Author Topic: cafe: relocate electronics to under the seat, or leave them?  (Read 7376 times)

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Offline jason41987

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cafe: relocate electronics to under the seat, or leave them?
« on: October 29, 2012, 10:35:24 am »
since i am rebuilding this old bike as a cafe, and rebuilding the electrical system im faced with a decision right now to either relocate the battery, regulator, solenoids, etc under the cowl of a cafe seat to open up the sides of the bike, an aesthetic feature ive grown to like or to leave them where they are with side covers

obviously, the side covers would be the easiest way to go, but i do like the open look, however, im not sure what the procedure is to relocate them under the seat, i know an AGM or gel type battery is necessary, and since im intending to run this on the kickstarter only, i dont even need that large of a battery, so i dont think space would be much of an issue

the cafe seats i see are just a flat pan, open on the bottom, so, are these seat pans placed directly on the frame, with a shelf underneath to sit the electronics, or are these seats typically placed on top of a metal seat pan with the electronics inside the assembly?

and lastly, im curious as to what possible downsides there are besides space constraints with moving these components to underneath a seat cowl?... if theres some major downfall to this, i might consider not doing it, if there isnt, then i probably will once i figure out how exactly the battery and other electronics are typically mounted

Offline luap

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Re: cafe: relocate electronics to under the seat, or leave them?
« Reply #1 on: October 29, 2012, 10:52:43 am »
kick only doesnt need a starter silenoid relay. you would have regulator rectifier an battery an if you want to clean it up a little more buy a single start regulator/rectifier combo
In your last post of building your own harness just cut the new wires to length, build a pan to hold everything. The cowls are sat ontop/over the electronics an you will need to make mounting points for the cowl/seat combo
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Offline matt mattison

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Re: cafe: relocate electronics to under the seat, or leave them?
« Reply #2 on: October 29, 2012, 11:22:31 am »
The rectifier needs sufficient air flow because it gets warm. So keep that in mind if you move it.
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Offline jason41987

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Re: cafe: relocate electronics to under the seat, or leave them?
« Reply #3 on: October 29, 2012, 11:57:04 am »
I should drill some holes underneath the pan to mount the electronics on for regular airflow

Offline Jiminy Indy

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Re: cafe: relocate electronics to under the seat, or leave them?
« Reply #4 on: October 29, 2012, 12:32:15 pm »
Well it sounds like you've made up your mind to relocate the electronics, etc. but IMO a cafe bike should remain as close to stock as possible but "souped up" by taking off unnecessary stuff to make it go faster - nothing too radical. I like some of the cafe style bikes out there but if it was me and you had good condition side covers Idl leave them and have a "wolf in sheep's clothing" to dust the sport bike riders.

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Offline bjbuchanan

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Re: cafe: relocate electronics to under the seat, or leave them?
« Reply #5 on: October 29, 2012, 01:01:29 pm »
I think the empty triangle looks weird on these bikes. Looks like you forgot some stuff. Cleaner and simpler is nice and an easier packaging deal
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Offline jason41987

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Re: cafe: relocate electronics to under the seat, or leave them?
« Reply #6 on: October 29, 2012, 02:05:37 pm »
my bike doesnt have side covers, if i were to go that route id have to aquire a set.. though i did see this one cafe build where the builder installed some kind of frame mounted brackets to hold a flat triangle-shaped piece of fiberglass over the hole... looked nice, hard to explain it

i found a photograph of a bike that looks very similar to the idea i had for mine.. reason is it uses similar colors to mine, but i was picturing mine more with a titanium/light brown colored frame with gun metal gray tank and seat... but these colors look close enough to get an idea of what i was imagining...  was going to have the tail section contain a recess for a cateye tail light

http://bikerscafeblog.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/07/ER7.jpg

if i go with mounting the electronics under the seat, i will have to spend a bit of time making sure everything fit on there while getting the seat to fit with it too, so i was planning to wait until after i rebuilt the rest of the bike before i did the wiring, and before i fit the tail section on

i dont know why the open side look appeals to me, i guess it gives it more of a look of simplicity, although it may in fact be less simple to put together... it just has a sort of utilitarian look to it which appeals to me... it just highlights just how little there is needed on the bike to actually make it work by showing off that emptiness

also, to go with the classic, simple look, ive also decided to sell the alloys that came with mine, and rebuild the spoked wheels which arent simpler, but they hang on to that classic look since you dont really see them used on bikes anymore

Offline jason41987

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Re: cafe: relocate electronics to under the seat, or leave them?
« Reply #7 on: October 29, 2012, 02:08:29 pm »
anyway... about the seat itself.... so i mount a platform on the rear of the frame, and secure the battery and other electrical components to this platform which is secured to the frame... and then for the seat/tail section i secure this using the original hinges on the frame so that i can lift the tail/seat section up and access the electricals underneath?

that seems the most useful way to do it... and if i decide to go this route, what hardware would i need to mount a fiberglass cafe seat/tail to the original hinges on the frame?

