Author Topic: How can I make a bunch of torque?  (Read 9405 times)

0 Members and 2 Guests are viewing this topic.

Offline Retro Rocket

  • Eggs are hard due too a
  • Really Old Timer ...
  • *******
  • Posts: 19,279
  • ROCK & ROLL
Re: How can I make a bunch of torque?
« Reply #25 on: June 02, 2012, 04:15:46 PM »
Nice.... ;)
750 K2 1000cc
750 F1 970cc
750 Bitsa 900cc
If You can't fix it with a hammer, You've got an electrical problem.

Offline shinyribs

  • Hot Shot
  • ***
  • Posts: 424
Re: How can I make a bunch of torque?
« Reply #26 on: June 02, 2012, 10:12:13 PM »
Higher compression and correct cam. 836 kit with 10.5 will end up in wheelies on 1:st and 2.nd gear without fiddling with the clutch, just twist right handle :)

Worked on mine with RC836 and Action Fours SS-1 cam (ported head too). Later pistons had lower compression. Soon compression back in engine and most likely a DP295 cam for more of everything.

Thanks for all the help so far. PeWe mentioned this setup. If I used one of the famous eBay 836 kits ($110 or something like that) is that a good kit?

To be honest I did not want to go into the engine when I first asked this question about more torque.I was really hoping for a cam swap. Am I right in thinking that I am gonna need more cc's to do this,or is it doable with 736cc's?

If I have to go 836,that's ok,but I cannot afford to go with aftermarket crank and rods at this point. But I am also looking for bottom end power so am I right in thinking I dont need the upgraded rotating parts needed for big rpm's?

I also got confused on the ''Worked on mine with RC836 and Action Fours SS-1 cam''. What is RC836? A brand of 836 kit?
And where can that cam you mentioned be bought? Where can I go for head porting,or is there any info on where to work these heads? I have been porting v8 heads for a long time,but I do not know the ins and outs of what these heads need/like. I have the equipment to port,but not the know-how for this application. Also,the 10:5 comp. ratio PeWe has,will that work using 93 octane pump gas. I know 10.5:1 or less with aluminum heads on an auto will do fine on 93,but not sure with the constant high rpms these engines turn.

Will stock valvetrain work for this?

Also,what clutch mods are needed? Will upgraded discs/plates (wrong name?) and stronger springs do the trick? And where do I shop for those?

I know that is alot of questions,but I am seriously trying to figure all this out and I really appreciate all of you guys help.
The darn fool didn't know it couldn't be done...so he went ahead and did it anyway.

My Hackjob build- http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php?topic=106103.0

Offline lucky

  • Really Old Timer ...
  • *******
  • Posts: 6,717
Re: How can I make a bunch of torque?
« Reply #27 on: June 02, 2012, 10:59:48 PM »
I have a '76 CB750 F. It runs great and I really have very little to complain about ,power wise.However,wheelie-ing on my bike involves a fair amount of clutch abuse :-[ i.e.-rev her up and dump the clutch :-[

I have never been inside one of these motors and know very little about the high performance lingo or parts that are available.

What can I do to help build torque to the point where I can just stab the bike and get it to wheelie?

Any and all ideas,opinions,point of view...etc. please! Thanks!

Try one of these. ;D

Cheers,
Brian

WOW !!!!

Offline Doctor_D

  • Hot Shot
  • ***
  • Posts: 722
Re: How can I make a bunch of torque?
« Reply #28 on: June 03, 2012, 06:59:02 AM »
I have no experience with el-cheapo 836 kits and can't help you there, but for parts, go look at the products Dynoman, Cycle Exchange, etc. offer.

http://www.dynoman.net/bikepages/sohc/index.html

http://www.cyclexchange.net/

Also look through build threads with performance motor-work on the Project Pages, like Branden's, Tweakin's, mine, and many others to see what people have used, what issues they ran into, and how they felt about the final product.

