Author Topic: Cam chain adjust spins round and round + glitter in the oil.... help? CB550 PICS  (Read 42586 times)

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Offline dave500

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i have a telescoping magnet that fits inside a 12mm deep socket,it makes installing the head nuts easy,also to drop those washers in squarely slide them onto a phillips screwdriver,hold the washer against the handle and aim the tip of the screw driver to that dot you can see in the middle of the stud and hold it against it,then release the washer and itll drop over the stud.,your cam comes next,they can be a fiddle but youll do it.

Offline pilotguy1050

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I read this entire post yesterday, and am glued to this story like my wife used to be glued to GENERAL HOSPITAL.  AMAZING STORY.  You got some major balls, DustyRag!  You are my hero..  Seriously.  Don't stop now!  :)
Wayne

-many bikes in the past
currently own:
'73 Honda CB350F
'96 Harley Sportster XLH-1200(Sport)
'00 Harley Heritage Softail Classic with sidecar

Offline DustyRags

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Thanks Dave, hadn't even occurred to me to use a screw driver- which is silly, because I've used that trick countless times before! The washers actually worked really with the forceps- stick the forceps through the center, expand them to grip the washer from the inside, stick them down until they touch the stud, squeeze, and the washer drops right in. Ditto the nuts.

Well, they would if I hadn't magnetized my forceps by sticking rare earth magnets to them...   :P

Thanks, Pilot! I assure you, I'm more curious than brave, but glad to hear you're glued ;D
1976 CB550K- sold
2005 Kawasaki Vulcan 500- sold
2000 CB750 Nighthawk - sold
1975 XL350 - crashed
2004 Suzuki Vstrom 650 - sold

Offline DustyRags

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AAARGH! Came in this morning, re-torqued the head, then went to install the cam- and noticed that the tensioner is pretty far forward. Too far. Dropped the oil pan (should have done this first....) and yup, it's wrong. Tore it all down again.

But...

I cannot for the life of me find that damn well! Where is it supposed to fit? It feels like there's back (incorrect and rubbing on the primary drive), a little well right in front of that that isn't deep enough to let it sink all the way down (doesn't line up the lock bolt) and any further forward it runs into the bottom sprocket on the cam chain.

Help me Obi Wan Kenobi. You're my only hope.

I'll have my smart phone on me and will keep checking here as I fide with it. Thanks for any insight!
1976 CB550K- sold
2005 Kawasaki Vulcan 500- sold
2000 CB750 Nighthawk - sold
1975 XL350 - crashed
2004 Suzuki Vstrom 650 - sold

Offline DustyRags

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NEVER MIND FIGURED IT OUT!!  ;D ;D ;D

Insert lock screw in cylinders. Drop whole thing in place. Commence stacking. Torque. Pray it doesn't leak like a French spy.
1976 CB550K- sold
2005 Kawasaki Vulcan 500- sold
2000 CB750 Nighthawk - sold
1975 XL350 - crashed
2004 Suzuki Vstrom 650 - sold

Offline dave500

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yeah thats a finiky fit the bottom of the tensioner,heres a clear look at the well,this also shows where the primary chain once slack can rub on the case and actually through a full oil pressure gallery in the worst case.

Offline TwoTired

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Nice picture, Dave. Seriously.

Just wondering, and considering your pointing device, are you saying it's screwed?

Cheers, ;D ;D
Lloyd... (SOHC4 #11 Original Mail List)
72 500, 74 550, 75 550K, 75 550F, 76 550F, 77 550F X2, 78 550K, 77 750F X2, 78 750F, 79CX500, 85 700SC, GL1100

Those that learn from history are doomed to repeat it by those that don't learn from history.

Offline DustyRags

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Cool, that makes sense. Got the head torqued down (again), and the cam and sprocket in place and timed. Wrestled the carbs in, then back out, then the boots in and the carbs back in and everything snugged. Snapped a fuel filter  >:(

Pictures and detailed write up coming later.
1976 CB550K- sold
2005 Kawasaki Vulcan 500- sold
2000 CB750 Nighthawk - sold
1975 XL350 - crashed
2004 Suzuki Vstrom 650 - sold

Offline dave500

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that case is ok loyd,its together as a spare motor,this is where glitter in oil can come from,youve doubled checked your cam install timing to make sure its correct?youve turned it over slowly by hand a few times?then recheck your marks one last time before you hit that starter button.