Offline afkrejci90

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Re: cafe: relocate electronics to under the seat, or leave them?
« Reply #8 on: October 29, 2012, 02:13:28 pm »
I think the empty triangle looks weird on these bikes. Looks like you forgot some stuff. Cleaner and simpler is nice and an easier packaging deal
I agree, if you move the electronics at least get some side covers for it, the bike doesn't look complete otherwise.
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Offline aperry

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Re: cafe: relocate electronics to under the seat, or leave them?
« Reply #9 on: October 29, 2012, 02:32:33 pm »
I love the open triangle.  Even on a 750 where the oil tank prevents it from being "truly" open.  I guess it's just a personal opinion.  However I am not sure why someone would go through all the trouble of relocating the electrical components if they're planning to run with side covers anyway.

I relocated my electrical components under the seat cowl and everything worked out great.  I extended the harness with connectors, but this winter I'll probably solder it all together and clean up the lengths a little better.  Mine is also kickstart only right now, which means I got rid of the solenoid and the starter safety unit.  I pretty much did exactly what the OP described except the seat is screwed onto the frame (no hinge).   

That pic linked above is one that I had noticed last year and I have it (and several others) printed and hanging on the wall for inspiration.

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Offline jason41987

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Re: cafe: relocate electronics to under the seat, or leave them?
« Reply #10 on: October 29, 2012, 03:12:50 pm »
aperry, did you drill the frame to screw the seat into the frame, or did you mount a bracket first?.. i guess if you got some collars you could screw to clamp onto the frame with a flat surface on top you could drill and tap, or even fiberglass the top piece to teh seat pan

i like the idea of reusing the hinge if i can.. so i can flip it up quick and easy to access the electronics if i need to.. but ill consider all options for mounting the seat

howd you mount the electronics? did you put a piece of sheet metal or some other surface down on top of the frame under the seat?

Offline jason41987

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Re: cafe: relocate electronics to under the seat, or leave them?
« Reply #11 on: October 29, 2012, 03:22:09 pm »
also.. i notice the bike has some sort of splash guard installed, keeps rocks and mud off the air filters and caburetors and the top part of it is mounted to a hoop on the rear of the frame.. do you cut this off and remove the splash guard?  or do you leave these parts on?..

this raises a concern though... as the open style has the splash guard removed.. and im wondering what kind of effect that would have on the bike itself... if mud gets stuck to the tire it would splash all over the bottom of the bike, not to mention rain, rocks.. so im not sure how i feel about not having a splash guard, and im not sure theres any way to keep it with the open triangle.. is there?

Offline aperry

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Re: cafe: relocate electronics to under the seat, or leave them?
« Reply #12 on: October 29, 2012, 03:27:59 pm »
I did not drill the frame, but that was recommended by the seat manufacturer (Roc City Cafe, in my case).  I used the mounting screw holes for the battery tray.  I put a 1" thick rubber stopper between the screw hole and the bottom of the fiberglass seat and I have the seat mounted with two screws that go through the fiberglass seat (with big washer on top), through the rubber stopper, and into the battery tray screw holes.  I am sure some people would laugh at this solution, but it's been solid for me.  I had intended to use all four battery tray screw holes, but the curve of the seat cowl prevented me from using the rear holes.  I do have rubber stopped screwed (with counterbore) into the rear bracket screw holes to support the seat, but they're not screwed into the seat.

Over the winter I may build a stronger bracket.  But it's not very high on my list right now.  What I have seems to work quite well.

The electronics were mounted similar to what you described.  I built a sheetmetal platform that is welded directly to the frame.  The battery is hold in place with brackets (welded to platform) and a rubber battery strap.  I replaced my regulator and rectifier with aftermarket replacements (search for thread on Ford regulators).  The regulator is strapped on top of battery.  The rectifier is mounted to the platform with screws. 