Finally, use the search function first.  It's a huge forum and chances are any question you have has already been answered at least twice.
Take care,
David
___________________________________________
1975 CB 750F - Project page: http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php?topic=66026.msg725479#msg725479
1978 CX500
1971 Norton Commando

Offline shinyribs

  • Hot Shot
  • ***
  • Posts: 424
Re: How can I make a bunch of torque?
« Reply #29 on: June 03, 2012, 07:12:41 AM »


  It's a huge forum and chances are any question you have has already been answered at least twice.

Very true! I have had very little success with the search function,but it's probably just me.

Thanks for the links and for the suggestion :)
The darn fool didn't know it couldn't be done...so he went ahead and did it anyway.

My Hackjob build- http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php?topic=106103.0

Offline PeWe

  • Really Old Timer ...
  • *******
  • Posts: 15,536
  • Bike almost back to the 70's 2015
Re: How can I make a bunch of torque?
« Reply #30 on: June 03, 2012, 10:40:41 AM »
You can get a basic healthy increase without headwork or rods.
 RC used to sell the 30-30 SUPER SAVER Claimed 30 % power increase and 30% decrease in fuel consumption. (IMO your results could vary)
 Kit had; 10:1 cast 836cc pistons, RC240 cam (exchange), 4-1 black exhaust.
 RC developed this kit to provide you with most effiecient motor possible.

I think this is a very good start. Making everything at once might give the wallet a chock.
BUT, it depends on the milage of the engine.
Maybe time for new internal chains + tensioners? You can check the slack from below. Remove the cover for oil pump. (Drain all oil first).
The measure between the cover surface for gasket relative  inner plate of the tensioner holding the rubber wheel, today old and hard. Max is 70mm.  (I read somewhere that new chains + tensioner measure 65mm)
Then new cam chain, a heavy duty version and adjustable sprocket for correct adjustment of the cam.

About pistions, the cheapest ebay pistons for $110US is not actual when you want more torque. This is LOW compression with NO dome at all. They write that where they sell the kit. look like OEM, just 65mm instead of 61mm.
The cheap kit I found is probably a good bang for the buck.
A hotter cam need better springs that is a rather cheap investment.
Clutch kit might be something too.

Below my thoughts about CB750 engine repair/ upgrade based on my experience and what I need to do now.

Check at dynoman and cycle exchange where they have nice parts. I'm sure other have too.
- 836cc 10.5 kit + cylinder job to 65mm. Grind the surfaces of cylinder and head. Flat and no scratches.
- Check that valves, seats, valve guides are OK. Maybe enough to grind the valves/seats with manual tool by yourself.
- Cam like WebCam 41/41A, Cycle exchange CX-1/2. DP295 if you need to go further with head job.
- Heavy duty valve springs are not expensive.
- APE Heavy duty cylinder studs for correct torque, no leak.

*** Here must the entire engine to be opened where you need to invest what needed like bad/damaged bearings. ***
Check the bearing close to the final shaft. Old engines had smaller bearing, newer wider double ball bearing. Not expensive when it's a std size of bearing.

- Heavy duty cam chain with new tensioner parts + adjustable sprocket (possible to open the holes in OEM sprocket)
You can replace cam chain without open the crank. Cut the old and buy new chain with Master Link - Tsubaki - BF05M if you buy Tsubaki BF05M 94 Link.
- Primary chains with tensioner if not replaced earlier.

- Clutch kit (can be replaced later whith engine in frame).  Complete kit for $150 at mentioned sites. Be aware of the alu clutch lifter plate when taking the clutch apart and on again. 4 screws must be untightened just a little on each screw step by step (all at the same time if possible. If not it will brake and increase the cost. You need a tool to remove the clutch, Cycle exchange has. Hammer and screwdriver will destroy the nut You need  to tighten it with controlled tourqe.

- Use correct sealer when assemble the crank halves.
I used the blue Hylomar last time and my friend was right, it will leak. Dynoman and cycleexhange have the correct stuff. I used Hemetite Golden  some years before which worked well too. DO not use excessive amount of sealer and silicone! Only a very thin layer on each halve, nothing to be squeesed out when tighten, it will block the important oil supplies of head, cam and block the oil pump grid. That will initiate another repair. Maybe an old owner has made that mistake? You will see when open the engine, bad cam bearing surfaces.
 
