for restore is added to my list of things to do? 
- tried to kick start again, gear in neutral - no budge
- tried kick start again, in neutral and hold the clutch - it kicks free

will try to rock her again this afternoon when i go home for quick lunch break

by now, i'm hoping the bike still worth the resurrection due to rust found on the bottom area - no, i'm not quiting, not giving up, just second thought that came in my mind.

[LesterPiglet]

remove tank, valve cover, cylinder head cover = like top end removal?  sounds like the fun is about to begin

The cylinder head cover is easily removed. No this is not top end removal as the cylinder head stays attached.

[rb550four]

Yes ,most likely swingarm bushings need replace.
primary drive pinion = the smaller gear to the lower right of the clutchbasket, with the big gear on the back that meshes with the primary gear (pinion). behind the primary gear the shaft goes through the case via bearings, the bearings are held in place by an elliptical (kind of) piece of steel with 2 bolts . the last bolt of your shifting mechanism is the top bolt of the retainer.Sometimes there is a guard around the left side of the primary gear  that is also connected to these 2 bolts that hold in the bearing retainer, since most if your clutch cover is missing all but 2 of the outer screws, it would make sense to me that PO made a hasty repair,screwed it up , and put the cover on with only 2 screws because he'd get back to it later. I have bought machines that had things like this assembled wrong and it won't spin.
 As for the mobile 1 , leave it on the shelf, there are all kinds of oil that you could use that is cheaper, and if ya really want to have some fun ..ask the members what they use and we'll be on page 25 by morning.

[rb550four]

I like the NO QUIT attitude. Just think , you'll know every nut and bolt on this machine when you are done. You will be much wiser ,you will choose the 2nd machine  ( the orange one) with an educated eye, knowing what to look for and how to fix it .

[goldarrow]

i will look into take the cover apart this weekend, if no rain and finish my and my brother, sister, and mom taxes.  also, i thought i would add some pics of my bikes before i start taking things apart, so that i see some of my progress. 

that's my 4 yr old son in the pic 

[goldarrow]

Today I did a bit of rocking the bike, still no budge.  Also have couple of hours to play with the bike.

I removed clutch cover, was easy, didn't even have to tilt the bike.  I guess all oil in the bike is gone.

I didn't see anything that seems out of ordinary, but will need your comments. 

The engine was still stuck when I removed just the clutch cover

The kickstart moves and kicks after I removed the 4 bolts that holds clutch lifter plate. I thought I had it!  But when I put back the lifter plate, the bike doesn't kick anymore.

I took the clutch plate out, put back in few times as I thought I did something wrong, but all same results

So I put everything back in, pack up for the day as I ran out of time. I got my new set of bolts, do I use those but one problem.  One of the long one seems like its stuck at almost all the way in. It was hard to go in and I did force it in a little, still leaving gap at the head. I hope I didn't do damage to it yet