Author Topic: Grr...beware Wiseco pistons...Part 2.  (Read 11979 times)

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Offline HondaMan

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Grr...beware Wiseco pistons...Part 2.
« on: July 02, 2012, 11:14:53 pm »
I don't often build the 750 with Wiseco pistons, mostly because their cost is high enough to scare off the potential owners. In years past, this cost was almost warranted. Today, I am not so sure.

Last Fall I was requested to build a Wiseco 836 for someone, and one of the rings in the kit came with a void in it: as soon as it was spread for installation, it broke in half. I had to buy a new set, then Wiseco was supposed to refund the cost after I sent back the failed ring. This added almost 2 weeks to the engine build, and I never got my $35 back, either.

In December I bought another Wiseco 836 kit for another build. After waiting for 5 weeks to get it bored at the machine shop, they discovered one of the pistons was undersized by almost .002" (!). I contacted them, sent it back with the dimensions of the other pistons in the set, and about 2 weeks and 4 days later got another piston. I took that one to the shop and it matched: they bored the engine and I got it back after 8 weeks (had to wait in line again). Today, I went to assemble this engine top end and: THERE IS NO OILING HOLES IN THE PISTON PIN BOSSES, on this replacement piston. How the $#@! can this be considered "quality"?

For a living, I design, build, and program machinery that inspects parts just like these with cameras, lasers, and all sorts of computerized gizmos. It is so commonplace now that I can't believe that a company like this one doesn't use this sort of tech to inspect things like voids in ring castings and (missing) drilled holes. I say this because if they did, these problems would not be happening: this machinery makes 100% inspections, 100% of the time, no errors, all day, every day.

I have used about a dozen of those "cheapie" 836 low-compression kits from Thailand (Cruzinimage on eBay) in the last couple of years. Every piston is within a few ten-thousandths of an inch from the others in every kit, and so far none have varied more than .0004" from any other among all of them. This is Honda-like piston quality. I think the same folks who make the superior pistons from Z1 Enterprises may also make these (Z1 pistons do have a better finish, though). This is indeed good value.

Wiseco: while they might make 4 HP more than the low-compression variety, stand ready to have to deal with this if you go that route.

----------------------------------------------------------
Update 7/3: I contacted Wiseco about getting another piston, and they told me to "run the piston the way it is, we don't put oil holes in for the wristpins now". WHAT!? Then I tried to explain how the other 3 pistons have oil holes: he responded with "Just mix them together, they will be fine." This is pure bovine excrement.

These people, at least this guy in their Customer Service Department, are off-the-wall. A non-oiled wristpin in a 10,000 RPM engine will seize in a matter of minutes. There is no other oil path into these pistons for the pin.

IMO: Avoid Wiseco...  >:(
« Last Edit: July 03, 2012, 09:14:30 am by HondaMan »
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Offline goldarrow

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Re: Grr...beware Wiseco pistons...
« Reply #1 on: July 02, 2012, 11:33:25 pm »
Thank you Hondaman. I have been waiting patiently for someone of your caliber to comment on the Cruzinginmage piston kits before I plunge in 150$ for 550 big bore kits.  Now if when i need it, I know where to get. Thanks
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Offline Dimitri13

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Re: Grr...beware Wiseco pistons...
« Reply #2 on: July 03, 2012, 12:30:08 am »
By the way, their name is cruzinimage_co, not just cruzinimage (won't find them under this name).

Offline jessezm

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Re: Grr...beware Wiseco pistons...
« Reply #3 on: July 03, 2012, 08:09:05 am »
Very happy with Cruzinimage_co pistons in my baby four!  And also incredibly happy with their customer service and shipping.  They may not speak great English, but they are clearly dedicated to answering questions the best they can and fixing my own issues (like needing extra rings due to my own incompetence) without hesitation.  One point of confusion, though--I thought these pistons were out of Chiba, Japan?

Offline HondaMan

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Re: Grr...beware Wiseco pistons...
« Reply #4 on: July 03, 2012, 08:48:35 am »
Very happy with Cruzinimage_co pistons in my baby four!  And also incredibly happy with their customer service and shipping.  They may not speak great English, but they are clearly dedicated to answering questions the best they can and fixing my own issues (like needing extra rings due to my own incompetence) without hesitation.  One point of confusion, though--I thought these pistons were out of Chiba, Japan?

