Author Topic: cb550 not keeping a good charge, any ideas?  (Read 3290 times)

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Offline dergs713

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cb550 not keeping a good charge, any ideas?
« on: February 27, 2013, 06:09:13 pm »
My cb550 is not keeping a steady charge.  I feel there is a weak link in my charging system.  While the bike is running it does not read 13-14.00volts. If I were to disconnect the ground at an idle, the bike dies.  I usually have about 5hrs of ridding with minimal use of lights.  with lights, an hr or two less.  I would like to narrow down what is working against me.  Any thing would help, thanks.
Matt   

Offline TwoTired

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Re: cb550 not keeping a good charge, any ideas?
« Reply #1 on: February 27, 2013, 06:13:40 pm »
What is the configuration of your bike?  Totally stock?  Or, electrical changes?

Charging system methodical verification checks, CB750, CB550, CB500, CB400, and CB350.

Begin with problem verification and characterization with recorded data.
A -- Fully charge a known good battery.  Let it rest for 2 hours, off the charger, and measure the battery voltage.  (Target is 12.6-12.8V.)
B -- Start the bike and measure the battery voltage at idle, 2000, 3000, 4000, and 5000 rpm.
C -- Repeat the measurements of B with lighting off.

The above tests identify charging system success, failure, or degree of "faulty".  The success voltages are listed in the Shop manual.

D -- Assuming the above indicates faulty, do check the RECTIFIER diodes with a diode tester or ohmmeter capable of testing diodes and uses more than .7 volts to make the test(s).
Of the twelve test made in D, six must read low ohms and six must read very high ohms.

E- assuming no faults were found in D,  Measure the white and green wires disconnected from the REGULATOR.  CB750s should 6.8 ohms - ish,  CB550s/350s/ and 400s should read 4.9 ohms- ish.

F- If there are no bullet holes or road rash/divots on the alternator case, the stator is probably good.  But, you can check for yellow to yellow continuity (.35 ohms) among all the wires, and that no yellow wire has continuity to the engine case.

G- Assuming no faults found in D, E, and F, measure the disconnected terminals of the REGULATOR.  The black and white terminals should measure zero ohms (subtract meter error if there is any).  Higher than Zero ohms, indicates internal contact contamination needing cleaning and attention per shop manual.

H - Assuming D, E, F, and G have not found faults. We can verify all the of the charging system minus the regulator is functioning correctly, by using a temporary jumper to connect the disconnected white wire (normally attached to the REGULATOR) and connecting the White directly to the the battery POS terminal.  Repeat the B and C tests.  However, if at any time the battery voltage rises above 15V, stop the test.  Such an indication would prove the charging system capable of maintaining a known good battery.  If this test never achieves 15V, then there is a wire/connector issue in either the ground path leading back to the battery NEG terminal, a wiring/ connector issue withe the rectifier RED path to the battery POS terminal, or you made a mistake in D through G.

I - (not used, can be confused with L)

J -  The only parts that remain to prove or expose are the REGULATOR (in active mode) and the electrical path between the battery POS terminal and the black wire that connects to the REGULATOR.

K - Lying to and starving the regulator
The regulator can only do its job correctly if it gets a proper voltage report of true battery voltage status.  The Vreg monitors the Black wire for this status.  Measuring the voltage lost between the Battery terminals and the Vreg connections identifies problems that are not really the charging system's fault.
Two connection paths must be checked, the Battery POS terminal to the Black wire connection at the VReg, and the Battery NEG terminal to the Green wire connection to the Vreg.  A volt meter can measure these losses directly by placing a probe between the two identified points, Black path and then the green path.  The numbers are summed and the error seen by the Vreg quantified.  Anything over .5V loss is cause for concern and anything over 1V is a certain issue to be corrected.  Each connector, terminal, fuse clip, or switch in the pathway can cause voltage reporting loss.

The regulator also passes the received voltage on to to the Alternator field coil to create a magnetic field within the alternator,  The voltage level determines the strength of the magnetic field and the maximum output capability of the alternator.  Therefore, starving  the Vreg of true battery voltage leads to reduced max output capability of the alternator.

L - regulator operation/verification.
  The Vreg sends voltage to the alternator field in response to measured voltage which is battery state of charge.  Any voltage at the battery of less than 13.5V sends full black wire voltage to the alternator's white wire.  The alternator output will vary with RPM, even if "told" to produce max power by the Vreg.  If the alternator has enough RPM to overcome system load, any excess power is routed to the battery which will raise the battery voltage (slowly if depleted and rapidly if nearly full).   When the battery reaches 14.5V, the regulator reduces the voltage to the alternator, reducing output strength and preventing battery overcharge.  If the battery exceeds 14.7V, the regulator clamps the alternator field coil power to zero (0V), effective shutting off the alternator.

Because, there is electrical load from the system, an alternator that is not producing power allows the battery to deplete and the voltage falls.  The Vreg responds by turning the alternator back on in accordance with battery state/ charge level.

