Author Topic: electric starter issue, video [update x 2/3/4]  (Read 5694 times)

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Offline nccb

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electric starter issue, video [update x 2/3/4]
« on: July 29, 2012, 02:42:27 PM »
So I have been trying to address this issue by myself for a while but I just lack all of the mechanical knowledge to recognize the issue.  My electric starter went out late this spring and typically it will just click but sometimes it makes this god awful screeching/grinding noise.  When the headlight is on it will flick off while I have the button pressed but it will almost always kick over on the first try, unless it has been sitting for a week and then its just a matter of getting enough fuel into it.  Sometimes though when I kick it it will make the same weird noise for one or two kicks. 

I uploaded a video (my first) to youtube, thinking it would just click but it demonstrates the noise I am talking about.  I am sorry for the naiveté of this question but I just don't now enough.  Can anyone point me in the right direction?  Honestly, I need help on knowing what part does what, I have the Clymers manual but most of the diagrams are crap and I can't make heads or tails of what part I am looking at.  I am the type of person who has to know what a part does to know how to address an issue, its just a strange quirk.

cb750 electric starter issue help
« Last Edit: August 19, 2012, 12:48:55 PM by nccb »

Offline nccb

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Re: electric starter issue, video
« Reply #1 on: July 29, 2012, 02:45:56 PM »
sorry like my tag says, its a 74 750.  It is all stock and nothing has been modified on the bike.  Was in storage for 22 years or so but the PO had it for a little while and ran it. Hope this helps some.

Offline scottly

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Re: electric starter issue, video
« Reply #2 on: July 29, 2012, 07:49:28 PM »
That was painful to hear! :o
You need to check the starter clutch and gears, which are under the alternator cover on the left side of the motor. The clutch is mounted to the back side of the alternator rotor. You will need to remove the shifter cover first. Don't worry, we can talk you through this. ;D
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Offline nancy

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Re: electric starter issue, video
« Reply #3 on: July 29, 2012, 11:26:04 PM »
Might be starter clutch gear  - but I'd start at the starter motor itself 1st. New set of $5 brushes and make sure the armature turns nicely. Clean out all the spent carbon. Easy job. Although extraction of the starter motor needs patience, wiggling and a large flat blade screwdriver or similar to pry away the business end from the starter clutch gear.
Test it on the bench, out of the bike with a 12 volt battery. Positive to the cable end and just flash the negative battery wire across the body and the starter will jump and spin and scare the beejeebers out of you - that's a good thing. You can mount it in a vice to keep it from leaping around. Once the starter is good...and the problem is not solved...it's deeper as Scottly has pointed you to.
I have been there and done that...however I do share Scottly's sense of foreboding over the amount of noise yours is making...could be a bigger mess than mine was.
mark

Offline Bodi

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Re: electric starter issue, video
« Reply #4 on: July 30, 2012, 05:45:10 AM »
To me it sounds like the motor itself is OK, it whirs up to full speed quite nicely at one point. Since you always at least get a click when you push the button, the button and harness circuitry for it are OK.
Cicking and a lack of motor action points to one of two things: the motor or the solenoid relay. You could test the solenoid by just jamming a beefy screwdriver between the nuts on the two solenoid terminal studs. The nuts because going between the threaded posts tends to bur and damage the threads; a burned pit in a nut doesn't cause much trouble. If the motor spins (or you get that clunking) reliably every time you jump the stude, but just a click and no action with the starter button - that says the solenoid is flaky. If the motor doesn't work with the studs jumped, then the motor has issues.
The solenoid is serviceable. You disassemble it, clean the contact points (the ends of those studs) and the moving contact, clean any gunk out of the casing, and reassemble.
The motor is also serviceable. Usually it just needs a set of brushes and a good blasting through the brush holes to get carbon dust cleaned out. Only if really worn  out brushes were ignored and the motor used a lot in that condidtion is the commutator damaged. If that's happened I would source a good used motor. Getting it apart, dressing the commutator, and seating brushes to the new diameter takes a lot of time and is it really worth it when motors are fairly easily available?
But: this sounds like starter clutch to me. Rather a common problem. You have to get in there and have a look. The clutch is between the alternator rotor and the starter driven gear. The "outer" part on the rotor usually is the problem. There is a heavy housing screwed to the rotor. These screws can loosen (especially after poor tightening and no staking when someone replaces one) which usually causes the housing to crack. In the housing are three rollers, three springs, and three spring caps. These can come out somehow, especially the springs and caps. When the rotor is spinning (motor running) the rollers are forced out by centrifugal force and don't touch the other part - the driven gear. This is pretty foolproof except for the bushing on the crankshaft. It's oiled but can wear out and get sloppy.
The mechanism works by having the rollers, pressed against the gear extension, jam against it when the gear turns. This locks the two together in one direction but slips the other (the crankshaft can't drive the starter motor forward but it will drive the motor in reverse should a backfire while starting spin back the engine a bit).
The starter clutch parts are hard to find NOS but there are of course used parts available.