Hope his helps,
Aaron

CB750K3 with F1 frame/swingarm

Offline jason41987

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Re: cafe: relocate electronics to under the seat, or leave them?
« Reply #13 on: October 29, 2012, 03:46:56 pm »
hmm, id really like to reuse the hinge for the seat pan and cowl, because it just seems so much simpler to be able to unlatch the seat, lift it up, and be able to access the electronics... the lock to lock the seat.. was that part of the frame? or part of the seat?.. if its part of the frame then i think i still have that part and would only need to get a new key and be able to use the lock too

im sure i could figure out a means to mount a platform on the back of the frame without having to cut or weld anything.. but ill probably have to remove that splash guard to do it... so ill remove that splash guard, mount a platform under the cowl section of the seat, to the frame, then figure out some way to reuse teh original hinge and lock for the rest of the seat... and ill build the new wiring harness after i have this set up so i can be sure everything fits just right

i can figure out some kind of tube/pipe clamp setup to hold the rear platform on.. and probably even use some of these to mount a shield to replace the splash guard

Offline jason41987

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Re: cafe: relocate electronics to under the seat, or leave them?
« Reply #14 on: October 29, 2012, 03:49:26 pm »
check these out..

http://www.ebay.com/itm/1-1-Hole-Dia-Single-Port-Lean-Tube-Connector-Pipe-Clamp-Black-/140876398796?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item20cce340cc

what if i got smaller versions of those that i could clamp to the frame rails, and use teh extra hole on top to bolt the battery platform to the frame without welding?... get a couple more and i can clamp these to the backside of the triangle opening to hold a flat piece of ABS for a splash guard

Offline aperry

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Re: cafe: relocate electronics to under the seat, or leave them?
« Reply #15 on: October 29, 2012, 03:50:01 pm »
also.. i notice the bike has some sort of splash guard installed, keeps rocks and mud off the air filters and caburetors and the top part of it is mounted to a hoop on the rear of the frame.. do you cut this off and remove the splash guard?  or do you leave these parts on?..

this raises a concern though... as the open style has the splash guard removed.. and im wondering what kind of effect that would have on the bike itself... if mud gets stuck to the tire it would splash all over the bottom of the bike, not to mention rain, rocks.. so im not sure how i feel about not having a splash guard, and im not sure theres any way to keep it with the open triangle.. is there?

Yeah, I think that's a concern.  My ideal solution is to build a custom oil tank that would mount in the rear of the "triangle" in such a way that it would serve as a mud guard for the carbs/filters.  Mine's a 750.  I think yours is a 550, so no oil tank! (lucky you)

Right now my bike gets pretty dirty when it's wet.  Even worse, I'm currently running velocity stacks with screen filters.  This is something I plan to spend some time on over the winter (better air filtering, possibly some kind of mud guard).
CB750K3 with F1 frame/swingarm

Offline jason41987

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Re: cafe: relocate electronics to under the seat, or leave them?
« Reply #16 on: October 29, 2012, 03:56:28 pm »
maybe you could use some kind of bracket mounted to the frame rails you could mount a flat piece in the back to to act as a splash guard like i was suggesting?... and yeah, mines a 550, i had to search through so many CB750s during my search till i found a 550... i had a CX500 before and i thought it was too heavy for as much daily commuting as i did (CX500s are so obviously touring bikes) so i was specifically targeting something around 400lbs this time... and its like handling a bicycle in terms of weight compared to my old cx500 (which weighs the same as a CB750)

Offline aperry

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Re: cafe: relocate electronics to under the seat, or leave them?
« Reply #17 on: October 29, 2012, 03:57:41 pm »
check these out..

http://www.ebay.com/itm/1-1-Hole-Dia-Single-Port-Lean-Tube-Connector-Pipe-Clamp-Black-/140876398796?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item20cce340cc

what if i got smaller versions of those that i could clamp to the frame rails, and use teh extra hole on top to bolt the battery platform to the frame without welding?... get a couple more and i can clamp these to the backside of the triangle opening to hold a flat piece of ABS for a splash guard

Yeah, I would think that could work. 