That's interesting: I have just their last package here that I ordered: it came from Thailand. (?)
See SOHC4shop@gmail.com for info about the gadgets I make for these bikes.

The demons are repulsed when a man does good. Use that.
Blood is thicker than water, but motor oil is thicker yet...so, don't mess with my SOHC4, or I might have to hurt you.
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Offline HondaMan

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Re: Grr...beware Wiseco pistons...
« Reply #5 on: July 03, 2012, 08:50:41 am »
Thank you Hondaman. I have been waiting patiently for someone of your caliber to comment on the Cruzinginmage piston kits before I plunge in 150$ for 550 big bore kits.  Now if when i need it, I know where to get. Thanks

Speaking of 550 big-bore: if anyone wants a nice set of used 750 pistons for a Gentleman's Express big-bore, I have LOTs of 750 pistons, dirt cheap! PM me if you want some.
See SOHC4shop@gmail.com for info about the gadgets I make for these bikes.

The demons are repulsed when a man does good. Use that.
Blood is thicker than water, but motor oil is thicker yet...so, don't mess with my SOHC4, or I might have to hurt you.
Hondaman's creed: "Bikers are family. Treat them accordingly."

Link to Hondaman Ignition: http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php?topic=67543.0

Link to My CB750 Book: https://www.lulu.com/search?adult_audience_rating=00&page=1&pageSize=10&q=my+cb750+book

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Offline goldarrow

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Grr...beware Wiseco pistons...
« Reply #6 on: July 03, 2012, 08:54:57 am »
Thank you Hondaman. I have been waiting patiently for someone of your caliber to comment on the Cruzinginmage piston kits before I plunge in 150$ for 550 big bore kits.  Now if when i need it, I know where to get. Thanks

Speaking of 550 big-bore: if anyone wants a nice set of used 750 pistons for a Gentleman's Express big-bore, I have LOTs of 750 pistons, dirt cheap! PM me if you want some.

Sending PM this AM
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Offline MRieck

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Re: Grr...beware Wiseco pistons...Part 2.
« Reply #7 on: July 03, 2012, 10:13:37 am »
I have used 5 sets of Wiseco pistons (2 915, the rest 836 ) over the past 6 months with no problems. They all had 4 pin oil holes. I have had ring gap issues with JE's (very large). Funny as it just so happens I'm putting a top end together today for a fella using the low compression 65mm pistons. All the oil rails had zero gap. If somebody just threw them in big trouble. Also had to lap one of the 2nd rings as it would not move freely in the groove. One of the top ring gaps was shy about .003. Simple stuff BUT check all those rings. Weights ranged 1.7 grams with rings. Average weight weight was 205 grams with rings (on the heavy side). This is the first time I have ever had oil rails that tight. They are usually on the loose side
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Offline bwaller

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Re: Grr...beware Wiseco pistons...Part 2.
« Reply #8 on: July 03, 2012, 10:43:01 am »
This is the kind of stuff that drives me nuts too. Years ago I considered Wiseco big lunky things but had figured that had changed for the better.

As mentioned it just goes to show how important it is to be thorough. Don't take anything for granted, part of the tools necessary to build an engine include accurate measuring devices.

 

Offline HondaMan

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Re: Grr...beware Wiseco pistons...Part 2.
« Reply #9 on: July 03, 2012, 02:16:53 pm »
I have used 5 sets of Wiseco pistons (2 915, the rest 836 ) over the past 6 months with no problems. They all had 4 pin oil holes. I have had ring gap issues with JE's (very large). Funny as it just so happens I'm putting a top end together today for a fella using the low compression 65mm pistons. All the oil rails had zero gap. If somebody just threw them in big trouble. Also had to lap one of the 2nd rings as it would not move freely in the groove. One of the top ring gaps was shy about .003. Simple stuff BUT check all those rings. Weights ranged 1.7 grams with rings. Average weight weight was 205 grams with rings (on the heavy side). This is the first time I have ever had oil rails that tight. They are usually on the loose side

On this set, the ones that even have oil holes have just 2 holes. The last set (last year) had 4 holes.