- All gaskets and rubber sealings will cost some too.
- New ignition maybe? There are electronic ones as Dyna S, PAMCO for about $120-150. These use OEM coils.

I have very bad experinces of OEM Points.
I heard from the very beginning that CB750 eats point parts. I replaced it every year, "Ignition points, condensers and back plate assembly". I had to drive my bike in France on the highway for at least 50km with one broken contact breaker to find a motorcycle work shop. Ran on 2 cylinders only while gasoline could destroy the lubrication of the other 2 dead cylinders. This thanks to a new complete point set, that broke after only 4000km. Bakelite broken on one of the ignition breaker. The part that has contact with the lobe open/closing the breaker
Sweden-Spain, way back in France I got the problem. Important to have a complete set extra.

- New paint for the engine crank?
- 4-1? There are some Yoshi replicas for $300-500. The chepest from CB750 cafe , the pricier in stainless steel from motogpwerks or Lossa enginering.
I'm sure that both dynoman and cycle exchange can make a nice kit for you. They have experience and have all goodies.
- Next step is not expensive is a lighter alternator when the crank is opened. Engine will answer quicker.

You will soon  understand that this is very fun and will go for lighter crank with better rods for heavy compression ratio, hotter cams.

When you take the engine apart. Put the parts in plastic bags and mark everything from where it belongs, which cylinder, valves etc.. Important to put it back the same way again, all parts on head must be mounted in exact same way later.
« Last Edit: June 03, 2012, 11:10:51 AM by PeWe »
CB750 K6-76  970cc (Earlier 1005cc JMR Billet block on the shelf waiting for a comeback)
CB750 K2-75 Parts assembled to a stock K2

Updates of the CB750 K6 -1976
http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php/topic,180468.msg2092136.html#msg2092136
The billet block build thread
http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php/topic,49438.msg1863571.html#msg1863571
CB750 K2 -1975  build thread
http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php/topic,168243.msg1948381.html#msg1948381
K2 engine build thread. For a complete CB750 -75
http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php/topic,180088.msg2088008.html#msg2088008
Carb jetting, a long story Mikuni TMR32
http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php/topic,179479.msg2104967.html#msg2104967

Offline 754

  • Really Old Timer ...
  • *******
  • Posts: 29,058
Re: How can I make a bunch of torque?
« Reply #31 on: June 03, 2012, 11:17:52 AM »
 I would be a bit reluctant to use the low compression 836 kit, but it may work well with a mild cam.
 You can also get BORE KITS and CAMS from APE, who helps out with this forum.
 Alternator is outside the cases, can be pulled off anytime (with proper puller) and sent out for cutting down, or buy a spare, and send it out..
 Good luck with it the first 30 % increase is cheap.. the 2nd 30 % costs a lot more,, the next 30 5 will have you "walking funny".. dont say I didn't warn you..
Maker of the WELDLESS 750 Frame Kit
dodogas99@gmail.com
Kelowna B.C.       Canada

My next bike will be a ..ANFOB.....

It's All part of the ADVENTURE...

73 836cc.. Green, had it for 3 decades!!
Lost quite a few CB 750's along the way

Offline fang

  • Hot Shot
  • ***
  • Posts: 401
    • Food Renegade
Re: How can I make a bunch of torque?
« Reply #32 on: June 03, 2012, 03:21:46 PM »
This has evolved into another engine building thread, but the fastest, easiest, and cheapest way to make lots of torque is to simply change the sprocket gearing.

Also, with a good clutch I can wheelie stock cb750s... when you rev it a little and dump the clutch, it really is not that big of a deal.  Hell, we used to wheelie bone-stock 1970's Goldwings all the time.   With any CB bike, with a big rear sprocket and maybe a slightly smaller one up front, the front tire easily is in the air with every hard start.  The trade-off is a lower top speed. 

peace and grease,
-fang
Download Nervous Norvus' "The Fang"  HERE.
Tired of eating CRAP!