Offline bryanj

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It's OK TT I don't think dave got the irony of that comment---he has moved to Australia and they are upside down you know!!!

(Ducks rapidly and runs away!)
Semi Geriatric ex-Honda mechanic and MOT tester (UK version of annual inspection). Garage full of "projects" mostly 500/4 from pre 73 (no road tax in UK).

Remember "Its always in the last place you look" COURSE IT IS YOU STOP LOOKIN THEN!

Offline DustyRags

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Dave, I'm fairly certain the glitter came (among other things) from the quarter-inch deep rivulets churned into the side of the tunnel by the flogging chain :P

I haven't turned it over yet (probably should...) but I've triple-checked that alignment. I'll turn it over before I mount the head cover. What am I looking for? A bind? Something more subtle?

Pics of yesterday to come, but for now the sweety and I are going to explore an old coal mine near here. Writing can wait :)
1976 CB550K- sold
2005 Kawasaki Vulcan 500- sold
2000 CB750 Nighthawk - sold
1975 XL350 - crashed
2004 Suzuki Vstrom 650 - sold

Offline dave500

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just recheck the timing marks after a few turns.

i understood the screwed joke,i was just pointing out to others that the slight scoring on theses cases is nothing to worry about.
« Last Edit: September 23, 2012, 12:44:15 PM by dave500 »

Offline DustyRags

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First- Dave, thank you for all your input. It's been invaluable. I mean, everyone's been great, but your help with the tensioner fitting was perfect. I'll recheck the timing before I slap the hat back on.

Here's how Saturday went down...

First, my upstairs neighbors/landlords/awesome people had their not-quite-so-awesome grandchildren over that starting making noise like only toddlers with wooden toys on a hardwood floor can. Right over my bed at 7:30 in the morning. So I was up, showered, breakfasted and at my brother's shop by 9:00, and re-torquing the bolts. They held tension perfectly this time.

Next, I dropped the cam in. Even as I was undoing the wire that kept the cam chain from falling into the tunnel, I had a weird feeling in my gut and put the wire on the work place instead of in the bin. Take a moment to look at this picture. Notice anything about, oh, say, the tip of the cam chain tensioner on the left side? Perhaps how it's not letting the cog sit in the middle?



That's right, it wasn't in the right place. But that was impossible, right? We got it place so perfectly and easily, couldn't feel it rattling against anything when we moved the crank shaft...

I did what I should have done first- pulled the two center pipes back off (including the crossovers, that were STILL a pain to get just right), and dropped the oil pan. Sure enough, there was the tip of the *&^%$#@ tensioner. Also, the oil pan appeared to be leaking a bit.

Notice the "I" instead of "we"? Yeah, my brother was out of town this weekend, so this was all two hands, not four.

Next, off came the outer pipes, the bolts were de-torqued again, pulled the cylinder head (not easy with one person, but not too bad if you just let the chain fall in and pull the wire through the tunnel later), then the head gasket and started fiddling with it. I happened to be noodling around some other forum thread Friday, and noticed Dave mentioning something about putting the tensioner lock screw through the cylinders, and then dropping the whole shebang in, and that's how I finally got it to go- after about 20 minutes of screwing with it. I was getting seriously frustrated. Luckily, right before I got it, my girlfriend showed up with one of her projects (lacquering paper drink coasters with owls on them- that's right, even when my sweety is being girly, she makes freakin' drink coasters!), and that prevented the real blowup. I got it dropped in shortly after her arrival and verified it through the gaping maw where the oil pan is. Stacked it, torqued it, got lunch. I'm getting way too good at this.

Then I got the oil pan back in after lunch (feeling much more human now), and got it all torqued to spec. I suspect I didn't have it nearly tight enough the first time, hence the oil leak. I'll keep an eye on it. Then my sweety helped me get the pipes hung again, which went much easier with the left hanger already banged back into shape, and got the headers torqued to spec. Again, much tighter than they had been.

Then the cam went in smooth as butter, the cog, the chain (get the chain on the right side of the cog and it'll go on really easily), I got it all to TDC before hand, so it was just a matter of lining the cam up, walking the chain back and forth to the right spot, and bolting the cog in place.

Notice the blood in the glove. Something bit me.



But this was not the end of the put it together/take it apart/put it together again order of the day.