Wiseco just called me back, told me I need to drill those holes. Duh...
See SOHC4shop@gmail.com for info about the gadgets I make for these bikes.

The demons are repulsed when a man does good. Use that.
Blood is thicker than water, but motor oil is thicker yet...so, don't mess with my SOHC4, or I might have to hurt you.
Hondaman's creed: "Bikers are family. Treat them accordingly."

Link to Hondaman Ignition: http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php?topic=67543.0

Link to My CB750 Book: https://www.lulu.com/search?adult_audience_rating=00&page=1&pageSize=10&q=my+cb750+book

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Offline goldarrow

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Re: Grr...beware Wiseco pistons...Part 2.
« Reply #10 on: July 03, 2012, 02:23:15 pm »
Wow, I can't imagine you pay a premium price on something and still have to do the work on it
Life Is Full Of Challenges - And My Backyard Is Full Of SOHC4's

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Offline brandEn

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Re: Grr...beware Wiseco pistons...Part 2.
« Reply #11 on: July 03, 2012, 05:29:07 pm »
This is unacceptable IMO. I have a Wiseco 836 F2 kit installed and I paid a pretty penny for them. Luckily everything was good with my kit but if it wasn't I would not be happy. Good info to have. I will be buying a 836 kit for my 74 K in the near future and this information will help with my decision for sure.

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Re: Grr...beware Wiseco pistons...Part 2.
« Reply #12 on: July 03, 2012, 05:54:09 pm »
I have used 5 sets of Wiseco pistons (2 915, the rest 836 ) over the past 6 months with no problems. They all had 4 pin oil holes. I have had ring gap issues with JE's (very large). Funny as it just so happens I'm putting a top end together today for a fella using the low compression 65mm pistons. All the oil rails had zero gap. If somebody just threw them in big trouble. Also had to lap one of the 2nd rings as it would not move freely in the groove. One of the top ring gaps was shy about .003. Simple stuff BUT check all those rings. Weights ranged 1.7 grams with rings. Average weight weight was 205 grams with rings (on the heavy side). This is the first time I have ever had oil rails that tight. They are usually on the loose side

On this set, the ones that even have oil holes have just 2 holes. The last set (last year) had 4 holes.

Wiseco just called me back, told me I need to drill those holes. Duh...
Yes....2 holes....my bad. Plus the oiling groove cut into the pin boss that intersects with the oiling hole. I'd say Wiseco F'd up.....Let me tell you about some Kibblewhite stuff that would make your eyes roll. ::) And I mean that sincerely though I think you do not use those products..
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Offline BAchvytrk

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Re: Grr...beware Wiseco pistons...Part 2.
« Reply #13 on: July 03, 2012, 07:25:24 pm »
I have used 5 sets of Wiseco pistons (2 915, the rest 836 ) over the past 6 months with no problems. They all had 4 pin oil holes. I have had ring gap issues with JE's (very large). Funny as it just so happens I'm putting a top end together today for a fella using the low compression 65mm pistons. All the oil rails had zero gap. If somebody just threw them in big trouble. Also had to lap one of the 2nd rings as it would not move freely in the groove. One of the top ring gaps was shy about .003. Simple stuff BUT check all those rings. Weights ranged 1.7 grams with rings. Average weight weight was 205 grams with rings (on the heavy side). This is the first time I have ever had oil rails that tight. They are usually on the loose side


 I too have had trouble with JE ring end gaps, one set was so large i thought they sent the wrong rings for the piston....
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Re: Grr...beware Wiseco pistons...Part 2.
« Reply #14 on: July 03, 2012, 09:18:53 pm »

On this set, the ones that even have oil holes have just 2 holes. The last set (last year) had 4 holes.

Wiseco just called me back, told me I need to drill those holes. Duh...

Needed to drill the other holes, huh?  I'd say that's a coded message in french, and it means "Buy someone else's pistons".