Offline shinyribs

  • Hot Shot
  • ***
  • Posts: 424
Re: How can I make a bunch of torque?
« Reply #33 on: June 03, 2012, 10:22:40 PM »
Wow,PeWe! You must have been tired after all of that! Thank you so much for taking the time to tell me all of that. I saw the elcheapo 836 kits on ebay but never really looked into them. I didnt realize they didnt offer different compression ratios. The bike I have now is a '76F,but the motor this will all eventually go in to is out of  a '78K. I understand were some differences between these engines,but when doing an 836 kit ,cam,valve springs and better clutch and chains,am I right that all these parts will interchange? If I put one together and I like it can I just duplicate it for the other? Are there differences in the heads between these two motors?

754,haha! Ok,I will heed your warning! Messing around with drag cars I understand how the bug will bite you for ''just a little bit more....''. You speak the truth!

Oh,as far as mileage on the motors,the '76 just turned 41,000 miles Saturday and the '78 has 18,000 but has been sitting for the past several years with a plug out :( It does turn free,but that is the motor I plan to make these mods to. If that one runs good i will either duplicate it for my Cafe,or hopefully,know what I need to change to get the performance I want by that point.


Thanks everyone for their help and insight. I plan to compile a parts list soon.Maybe I'll run it by you guys for opinions before I drop actual coin on the parts,though. All of this help is very much appreciated!!!
« Last Edit: June 03, 2012, 10:31:33 PM by shinyribs »
The darn fool didn't know it couldn't be done...so he went ahead and did it anyway.

My Hackjob build- http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php?topic=106103.0

Offline shinyribs

  • Hot Shot
  • ***
  • Posts: 424
Re: How can I make a bunch of torque?
« Reply #34 on: June 03, 2012, 10:26:58 PM »
This has evolved into another engine building thread, but the fastest, easiest, and cheapest way to make lots of torque is to simply change the sprocket gearing.

Also, with a good clutch I can wheelie stock cb750s... when you rev it a little and dump the clutch, it really is not that big of a deal.  Hell, we used to wheelie bone-stock 1970's Goldwings all the time.   With any CB bike, with a big rear sprocket and maybe a slightly smaller one up front, the front tire easily is in the air with every hard start.  The trade-off is a lower top speed. 

peace and grease,
-fang


fang,you are right. I can get my bikes front tire up,but it does take some doing. I was not sure if the clutch would tolerate it for long,or even worse,if I would start killing tranny parts. I must say these bikes seem tough as nails1 I have had several days where I spent hours in the mountains ( i  love where I live!) flogging this poor bike to the point where I just felt sorry for it. I would be plum exhausted at the end of the day,but she just keeps purring. I almost think it likes it!
The darn fool didn't know it couldn't be done...so he went ahead and did it anyway.

My Hackjob build- http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php?topic=106103.0

Offline 754

  • Really Old Timer ...
  • *******
  • Posts: 29,058
Re: How can I make a bunch of torque?
« Reply #35 on: June 03, 2012, 10:31:23 PM »
 For 80 bux you get a clutch you cant make slip.
 One thing to look at, ithink CycleX has an 850 kit with decent compression, not real high priced I think.. You might luck out and find a tired 836 block cheap or just bore yours.. gonna cost about the same to bore regardless of wether you have a 120.00 kit or a 600.oo one.., except a used 836cc will cst far less to bore..
Maker of the WELDLESS 750 Frame Kit
dodogas99@gmail.com
Kelowna B.C.       Canada

My next bike will be a ..ANFOB.....

It's All part of the ADVENTURE...

73 836cc.. Green, had it for 3 decades!!
Lost quite a few CB 750's along the way

Offline shinyribs

  • Hot Shot
  • ***
  • Posts: 424
Re: How can I make a bunch of torque?
« Reply #36 on: June 03, 2012, 10:36:36 PM »
Thanks 754. One of my biggest concern is finding a competent machinist to handle the boring for me. I don't know of any shops near me that actually specialize in bike motors,but There may be on out there. Or at least maybe not too far away.