Offline nccb

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Re: electric starter issue, video
« Reply #5 on: July 30, 2012, 03:42:32 PM »
Ok thanks guys,  I will start looking for the brushes and first then find the springs and rollers for the starter clutch.  I take it I will also need to buy the tool to get the alternator out? I searched starter clutch on ebay and it kept coming back with what looked like the altenator and everything with it.  I wonder if my honda store can get them, they stopped servicing hondas older than 95.

Offline scottly

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Re: electric starter issue, video
« Reply #6 on: July 30, 2012, 04:37:47 PM »
Sometimes though when I kick it it will make the same weird noise for one or two kicks. 


This points to the starter clutch.
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Offline nccb

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Re: electric starter issue, video
« Reply #7 on: July 30, 2012, 06:08:55 PM »
Ok, I'll assume the worst and try to inspect the starter clutch first :-\  I was looking at the shop manual and its instructions to get at the starter clutch were referred back to the crankshaft.  It was saying to take off cylinder head and tensioners.  Will I need to disassemble half the engine or can I just take off the dynamo and starter covers on that side of the engine instead and still be able to pull the starter clutch gear and assembly?

Offline scottly

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Re: electric starter issue, video
« Reply #8 on: July 30, 2012, 06:30:37 PM »
It's not a hard job at all. You will need a rotor puller, but it's basically a bolt that screws into threads in the rotor. If you lean the bike to the right before removing the shifter cover and the alternator cover, you won't even lose much oil. A tip for removing the shifter cover: push on the end of the shift shaft with your right thumb as you pull the cover off with your fingers, or the cover can pull the shaft with it.
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Offline nancy

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Re: electric starter issue, video
« Reply #9 on: July 31, 2012, 02:24:17 PM »
Did I read correctly - a reply to some thread here - by Hondaman- that the front axle bolt on the K series 750 is designed to act - or can be used as - a pulelr for the rotor?
Mark

Offline nccb

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Re: electric starter issue, video
« Reply #10 on: July 31, 2012, 03:26:28 PM »
Did I read correctly - a reply to some thread here - by Hondaman- that the front axle bolt on the K series 750 is designed to act - or can be used as - a pulelr for the rotor?
Mark

That would be pretty cool. . .

[edit] looks like this was the post you were talking about
http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php?topic=72715.0
« Last Edit: July 31, 2012, 04:09:35 PM by nccb »

Offline scottly

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Re: electric starter issue, video
« Reply #11 on: July 31, 2012, 07:42:43 PM »
The front axle is too small to fit the rotor. The rear axle *may* fit, but it would have to be used as a slide hammer, as compared to the proper puller. Going to look for a pic...
Found it.
« Last Edit: July 31, 2012, 07:44:48 PM by scottly »
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Offline nccb

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Re: electric starter issue, video
« Reply #12 on: August 04, 2012, 12:44:07 PM »
Thanks for everyones help and suggestions.  I am on bike bandit looking for the parts and it looks like they have some of them.  So I am about to order 3 springs, 3 rollers, and a gasket.  They dont have the bolts.  I just can't tell if they come 3 in a pack or if I order 3, guess I can always return them or pass them on.

