Author Topic: 73' CB500 quick issues  (Read 4654 times)

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Offline PurduePete

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73' CB500 quick issues
« on: June 21, 2012, 07:34:02 am »
Restoring my 1973 CB500 and I have a couple of quick questions. Going to try and keep it concise instead of writing a novel like normal.

It starts and runs fine but the bike will not run with the choke off. I have to give it a lot of gas to keep it idling with the choke off. Any thoughts?

Also the carburetor on cylinder 1 is over flowing and leaking from the line to the float bowl. Is this most likely the needle valve? Assuming it is not seating properly or is grungy. Can I fix this without removing all of the carbs? Unfortunately never had a carb job that I could do on the bike, but hey maybe I will be lucky this go around. :o

Last question and the longest. There is a substantial amount of smoke being produced by the left side of the bike. Which is, if I am not mixing them up, cylinder 1 and 3. When I was installing new spark plugs the number 3 boot popped off, did my best to get it back in there well. If it is not making a good connection anymore would this be causing the gas to not completely burn off, thus the smoke? If that is the issue I wanted to try to replace the wires on the molded coils as well as the boots, there is a thread on here that outlines how to do it exactly. Also thought this might help improve the spark as others said it did. Obviously if it does not work I will then need new coils as I will have trashed mine. Also considering just getting the more expensive splicers which would total about $28 just for those, plus the new wire and boots and would still leave some of the old wire attached.

Sorry about the novel for the third question. Just wanted to include all the information. These may seem like trivial questions but just want to get my thoughts in order before ordering more parts, might be able to save a bit with some info from the pros on here.
1973 Honda CB500 Four - Restoring
2001 Suzuki DRZ400 Kicker - Street Legal

Offline Greggo

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Re: 73' CB500 quick issues
« Reply #1 on: June 21, 2012, 07:44:12 am »
Issue 1:  Are you running pods, or the stock air box?  Age of filter?  Last time you cleaned carbs?

Issue 2: Could be a gummed up float needle.  These can be checked with the carbs on the bike if you've got small fingers and some patience.

Issue 3: The wire can be trimmed back at the boots, just pull the boots, snip the wire till it's fresh (maybe just a few mm's) and reinstall the boots.  If that doesn't work, I'd suggest finding new coils...a pair can be had for less than $80.

Offline PurduePete

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73' CB500 quick issues
« Reply #2 on: June 21, 2012, 07:56:18 am »
There are not pods on it, the filter is fairly old, least 26 years. But clean. It won't run without choke with the filter out either. Tried it both ways.

I'll get in there tonight and check the needle and everything. Carbs were cleaned about a year ago and no fuel was run through until about a month a go.

The wire can't be trimmed because it is as tight as can be, was going to do that. 80 isn't too bad. Not as much as I wanted to drop. Be cheaper to buy the NGK splicers and new wire too. Cost about 60 for that, 30 without.


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« Last Edit: June 21, 2012, 09:44:12 am by PurduePete »
1973 Honda CB500 Four - Restoring
2001 Suzuki DRZ400 Kicker - Street Legal

Offline Greggo

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Re: 73' CB500 quick issues
« Reply #3 on: June 21, 2012, 08:05:59 am »
Do yourself a big favor and get rid of the pods...find a good stock air box, and start from there.  If you're stuck on pods, buy some new K&N ones, which have velocity stacks built into them. 

Here's a link to coils that will work on your bike (I know it says they're for a 750, but they will work just fine, scroll down to find them).

http://www.cb750supply.com/products/5/electrical/36/ignition-systems-coils-plugs-switches

Offline iron_worker

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Re: 73' CB500 quick issues
« Reply #4 on: June 21, 2012, 08:11:01 am »
If you don't want to pull the carbs off then get looking for a stock airbox. To get pods to run right takes a lot of experimenting/tuning/pulling carbs off/putting carbs on to get the jetting just right.

Sounds like your idle jets are plugged if it won't run without choke ... your emulsion tubes on your main jets might be clogged too if it won't even run at higher rpm's without choke (and the pods just make that worse).

As for your leaky carb ... your needle valve/valve seat aren't working as they should to stop the fuel flow or your float level is set too high.

IW

Offline PurduePete

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73' CB500 quick issues
« Reply #5 on: June 21, 2012, 08:59:13 am »
It doesn't have pods so that won't be an issue.

Clogged jets seem likely. I'll have a looksie tonight if I finish my homework.