What is your recommendation on a clutch? Any particular brand/design?

Also,is a 10.5:1 836 kit completely streetable in regards to heat,pump gas and reliability? I understand the reliability will mainly be affected by machine work and assembly,but I guess you know what I mean.
The darn fool didn't know it couldn't be done...so he went ahead and did it anyway.

My Hackjob build- http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php?topic=106103.0

Offline 754

  • Really Old Timer ...
  • *******
  • Posts: 29,058
Re: How can I make a bunch of torque?
« Reply #37 on: June 03, 2012, 10:54:34 PM »
 APE makes  a  good clutch, that I would like to try, and Barnett.. I used them a lot.
 10.5 should run on pump gas, if you have the late head the CR may be lower which means the lo comp 836 would be even worse..
Maker of the WELDLESS 750 Frame Kit
dodogas99@gmail.com
Kelowna B.C.       Canada

My next bike will be a ..ANFOB.....

It's All part of the ADVENTURE...

73 836cc.. Green, had it for 3 decades!!
Lost quite a few CB 750's along the way

Offline Retro Rocket

  • Eggs are hard due too a
  • Really Old Timer ...
  • *******
  • Posts: 19,279
  • ROCK & ROLL
Re: How can I make a bunch of torque?
« Reply #38 on: June 04, 2012, 12:50:11 AM »
Quote
10.5 should run on pump gas

It will easily run on pump gas, I think Terry has an 836 thats 12.5 to 1 and it runs on premium pump gas...
750 K2 1000cc
750 F1 970cc
750 Bitsa 900cc
If You can't fix it with a hammer, You've got an electrical problem.

Offline shinyribs

  • Hot Shot
  • ***
  • Posts: 424
Re: How can I make a bunch of torque?
« Reply #39 on: June 04, 2012, 06:11:20 PM »
Great.Thanks guys. What is ''the late head'' and how do I tell which I have. It is not an F model bike,so it's not the F2 head,if that is what you are referring to.Not that I would know the difference anyways :o
The darn fool didn't know it couldn't be done...so he went ahead and did it anyway.

My Hackjob build- http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php?topic=106103.0

Offline PeWe

  • Really Old Timer ...
  • *******
  • Posts: 15,536
  • Bike almost back to the 70's 2015
Re: How can I make a bunch of torque?
« Reply #40 on: June 06, 2012, 07:48:04 AM »
Nice goodies here as well! :P
836 kit here + clutch kit + Cam chain & Primary chains with tensioners. +... +... +... +...
http://cbrzone.com/sohc.html

I envy you guys in US that can purchase these essential parts relatively cheap.

When I order from US sites I have to pay more for shipping and on top of that, tax to my government, +30% of the parts (price + shipment). Buy here cost even more... Thats why I bought cheap and probably OK pistons, but not forged.
CB750 K6-76  970cc (Earlier 1005cc JMR Billet block on the shelf waiting for a comeback)
CB750 K2-75 Parts assembled to a stock K2

Updates of the CB750 K6 -1976
http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php/topic,180468.msg2092136.html#msg2092136
The billet block build thread
http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php/topic,49438.msg1863571.html#msg1863571
CB750 K2 -1975  build thread
http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php/topic,168243.msg1948381.html#msg1948381
K2 engine build thread. For a complete CB750 -75
http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php/topic,180088.msg2088008.html#msg2088008
Carb jetting, a long story Mikuni TMR32
http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php/topic,179479.msg2104967.html#msg2104967

Offline shinyribs

  • Hot Shot
  • ***
  • Posts: 424
Re: How can I make a bunch of torque?
« Reply #41 on: June 06, 2012, 04:47:40 PM »
Thank for the link PeWe!