Next I cleaned up the manifolds, put new seals in them, and snugged them down nice and proper. Then new screws into the aluminum straps around the hard rubber bushings between the manifold and the carbs, where I noticed that some of the straps were wide and relatively short with fat screws, and others had thinner screws, were narrower, and a bit longer. Too long to do much. Since they were clearly too long for the manifold side, I figured they went on the other side and that the carbs might expand them a bit. Nope, no dice, too big. I snugged the screws down for now and made a mental note to get the proper straps.

The the carbs went in really easily.



Then I grabbed the soft rubber boots between the carbs and the airbox, and noticed that those straps were a bit too short. Lightbulb! I checked and... yep, someone had swapped the straps out. I pulled the too-long ones off the bushings, and put the proper ones on. The longer ones fit the boots perfectly (for those keeping track, this was the fourth thing today I took off the bike today- the head/cylinder, oil pan and pipes being the others).

But then the boots wouldn't wiggle in. Just weren't having it. Sigh. Off came the carbs (five...) and on went the boots.



Then I got the carbs wrestled in place, and I do mean wrestled. That was not easy at all. Took a lot of finesse and a lot of brute strength to bend that much 36 year old rubber without wrecking anything. And then I finally got it all lined up, and the boots didn't want to reach all the way. Just wouldn't go.

So then I remembered to loosen the airbox, and that gave me enough wiggle room to get the boots strapped down snug.

Looking all pretty!



See that there's only one fuel line sticking up? Yeah, the short one kept getting tangled, so I went to tug it apart at the filter, and the bastard snapped right off on me. Got me pretty miffed at first (grr argh, another trip to the motorcycle store during work hours...) and then I realized that a) they probably sell those at the auto parts store and b) I have to go there anyhow to get oil. And then I was mollified.

Busted fuel filter.



The next step is the head cover and the tappets. To be perfectly frank, I'm fearing those a bit. Do they need to be torqued? I have no idea how I'd do that without wiggling them all over the place. I'm inclined to use a box wrench to snug the lock nuts down, so I can keep a screwdriver in the slots. Anyone have any sage advice?

Goal is to get it running this week, or Saturday at the latest, so I can take it for a shakedown ride on Sunday.
1976 CB550K- sold
2005 Kawasaki Vulcan 500- sold
2000 CB750 Nighthawk - sold
1975 XL350 - crashed
2004 Suzuki Vstrom 650 - sold

Offline Tews19

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Awesome! Can't wait for the video of her running! Please post first start up!
1969 Honda CB750... Basket case
1970 Honda CB750 survivor.

Offline DustyRags

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How's this, I'll take videos of the first startup, and if it's a one, two or three-kick start, I'll post it. If not, I'll get it running smooth, and then post a single-kick start video. Deal? ;)
1976 CB550K- sold
2005 Kawasaki Vulcan 500- sold
2000 CB750 Nighthawk - sold
1975 XL350 - crashed
2004 Suzuki Vstrom 650 - sold

Offline dave500

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replace the cover screws with stainless allens,get a dozen 6mm copper washers,six of those cover screws have an aluminium washer from the factory that will be missing or damaged,i like to replace them with copper ones,also four are used on those angle brackets that the end covers screw up to,one top and bottom each side,the brackets are marked "L" and "R".,only nip those screws down as tight plus a little more that you could do with a screwdriver,im fact any 6mm bolt should be tightened this way,dont put any pressure on the front four screws in those little ears near the tappet covers untill the cover is nearly down youll snap them easy,have the tappets backed all the way off,a couple will still compress a valve or three as its tightened down,be sure the rockers dont snag on the valve tip as the cover goes on.

Offline DustyRags

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Yup, already all stocked up on copper washers, should be good to go there. Can't say off the top of my head how many I have, but I do know that I took a head count when I pulled it all apart and replaced as necessary, so they should all be there in both aluminum and copper, all new.

Allens- Why? Because they're easier to get out than with the damned impact driver? If nothing else, that seems like a good reason to me, but so far I have no Allens anywhere on the bike... this might come down to a "if I can get to the bike to pick up the screws I need and then back to a hardware store to pick up the Allens" type of thing.

6 mm bolts- the Honda manual has torque values for them (varying from 5.1 to 10.1 ft lbs), so I've been following that for anything I can get a socket on, and just cranking down nice-n-tight for anything slotted or Phillips without torquing (although I'm now suddenly tempted to go and pull the left side cover back off and re-crank the oil pump, looking at those numbers...) Safe? Dangerous?