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1973 Honda CB500 Four - Restoring
2001 Suzuki DRZ400 Kicker - Street Legal

Offline Greggo

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Re: 73' CB500 quick issues
« Reply #6 on: June 21, 2012, 09:17:54 am »
There are pods on it,
PurduePete

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It doesn't have pods so that won't be an issue.

PurduePete

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???

Offline PurduePete

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73' CB500 quick issues
« Reply #7 on: June 21, 2012, 09:43:43 am »
I am very sorry, should have reread it. I will change it. Just to clarify I do not have pods. Easy to miss a word on my phone.


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1973 Honda CB500 Four - Restoring
2001 Suzuki DRZ400 Kicker - Street Legal

Offline Greggo

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Re: 73' CB500 quick issues
« Reply #8 on: June 21, 2012, 09:57:46 am »
I am very sorry, should have reread it. I will change it. Just to clarify I do not have pods. Easy to miss a word on my phone.


PurduePete

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No worries, just trying to get the facts straight.

Offline LesterPiglet

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Re: 73' CB500 quick issues
« Reply #9 on: June 21, 2012, 10:09:37 am »
Your post looks a bit confusing. The cylinders are 1,2,3,4 from the left as you sit on it.
You can splice your own wires without buying a kit. http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php?topic=105814.0
All the carbs need to be removed as they are connected together, it's the only way to do it.
Seems like you need to go through all the carbs and clean them again.
'Then' and 'than' are completely different words and have completely different meanings. Same with 'of' and 'have'. Set and sit. There, their and they're. Draw and drawer. Could care less/couldn't care less. Bought/brought FFS.


Les Ross.            Certified by a Professional

Offline PurduePete

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73' CB500 quick issues
« Reply #10 on: June 21, 2012, 04:26:17 pm »
Yeah I figured. After writing the first post I went out and checked the labels. The way I put it was correct, left side exhaust (which is cylinder 1 & 3) were smoking and the number 1 cylinder carb is over flowing. Hope that helps.

That thread was very helpful. I am now considering using the self tapping screws but not quite convinced yet. That thread had info on boots that helped a lot. I now am positive of boot sizes and models.


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1973 Honda CB500 Four - Restoring
2001 Suzuki DRZ400 Kicker - Street Legal

Offline Greggo

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Re: 73' CB500 quick issues
« Reply #11 on: June 21, 2012, 04:38:56 pm »
Writing from the iPhone again, I see ;)  I understand what you're saying, hopefully you understand what Lester was explaining about how the cylinders are numbered.  It's 1,2,3,4, from left to right as you sit facing forward on the bike.  If you've just revived this bike, you may have to ride it a little before the smoking goes away.  Have you done a proper compression test?  Was it just brought back from the dead, and it's been smoking since?  How many miles have you put on it since you got it?...see where I'm going.  The more info you give us on this specific bike, and its history with you, the more help you can get out of this forum.  Don't be afraid to write that novel for us, it actually helps if you're concise   :D
« Last Edit: June 21, 2012, 04:40:55 pm by Greggo »

Offline lucky

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Re: 73' CB500 quick issues
« Reply #12 on: June 21, 2012, 06:27:00 pm »
I will try to clean up this mess.

The facts:
1973 CB500
Type of intake?
Exhaust 4 into 2.
Main jets?
Idle jets?
Needle clip position?


All engine issues must be resolved before the carbs are worked on.
The carbs HAVE to come off. End of story.
The 26 year old air filter should be thrown in the trash can. You can do that now.
The carbs will need new float needles and seats. Cleaning etc.,.

Purdue University is an engineering college. Do you plan on being an engineer?
« Last Edit: June 22, 2012, 01:38:59 pm by lucky »

Offline PurduePete

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Re: 73' CB500 quick issues
« Reply #13 on: June 21, 2012, 06:55:28 pm »
The intake is a stock air box with a very old though clean air filter. You are correct about it being junk basically. Been trying to keep the old parts around until I figure out what needs to be replaced the most. I may hold off on the spark plug caps and what not for now.

The exhaust is a 4 in 2.

No idea about the jets, a friend rebuilt the carbs but must not have done the job that he said. Knew I was taking a chance in trusting some one elses work but figured it was worth a go.