TY for posting the info about the rings.  I'd catch the missing/non matching number of oil holes, but can see getting the rings on without noticing the issue.

Does anyone still make the one piece style oil rings?

Offline HondaMan

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Re: Grr...beware Wiseco pistons...Part 2.
« Reply #15 on: July 03, 2012, 10:17:07 pm »
I have used 5 sets of Wiseco pistons (2 915, the rest 836 ) over the past 6 months with no problems. They all had 4 pin oil holes. I have had ring gap issues with JE's (very large). Funny as it just so happens I'm putting a top end together today for a fella using the low compression 65mm pistons. All the oil rails had zero gap. If somebody just threw them in big trouble. Also had to lap one of the 2nd rings as it would not move freely in the groove. One of the top ring gaps was shy about .003. Simple stuff BUT check all those rings. Weights ranged 1.7 grams with rings. Average weight weight was 205 grams with rings (on the heavy side). This is the first time I have ever had oil rails that tight. They are usually on the loose side

On this set, the ones that even have oil holes have just 2 holes. The last set (last year) had 4 holes.

Wiseco just called me back, told me I need to drill those holes. Duh...
Yes....2 holes....my bad. Plus the oiling groove cut into the pin boss that intersects with the oiling hole. I'd say Wiseco F'd up.....Let me tell you about some Kibblewhite stuff that would make your eyes roll. ::) And I mean that sincerely though I think you do not use those products..

Actually, I do use the Kibbles (guides), on engines with cams for the most part. They seem stronger against those high-lift side loads. For others I use Honda NOS or the API bronze guides. I've had good luck with the API stuff, but haven't used all of it (yet...).

These pistons do have one hole per side per pin, right in the little oil grooves. But, the last ones (it was over a year ago, just looked - 10/2010) I bought from a big sale they were having, had 4 holes in them. I might still have pix of those around, have to look. I can understand the 1-hole method, which was dragrace stuff of the 1970s. I still prefer 2 per side for "redundant" reasons (I'm like that...).
See SOHC4shop@gmail.com for info about the gadgets I make for these bikes.

The demons are repulsed when a man does good. Use that.
Blood is thicker than water, but motor oil is thicker yet...so, don't mess with my SOHC4, or I might have to hurt you.
Hondaman's creed: "Bikers are family. Treat them accordingly."

Link to Hondaman Ignition: http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php?topic=67543.0

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Offline MRieck

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Re: Grr...beware Wiseco pistons...Part 2.
« Reply #16 on: July 12, 2012, 01:37:39 pm »
I was looking at 836 and 970 Wiseco pistons with no oil holes drilled into the bosses. At 2:00 and 10:00 ( piston crown straight up) there are very shallow grooves that extend the length of the pin bore.  These are supposed to provide oil to the pin. I spoke to Kenny at CycleX as he is the only one with 70mm Wiseco pistons and he verified this. Apparently this is a new design.
« Last Edit: July 12, 2012, 01:44:01 pm by MRieck »
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Offline HondaMan

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Re: Grr...beware Wiseco pistons...Part 2.
« Reply #17 on: July 13, 2012, 09:20:29 pm »
I was looking at 836 and 970 Wiseco pistons with no oil holes drilled into the bosses. At 2:00 and 10:00 ( piston crown straight up) there are very shallow grooves that extend the length of the pin bore.  These are supposed to provide oil to the pin. I spoke to Kenny at CycleX as he is the only one with 70mm Wiseco pistons and he verified this. Apparently this is a new design.

This is interesting design thought: does it look like the oil is supposed to enter from the surface of the wrist pin, into a "slot", or something?

These particular pistons I have sure don't have anything like that in them, though.
See SOHC4shop@gmail.com for info about the gadgets I make for these bikes.

The demons are repulsed when a man does good. Use that.
Blood is thicker than water, but motor oil is thicker yet...so, don't mess with my SOHC4, or I might have to hurt you.
Hondaman's creed: "Bikers are family. Treat them accordingly."