Thanks on the note on the ears, I'll be careful on those. Ditto the tappets- I backed them completely off the valves before I pulled it, but I'll go ahead and get them totally backed out before I install, and then cutting down an inner tube into appropriately strong rubber bands to keep everything nice and out of the way but still let the rockers move enough to snug it down.
1976 CB550K- sold
2005 Kawasaki Vulcan 500- sold
2000 CB750 Nighthawk - sold
1975 XL350 - crashed
2004 Suzuki Vstrom 650 - sold

Offline dave500

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if you have compressed air be sure to blow out any blind holes so you dont compact crud and strip a thread,youll be ok.

Offline DustyRags

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Canned air is already on the shopping list.  ;D
1976 CB550K- sold
2005 Kawasaki Vulcan 500- sold
2000 CB750 Nighthawk - sold
1975 XL350 - crashed
2004 Suzuki Vstrom 650 - sold

Offline dave500

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you might even come across a small used compressor cheap?

Offline DustyRags

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Thought about it, but I've got nowhere to store it- I live in a studio with a small closet and a corner of the basement to store stuff. The work's all happening in my brother's shop. The good news is that as soon as he runs across a good-size compressor (he works in a salvage and recycling company, so it's a matter of time) we'll start putting together a media blaster and air brush! ;D
1976 CB550K- sold
2005 Kawasaki Vulcan 500- sold
2000 CB750 Nighthawk - sold
1975 XL350 - crashed
2004 Suzuki Vstrom 650 - sold

Offline DustyRags

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OK, I'm getting a bit frustrated with this thing. TL;DR: tappet issues.

First the good news- showed up and my brother was showing off the new toy he picked up at work- a sandblasting gun. He thinks he should be able to find a compressor in the course of the next month. Now we'll really be able to do some damage!

Anyhow, once again my hat's off to Dave- I double-checked the timing as you suggested, and noticed that the timing marks weren't lining up quite exactly. When I got them lined up on the points, the notch seemed to be about 10 degrees low. Not much, but enough that it made me nervous. I double check and tripple checked everything, and figured out I was using the wrong timing marks- corrected for that (the T mark on the 1-4 TF), and everything line up perfectly. So more back-and-forth, but I continue to end on the high note of knowing that I did it right. It's a good feeling. Had some trouble getting the bolts back into the cog, but then figured out that for some reason one of them wasn't happy in one of the holes. Swapped them out, and they went in fine. OK, whatever, probably just a bit of burring on the tip of the screw.

Then I cleaned the head. Looks like whoever was last in the head cover glued the seal in, so it took some time to get it all cleaned out. A bit of hardwood sanded to a point worked fairly well, and a razor blade for the stubborn bits of rubber. Then a tooth brush, and scrubbed the whole thing with mineral spirits and break cleaner.



Part of that was pulling the tach connection, cleaning that and replacing the o-ring. There was a tense moment when I dropped the washer, but we found it and it all went back together just fine.



Next we got the head finagled on, and good lord, was THAT an operation! We go the tappets fully backed out and rubber banded in place (tip- rings of innertube work great for this). Naturally, the seal kept falling out of the groove, so that was a huge issue to get it all figured out, but we finally managed to get a putty knife and a flat piece of bamboo from some broken toaster tongs in there that were flat enough and yet large enough to hold the seal in place until the last second.

Checked the tappets- yup, moving freely, we're good.

Then we encountered rocking. Lift back up. Lose the seal.

Check tappets. OK.

Get head back down. More rocking.

Check tappets. OK.

Rocking. Muck about. Finally figured out it was the tach and that worm gear not meshing properly with the cam. OK, turn the motor gently and... clunk. In place.

Check the tappets. OK. All eight move freely. Torque head to spec- not easy on the Phillips head screws, but not impossible. Will definitely be replacing these with hex bolts or Allens next time. Check tappets.

Not OK. Somehow, the course of the torquing brought the #2 exhaust and #3 intake tappet fully in contact with the valve, even though they were backed all the way out. Can't even slide the 0.002 feeler gauge under it. No play at all. We tried turning the engine- it moves about 12 degrees in either direction. One direction frees the #3 intake a bit, but the #2 exhaust never frees at all. At the end of the free play, the engine locks.

I'm at my wit's end. Those tapperts were backed all the way out and then banded in place. They ALL had free play until we torqued it. And now this. What's going on? How do I fix this? Help!

Wrapped it up and put it away for the night. So much for going for a ride this weekend.




Edit:

Wait, hang on, am I being an idiot? Please tell me I'm being an idiot.