Do you guys think there may be anything else to take a look at?  I am unsure whether I should go ahead and order the caps for the springs, do those tend to have issues? I guess I should add new brushes just incase the starter motor needs em.  Again thanks for your help, hopefully these are actually in stock, got a green clock for availability so I guess that means go.

Offline scottly

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Re: electric starter issue, video
« Reply #13 on: August 04, 2012, 06:32:03 PM »
I wouldn't order any parts until I removed the parts and inspected them. I doubt if your starter is the problem, but you can test it without removing it after you have removed the starter clutch and gears.
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Offline lucky

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Re: electric starter issue, video
« Reply #14 on: August 05, 2012, 03:37:18 PM »
Every time you hit that button it is causing damage!!!

You need to take it apart before the cost goes up from all the damage.

Offline nccb

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Re: electric starter issue, video
« Reply #15 on: August 05, 2012, 04:01:44 PM »
I know, thats why I havent pressed it except to show what it did :o.  I am planning on taking it apart, just wanted to have the most likely parts ready to be present if it turns out they are the culprit. 

Offline nccb

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Re: electric starter issue, video
« Reply #16 on: August 10, 2012, 01:03:27 PM »
Thought I would update on whats going on as I search for how to remove the rotor:

Some of the parts I ordered should be here tomorrow so I took of the alternator cover.  I havent yet gotten the rotor off (kinda stuck) but did notice that the reduction gear is missing teeth, of course this part I haven't ordered.  The starter clutch gear appears to be fully intact though.  Once I get the rotor off I'll see whats going on in there but its looking like the starter motor might have been tripping over the reduction gear?

Offline scottly

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Re: electric starter issue, video [update]
« Reply #17 on: August 10, 2012, 08:00:49 PM »
The large gear that is concentric with the rotor has a hub, which the clutch locks onto when the starter is engaged. The large gear should spin freely in the clockwise direction, but lock up when turned counterclockwise.
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Offline nccb

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Re: electric starter issue, video [update]
« Reply #18 on: August 10, 2012, 08:17:08 PM »
I am sure it did but I'll have to double check it at first light. unfortunately I have no power in the building.  The teeth that are broken are the teeth that meet with the starter motor and what teeth are broke are broken on the back half.

Offline scottly

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Re: electric starter issue, video [update]
« Reply #19 on: August 10, 2012, 08:35:44 PM »
How are the teeth on the starter? I wonder if maybe the starter was loose??
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Offline nccb

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Re: electric starter issue, video [update]
« Reply #20 on: August 11, 2012, 08:07:30 AM »
Here are the pics of the reduction gear.  When it was in, if I spun the rotor with my hand it did seem that the starter gear from the motor would move up slightly but I couldn't tell if it was just because I was putting uneven pressure on it while trying to spin.

I used a rope to tie to the frame to take out the rotor set bolt and bought a drain plug it use to take the rotor out, it was all I could find on short notice.  I think I may have to order a real one because I feel it is to small but I have read of other guys on here using them. 

Offline nccb

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Re: electric starter issue, video [update]
« Reply #21 on: August 11, 2012, 08:08:23 AM »
more pics

Offline scottly

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Re: electric starter issue, video [update]
« Reply #22 on: August 11, 2012, 09:34:06 AM »
The gear on the end of the starter shaft should not have any movement up or down.
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Offline nccb

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Re: electric starter issue, video [update]
« Reply #23 on: August 11, 2012, 09:38:47 AM »
ugh, alright :-[ So now I should remove the starter motor or open up the cover and tighten it?

Offline scottly

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Re: electric starter issue, video [update]
« Reply #24 on: August 11, 2012, 09:53:08 AM »
It might be a bad bearing in the starter. The motor housing has a "snout" with an O ring that is normally a snug fit into the engine case, so it might not be a matter of the starter being loose. If you can wiggle the shaft, and see that the snout is not moving, then suspect the bearing.
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Helmets save brains. Always wear one and ride like everyone is trying to kill you....