The bike was given to me by a friend of my dads and a shooting buddy. So I do know him fairly well and see him about every time I go home and make it to the range. He had too many bikes and just gave this one to me. As far as I can tell it has not been ridden in 26 years. The 1st owner was a friend of his and I have met him actually. He bought it new in 1983 if memory serves me, can look it up later. He drove it until 1986, or that is when the plate is dated and the most current registration. He then parked it to work on a house he was building, it sat for over a year. He then started it and drove it to his new house. When he got home he noticed it was smoking and lifted the seat and saw the wiring was burnt pretty good. He then parked it and didn't do a thing with it until he gave it to my friend. That friend worked on it a bit, his boy worked on a bit, and then his neighbor worked on it a bit more (neighbor rebuilt the carbs). No one ever got it running. I got it in January or so and started working on it. Got it running a couple months ago and haven't taken it for a spin yet. It needs a regulator before I can unfortunately, I broke it being stupid. I have been trying to fix a few things at a time because never have a lot of money. But it may be close to ready to ride, going to fix this carb issue by pulling the carbs and looking at the jets and all the settings currently. Don't have a dial caliper to bench sync it so going to grab one from the lab on monday.

Now you asked about engineering. Yes I plan on being an engineer, bout done. Only one more year and I graduate in May. I am going for Mechanical Engineering Technology at Purdue. It is not full blown engineering, but it is more hands on. We are supposed to be engineering practioneers and designers rather than just designers. In other words what we design is supposed to work without the guys on the shop floor redesigning it so that it does.

I got into bikes to work with my hands and learn more about engines for whatever I do in the future. This one needs more work than most of the ones I have worked on but I do know a decent amount about newerish  ;D dirt bikes. I have a 2001 DRZ400 that I wired to be street legal and had several older ones in the past few years that I have worked on a lot. Just never had an electric start bike that was meant for the road. Lots of electronics that my other bikes didn't have and a lot more carbs. One carb was always awful to get in and out of the bike so can't imagine 4. But I have experience working on some carbs. So while I may be only 22 I do know a little about what I am doing, just not a lot.

Oh an I work at a machine shop on campus so I can get a lot of the basic materials for some small upgrades there and even machine some of them. Certainly if I provide the materials and write the code to cut them. Our stuff doesn't use 3D modeling to cut up, still have to write NC code.

Now that should be enough back story on the bike and my abilities and Purdue. I will tear into those carbs after I finish my homework tonight if I can. School first, bike second... though not always easy to stick with that.
1973 Honda CB500 Four - Restoring
2001 Suzuki DRZ400 Kicker - Street Legal

Offline Scott S

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Re: 73' CB500 quick issues
« Reply #14 on: June 22, 2012, 03:23:11 am »
 Swap in a new air filter, too.....no matter how "clean" it looks.
'71 CB500 K0
'17 Triumph Street Scrambler
'81 Yamaha XS650

Offline lucky

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Re: 73' CB500 quick issues
« Reply #15 on: June 22, 2012, 01:46:30 pm »
Interesting story.
"Now you asked about engineering. Yes I plan on being an engineer, bout done. Only one more year and I graduate in May. I am going for Mechanical Engineering Technology at Purdue. It is not full blown engineering, but it is more hands on. We are supposed to be engineering practioneers and designers rather than just designers. In other words what we design is supposed to work without the guys on the shop floor redesigning it so that it does."

In the work world that would be called R&D. Then after you get it working other people will clean it up and make it look good. In manufacturing the buyer may decide on some items as far as cost.etc,

A corporation is difficult because by the time something gets manufactured it can get ruined. That is why you need a strong dictator at the top.

But remember some of the guys in the shop know so much, and have so many years experience, you want to buddy up with one of those guys because he can help show you how to actualize your ideas. It takes teamwork.


Offline PurduePete

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Re: 73' CB500 quick issues
« Reply #16 on: June 23, 2012, 05:55:22 pm »
But remember some of the guys in the shop know so much, and have so many years experience, you want to buddy up with one of those guys because he can help show you how to actualize your ideas. It takes teamwork.

Yeah that is what I was referring to. Whenever I am at an internship or job shadowing and the guys on the floor hear what I am doing they always harass me about making something that works. They used to complain about the head of engineering at the machine shop and manufacturing facility I worked for, never making something that could be run on the CNC without modification. I always listened to what they had to say and learned a lot from them, but also a lot from the head of engineering. Great experience to work with both and get two insights into the same job.

I have solved the choke issue....I'm a moron. Should have checked the manual. It runs without choke on just fine, thought that down was full choke and up was not. Not sure if it will start with choke or not, going to find out when I let it cool down now. Sorry about the mix up, feel pretty dumb now.

I replaced the regulator using the Ford F-150 regulator and solved a ton of issues honestly. The tail light works now, the high beam indicator lights up, and the battery charges. It was a real pain to fit in there though and took an hour or two of pondering to figure out where to put it. Decided to move the rectifier to where the old regulator was and then put the new big ass regulator where the regulator was. Works great though.