By the way, one thing I should mention.  Not sure if it's specific to the 750, but I have to keep my shocks on the stiffest setting, otherwise I've noticed the rear tire can make contact with the underside of the battery platform (if the shocks are depressed far enough).  You might want to take some measurements to ensure you won't have this problem.  Another thing I may work on this winter :)
CB750K3 with F1 frame/swingarm

Offline aperry

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Re: cafe: relocate electronics to under the seat, or leave them?
« Reply #18 on: October 29, 2012, 04:00:11 pm »
maybe you could use some kind of bracket mounted to the frame rails you could mount a flat piece in the back to to act as a splash guard like i was suggesting?... and yeah, mines a 550, i had to search through so many CB750s during my search till i found a 550... i had a CX500 before and i thought it was too heavy for as much daily commuting as i did (CX500s are so obviously touring bikes) so i was specifically targeting something around 400lbs this time... and its like handling a bicycle in terms of weight compared to my old cx500 (which weighs the same as a CB750)

Yeah, in fact the bracket you linked to above would probably do the trick.  I kind of like having that area open, but I may need to go that route.
CB750K3 with F1 frame/swingarm

Offline lrutt

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Re: cafe: relocate electronics to under the seat, or leave them?
« Reply #19 on: October 29, 2012, 04:02:54 pm »
I've always been a fan of hiding all the electrics. But lately I've been thinking of creating a really nicely detailed electrical panel with perfectly routed, labeled, and terminated wires all dressed out real nice. Make it look really really professional. That can easily be as appealing as hiding it all and look very impressive.
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Offline jason41987

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Re: cafe: relocate electronics to under the seat, or leave them?
« Reply #20 on: October 29, 2012, 05:32:08 pm »
id be interested in seeing how that electrical panel comes out

Offline andrewk

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Re: cafe: relocate electronics to under the seat, or leave them?
« Reply #21 on: October 30, 2012, 10:22:34 am »
Here's one I did for someone not too long ago, it's a CB360.



Aluminum plate was made in a break, 360's have a bolt on rear hoop, so the holes for that were utilized to bolt the plate on, and the hoop was flipped and welded before powdercoat (see the turnsignal brackets pointing up? Also, his decision, not mine.)

That's a ballistic evo2 4 cell battery.  Runs the electric start, but only until it gets cold out.  Otherwise it's a good battery for the size- 8Ah (lead equivalent) so it can actually handle the charging system for extended periods, but it's probably not good for long trips.   They make bigger batteries, though.

This is what covers up the panel- it bolts on from below.



And, for what it's worth, a smaller tail would still fit over this electric panel- all that stuff would fit under the tail on that 550 you posted as "inspiration."

Regarding the splash guard, you can see clearly that this one doesn't have one, but I wouldn't recommend it, for all the reasons you are already thinking about.  Clean up the stock plastic, paint it, or whatever, but I'd keep it around if you plan on riding the thing in varied weather.  Leaving it out will just cover the carbs and the back of the engine in grime- shorter air filter life, potential of stalling it out in the rain when water from the tire soaks the filters, etc.  Show bikes are sweet and all, but they're full of big compromises in the name of vanity.

Also, I just looked at the pics of your bike, and you know you have a 1977-1982 750 comstar front end there, right?  Just FYI for when you start sourcing parts.  A stock 750k wheel can probably be made to fit correctly, but keep in mind that the caliper mounts are different, and so are the rotor sizes between the two styles.

Offline Z-MO

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Re: cafe: relocate electronics to under the seat, or leave them?
« Reply #22 on: October 30, 2012, 03:51:12 pm »
I am also planning to relocate my electrics under the cowl.  I like the open triangle and am also concerned about the effects of removing the splash guard.  I have a 750 so I will also have to deal with the oil tank issue.  So I am planning to build a fender mount oil tank like this:

http://benjiescaferacer.com/oil-tank.php

Solves both problems.  The triangle isn't quite as open but it seems an efficient combination.
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Offline jason41987

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Re: cafe: relocate electronics to under the seat, or leave them?
« Reply #23 on: October 30, 2012, 04:02:23 pm »
more so than the splash guard splashing mud and rocks onto my air filters, and just causing a mess in such weather.. im actually quite concerned with the wheel travel scuffing the bottom of the bike... its making me think maybe i should just keep the original splash guard on... and thatll maintain the proper clearance for the rear wheel too solving both problems if i can just work around it.. and im sure if i thought long and hard enough on it i probably could work around it

Offline jason41987

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Re: cafe: relocate electronics to under the seat, or leave them?
« Reply #24 on: October 30, 2012, 11:04:56 pm »
yeah.. i think that since the splash guard on there now protects both from splashes onto the engine, as well as sets aside proper clearance for suspension travel, im going to keep the guard thats already on it and work out a means to work the electronics into the cowl... ill probably be able to do it.. but, i guess i wont know until i attempt it