Link to Hondaman Ignition: http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php?topic=67543.0

Link to My CB750 Book: https://www.lulu.com/search?adult_audience_rating=00&page=1&pageSize=10&q=my+cb750+book

Link to website: www.SOHC4shop.com

Offline phil71

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Re: Grr...beware Wiseco pistons...Part 2.
« Reply #18 on: July 13, 2012, 09:36:38 pm »
YOU need to drill those holes? What balls.

Offline HondaMan

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Re: Grr...beware Wiseco pistons...Part 2.
« Reply #19 on: July 13, 2012, 10:06:23 pm »
YOU need to drill those holes? What balls.

After the first go-around, where they searched for 5 days to find a piston in matching size to the other 3, and after which I had already bored the hole to match, I wasn't about to send them that piston for another exchange. I just KNEW that I would never get the right size back, and they would not ensure that I could just have them add the holes in THIS piston. It's actually that sort of 'spirit' on their side that makes me tepid about wanting to work with them again. It's hard enough to get the right parts for these critters, let alone someone messing with you in the midst!
See SOHC4shop@gmail.com for info about the gadgets I make for these bikes.

The demons are repulsed when a man does good. Use that.
Blood is thicker than water, but motor oil is thicker yet...so, don't mess with my SOHC4, or I might have to hurt you.
Hondaman's creed: "Bikers are family. Treat them accordingly."

Link to Hondaman Ignition: http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php?topic=67543.0

Link to My CB750 Book: https://www.lulu.com/search?adult_audience_rating=00&page=1&pageSize=10&q=my+cb750+book

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Offline MRieck

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Re: Grr...beware Wiseco pistons...Part 2.
« Reply #20 on: July 14, 2012, 05:40:20 am »
I was looking at 836 and 970 Wiseco pistons with no oil holes drilled into the bosses. At 2:00 and 10:00 ( piston crown straight up) there are very shallow grooves that extend the length of the pin bore.  These are supposed to provide oil to the pin. I spoke to Kenny at CycleX as he is the only one with 70mm Wiseco pistons and he verified this. Apparently this is a new design.

This is interesting design thought: does it look like the oil is supposed to enter from the surface of the wrist pin, into a "slot", or something?

These particular pistons I have sure don't have anything like that in them, though.
Yes...that is it. Oil moves in from the inside of the pin boss. There were definitely 2 slots in the pistons I was looking at. As for a piston being .002 larger (or smaller for that matter)....well....that is something else entirely. ;)
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Offline HondaMan

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Re: Grr...beware Wiseco pistons...Part 2.
« Reply #21 on: July 14, 2012, 08:29:49 pm »
I was looking at 836 and 970 Wiseco pistons with no oil holes drilled into the bosses. At 2:00 and 10:00 ( piston crown straight up) there are very shallow grooves that extend the length of the pin bore.  These are supposed to provide oil to the pin. I spoke to Kenny at CycleX as he is the only one with 70mm Wiseco pistons and he verified this. Apparently this is a new design.

This is interesting design thought: does it look like the oil is supposed to enter from the surface of the wrist pin, into a "slot", or something?

These particular pistons I have sure don't have anything like that in them, though.
Yes...that is it. Oil moves in from the inside of the pin boss. There were definitely 2 slots in the pistons I was looking at. As for a piston being .002 larger (or smaller for that matter)....well....that is something else entirely. ;)

I know I was shocked when the machine shop called me: I thought "With Wiseco pistons?". So, I took my own calipers to the shop to check it myself. They were right, of course.

Makes me wonder if maybe the economy has caused Wiseco the sort of personnel-loss problems we are seeing in our other support industries (on my day job side), where folks who have been in a company long enough to know how to do this stuff are being tossed out, losing all the expertise?
See SOHC4shop@gmail.com for info about the gadgets I make for these bikes.

The demons are repulsed when a man does good. Use that.
Blood is thicker than water, but motor oil is thicker yet...so, don't mess with my SOHC4, or I might have to hurt you.
Hondaman's creed: "Bikers are family. Treat them accordingly."

Link to Hondaman Ignition: http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php?topic=67543.0

Link to My CB750 Book: https://www.lulu.com/search?adult_audience_rating=00&page=1&pageSize=10&q=my+cb750+book

Link to website: www.SOHC4shop.com