The air filter needs to be replaced still, quite badly as you all thought. Any thoughts on where to get an aftermarket filter? NOT PODS! The carbs still need to be pulled but the number 1 carb no longer overflows. I pulled the bowl and messed around a bit, it was very very clean other than the bolt at the bottom not looking great. I am still pulling them and checking them out well though just to be sure. But they looked a lot cleaner than my dirt bike carb did when I pulled it, and that bike ran like a champ (runs a lot better now though).

Also, any thoughts on unfreezing a front master cylinder? Only has rear brakes right now and those need replaced too. Going to get the EBC set from oldbikebarn.com. I am going to pull the old parts out and stick them back on and I will take a picture and post. Would love to hear some thoughts on what should be done next. Still thinking that it needs to be rewired coil side for new boots and better wire.
1973 Honda CB500 Four - Restoring
2001 Suzuki DRZ400 Kicker - Street Legal

Offline Greggo

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Re: 73' CB500 quick issues
« Reply #17 on: June 23, 2012, 06:30:10 pm »
But remember some of the guys in the shop know so much, and have so many years experience, you want to buddy up with one of those guys because he can help show you how to actualize your ideas. It takes teamwork.

Yeah that is what I was referring to. Whenever I am at an internship or job shadowing and the guys on the floor hear what I am doing they always harass me about making something that works. They used to complain about the head of engineering at the machine shop and manufacturing facility I worked for, never making something that could be run on the CNC without modification. I always listened to what they had to say and learned a lot from them, but also a lot from the head of engineering. Great experience to work with both and get two insights into the same job.

I have solved the choke issue....I'm a moron. Should have checked the manual. It runs without choke on just fine, thought that down was full choke and up was not. Not sure if it will start with choke or not, going to find out when I let it cool down now. Sorry about the mix up, feel pretty dumb now.

I replaced the regulator using the Ford F-150 regulator and solved a ton of issues honestly. The tail light works now, the high beam indicator lights up, and the battery charges. It was a real pain to fit in there though and took an hour or two of pondering to figure out where to put it. Decided to move the rectifier to where the old regulator was and then put the new big ass regulator where the regulator was. Works great though.

The air filter needs to be replaced still, quite badly as you all thought. Any thoughts on where to get an aftermarket filter? NOT PODS! The carbs still need to be pulled but the number 1 carb no longer overflows. I pulled the bowl and messed around a bit, it was very very clean other than the bolt at the bottom not looking great. I am still pulling them and checking them out well though just to be sure. But they looked a lot cleaner than my dirt bike carb did when I pulled it, and that bike ran like a champ (runs a lot better now though).

Also, any thoughts on unfreezing a front master cylinder? Only has rear brakes right now and those need replaced too. Going to get the EBC set from oldbikebarn.com. I am going to pull the old parts out and stick them back on and I will take a picture and post. Would love to hear some thoughts on what should be done next. Still thinking that it needs to be rewired coil side for new boots and better wire.

Look on ebay for a UNI foam filter, or get a filter from your Honda dealer.  I like the UNI's because they're cleanable, and reusable. 


Also, Don't Ride Around On Unknown/Old Rear Brake Shoes!!  They can separate inside the hub, and lock up the rear wheel if they're old.

Offline PurduePete

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Re: 73' CB500 quick issues
« Reply #18 on: June 23, 2012, 07:45:40 pm »
Thank you for the advice! I checked ebay and found one for about 30 bucks and got it. Should be here next week I hope. I'm going to order the brakes tonight as well. Going to pull the rear wheel this week and replace the pads and probably order a new rebuild kit for the masket cylinder and see about the caliper as well. Once that all gets here it will be bearings, chain, and tires before I am comfortable riding it on the road. I'll probably make a carb syncing tool as well to get it where I want it running. Maybe by earlier July I can have it road worthy. :D

Here are some pictures of it. I'll take more tomorrow when it is light so you can see how dirty it actually is.





I know about the brake shoes separating, that seems like a pretty normal thing even. No worries. It has no front brakes anyway so pretty dangerous. So I know it was dangerous but I dressed in full gear and took it around the little culvasac or whatever. The little circle at the end of a subdivision that they put about 4 houses. It rode really great, I used the rear brakes only once to stop in my driveway when I was done. I just had to, first time in 26 years for the bike. It stopped smoking on the left side while idling as well so it probably did just need to be run.
1973 Honda CB500 Four - Restoring
2001 Suzuki DRZ400 Kicker - Street Legal