Are those valves currently open? I mean, if #1 and #4 are currently at TDC, then #2 and #3 should be at bottom, so those valves might be open... so they SHOULD be making good, solid contact, no?

Please tell me I'm an idiot and that's all it is.
« Last Edit: September 25, 2012, 11:16:51 PM by DustyRags »
1976 CB550K- sold
2005 Kawasaki Vulcan 500- sold
2000 CB750 Nighthawk - sold
1975 XL350 - crashed
2004 Suzuki Vstrom 650 - sold

Offline dave500

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the timing marks for tdc are to help you align the cam,,forget about the ignition and the "F"mark at this point,,also the marks for 1/4 and 2/3 only apply once for each pair in turn as the crank is turned as far as the cam timing is concerned,,for example you cant set both the valves for one and four with the mark aligned unless you rotate the crank again,this is where guys get confused,,,,do it this way only!!!,,as you rotate the engine watch as any intake valve starts to go down,,keep turning the engine slowly then watch as it starts to come up and close,,,now look at the timing mark tdc for that cylinder pair,,keep turning and watch as its tdc mark comes into sight and stop it at the case index mark,,,set that cylinders valves here,,then rotate the engine and watch as any inlet valve starts to go down and repeat,,you cannot go wrong this way,,ignore the stupid honda method of doing a few valves at a time etc,,it confuses novices and results in damage,this way the tappet your adjusting is as its loosest.,,recheck your valve timing before you do this,,with the tdc mark lined up of any pair 1/4 or 2/3 that index mark on the cam should be either as the book shows forward or if its dead backward thats ok!a four stroke cam shaft rotates at half crankshaft speed,,another myth is the cam being 180 degrees out,,it cant happen!

Offline Fritz

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Quote
Not OK. Somehow, the course of the torquing brought the #2 exhaust and #3 intake tappet fully in contact with the valve, even though they were backed all the way out. Can't even slide the 0.002 feeler gauge under it. No play at all. We tried turning the engine- it moves about 12 degrees in either direction. One direction frees the #3 intake a bit, but the #2 exhaust never frees at all. At the end of the free play, the engine locks.

No fear! If you matched the notch on the cam to the TDC mark on the crank shaft as per the manual, you can't be wrong.
At TDC, one halve of the valves are being pushed down by the cam. So it's normal that you do not have free play in them even if you backed the adjustment screws all the way out. Remember when you torqued the valve cover's screws? You should have felt the resistance of those valves' springs that are just opening/closing now.
The manual basically says to adjust those valves of which the corresponding cam lobes point down (at an angle less than 90°)

As Dave pointed out, the cam shaft turns at half the speed of the crank shaft, so at #1 TDC, it can be in one of two positions.

Let's assume, that cylinder #1 is at the end of the compression stroke.

The situation is as follows:
(TDC= Top Dead Center, BDC = Bottom Dead Center)
Cyl #1 TDC: End of compression stroke. Both valves closed (free play)
Cyl #2 BDC: End of intake stroke. Exhaust closed, Intake closing
Cyl #3 BDC: Beginning of exhaust stroke. Exhaust opening, Intake closed
Cyl #4 TDC: Beginning of intake stroke. Exhaust closing, Intake opening

Now, if you turn the crank shaft 360° the situation changes to:

Cyl #1 TDC: Beginning of intake stroke. Exhaust valve closing, Intake opening
Cyl #2 BDC: Beginning of exhaust stroke. Exhaust opening, Intake closed
Cyl #3 BDC: End of intake stroke. Exhaust closed, Intake closing
Cyl #4 TDC: End of compression stroke. Both valves closed (free play)

The rockers of the opening and closing valves should not have any or only very little free play with the adjustment screws backed out, while the ones which are closed should be free and ready to be adjusted.
Your description indicates that the cam / crank is in position 2 now (#1 valves overlapping)

Quote
At the end of the free play, the engine locks.
Please explain. Do you feel a stop, or do you just feel a resistance?
1976 CB550F

Offline Frostyboy

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We tried turning the engine- it moves about 12 degrees in either direction. One direction frees the #3 intake a bit, but the #2 exhaust never frees at all. At the end of the free play, the engine locks.

You've gone into great detail with every step Dusty, but did I miss where you actually set the cam chain tension? When you say the engine locks, I wonder if you are simply picking up the slack in the chain.
Remember you have to have the crank 15ºATDC to set the tensioner.
Last year I joined a support group for procrastinators.
We haven't met yet.
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