I know I ask too many questions. I promise I have been doing my best to wear out the search feature. Some things I just haven't figured out yet.  Thanks for all the help. I'm not even sure what I'll find in this motor til a tear it apart. Right now it is still in the frame so I can mock up exhaust,oil lines...etc. so I suppose this thread was premature,really. Just trying to get my ducks in a row for when the time comes. Thanks again for all  of you guys' help. Now all I have to is knock over a few liquor stores and I should be good to go!  Thanks again.
The darn fool didn't know it couldn't be done...so he went ahead and did it anyway.

My Hackjob build- http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php?topic=106103.0

Offline shinyribs

  • Hot Shot
  • ***
  • Posts: 424
Re: How can I make a bunch of torque?
« Reply #42 on: November 25, 2012, 09:13:48 AM »
Well,I finally got around to the part of my build where I got into the engine. As suspected,the #4 cylinder is unusable as-is and will require boring. So,I'm back on this 836 idea. In this thread there was mention of several things that I just didn't understand(bol'dor :o)and most of those I could never find any more info about. So in order to keep things simple for a simple minded guy like me, I'll just ask for cam advice at this point. The cam and followers out of this engine got used in another bike,so I'll need followers,or have mine repaired. Any advice on this?  Also,is there such a thing as high ratio followers? 
The darn fool didn't know it couldn't be done...so he went ahead and did it anyway.

My Hackjob build- http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php?topic=106103.0

Offline shinyribs

  • Hot Shot
  • ***
  • Posts: 424
Re: How can I make a bunch of torque?
« Reply #43 on: November 25, 2012, 09:54:42 PM »
Alright,I just ordered the Ebay special $110 836 kit. Now it crossed my mind about the valve reliefs on these pistons. How much cam (lift/duration) have been used with these kits in the past? My engine is a 78K and the head is very healthy. It's only a 16k mile engine. I intend to clean up the ports a little and lap the valves-that's it. The seats really look like they're making awesome contact now,so it'll really just be a light touch up on the seats. Stems and guides show now wear at all.

Is there a thread anywhere on here that shows what these heads like,porting wise? I'm not really looking to  build a top end screamer,these bikes do that pretty good stock :),so porting is not a real big issue to me. But if there is any info I'd love to see it.              Thanks!-Eric
The darn fool didn't know it couldn't be done...so he went ahead and did it anyway.

My Hackjob build- http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php?topic=106103.0

Offline Vreihenmotor6

  • Enthusiast
  • **
  • Posts: 147
Re: How can I make a bunch of torque?
« Reply #44 on: December 05, 2012, 07:26:34 AM »
isn't the stock gearing for an F bike a 17tooth sprocket, that will certainly give the impression of more tq, but the highway will be a bit buzzy as the rpms per mph will go up

Offline Don R

  • My Sandcast is a
  • Really Old Timer ...
  • *******
  • Posts: 19,816
  • Saver of unloved motorcycles.
Re: How can I make a bunch of torque?
« Reply #45 on: December 05, 2012, 09:20:53 PM »
Search for the E bay 836 kit, there are two or three threads with extensive information.  I used one with an F cam and home ported head, so far I love it. Much more fun to ride and I'm not revving it as hard as I used to.
No matter how many times you paint over a shadow, it's still there.
 CEO at the no kill motorcycle shop.
 You don't need a weatherman to know which way the wind blows.

Offline POPS 911

  • Expert
  • ****
  • Posts: 926
Re: How can I make a bunch of torque?
« Reply #46 on: December 06, 2012, 10:40:51 AM »
#1 Put bigger jets in carbs # 2 [ AIR BOX MOD ]  Then plumb in a dry kit nozzle head into air box between 3-4 carb boot inlets , shorten ends on rubber air box boots, put on a BLUE NOS bottle , run line from bottle to inlet of nozzle head, install a handlebar push button switch from MPS, RIDE DOWN THE ROAD AT FULL THROTTLE = PUSH BUTTON, HOLD ON. Might just lift the front wheel off the ground at 65mph w/stock motor. Will run rich when not spraying = rich good , lean bad !!!!!

PS. Make sure you turn the bottle on and watch the NOS pressure gauge 900-1000.

POPS BK911