The Vreg state changes can be monitored/verified by observing the battery voltage state, and the White wire to the alternator field.  (Two meters are handy for this.)  The "trip" voltages can be adjusted with the adjust screw, while changing engine RPM and electrical load that the bike presents to the battery/charging system to "make" the battery reach the voltage levels need for the set trip points.  IE. with load reduced (lighting off) and the engine above 2500 RPM, a charged battery will attain 14.5 V.  Anything above that and the adjust screw needs to be backed out to keep the battery safe from harm.
The shop manual outlines bench set up mechanical adjustments that should be performed on unknown or tampered units.  These should be resolved before final trip point adjust tuning.

Note that while the system is working, the Vreg can change states rapidly before your very eyes., changing 5 times or more while you blink.  Therefore, you may have to mentally average values measured on the White wire if your selected meter doesn't do that for you.









Lloyd... (SOHC4 #11 Original Mail List)
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Offline dergs713

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Re: cb550 not keeping a good charge, any ideas?
« Reply #2 on: February 27, 2013, 06:23:32 pm »
Well it was stock and having the same issues...  I decided to minimize the components on the bike and run a different headlight. (lets just say it turned into a chopper...lol)  It is working better but still not perfect. 
Matt

Offline TwoTired

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Re: cb550 not keeping a good charge, any ideas?
« Reply #3 on: February 27, 2013, 06:26:23 pm »
Do you have an accurate wire diagram for your bike?  Or, is it totally "freeform".

Pretty hard to diagnose (especially remotely) an electrical device when the wire connection map is absent.
Lloyd... (SOHC4 #11 Original Mail List)
72 500, 74 550, 75 550K, 75 550F, 76 550F, 77 550F X2, 78 550K, 77 750F X2, 78 750F, 79CX500, 85 700SC, GL1100

Those that learn from history are doomed to repeat it by those that don't learn from history.

bollingball

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Re: cb550 not keeping a good charge, any ideas?
« Reply #4 on: February 27, 2013, 07:08:25 pm »
My cb550 is not keeping a steady charge.  I feel there is a weak link in my charging system.  While the bike is running it does not read 13-14.00volts. If I were to disconnect the ground at an idle, the bike dies.  I usually have about 5hrs of ridding with minimal use of lights.  with lights, an hr or two less.  I would like to narrow down what is working against me.  Any thing would help, thanks.
Matt

At what RPMs?? The reading will change with the RPMs  Go to FAQ tons of stuff about your issue. TT knows more about this on 550s than most. So #1 listen to what he says #2 don't piss him off ;D ;D
Ken

Offline dergs713

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Re: cb550 not keeping a good charge, any ideas?
« Reply #5 on: February 27, 2013, 07:19:04 pm »
I followed this cb chopper diagram I found on the internet and it worked fine, took off the blinkers, fuse box, etc.  Just having the same issue.  I followed my schematic inside the manual as well.  Everything is linked together just as stated besides the removed components.  looks like im going to have to test the pieces to the puzzle... rectifier, regulator, etc...
Matt

Offline DJ_AX

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Re: cb550 not keeping a good charge, any ideas?
« Reply #6 on: February 27, 2013, 07:21:27 pm »
I had a similar problem...
I did all of the above.
After a little bit .. I got it.
The cause turned out to be my light switch...
I cleaned all contacts well... fixed it. :)
~ Vincent . . . '75 CB750 K5 . . . '97 BMW r1100rt . . . had; '75 CB550 K1 (sold) . . .  '73 CB350G (gifted) HELL YEAH!
Disclaimer: I could be wrong. :)

Offline dergs713

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Re: cb550 not keeping a good charge, any ideas?
« Reply #7 on: February 27, 2013, 07:26:06 pm »
I will have to test it at the different rpms tomorrow, dont need the cops knocking at my door...now 930 here.lol

I was told it was suppose to read 14.00volts at idle..? I guess that was wrong info..?

Am i correct about it being bad to have the bike quit when the ground is taken off...?  the same source told me that.  They said the bike should keep it running, and if the bikes died due to there not having a ground connected, it threw up a red flag..

Matt

Offline dergs713

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Re: cb550 not keeping a good charge, any ideas?
« Reply #8 on: February 27, 2013, 07:28:23 pm »
DJ, I replaced the light with a new switch and all the wires, tried another spare light as well, and same issue.  Hopefully I will be able to narrow this down.  Thanks all
MAtt

Offline TwoTired

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Re: cb550 not keeping a good charge, any ideas?
« Reply #9 on: February 27, 2013, 10:52:32 pm »
Below is a charging chart right out of the shop manual.  Note the voltage reading vs RPM.  Because the alternator doesn't make full power until it is spun up, the 550 usually doesn't make enough power to charge the battery at idle speed.  In fact, power is drawn out of the battery to supplement the electrical demand that the alternator can't supply.  If you remove the battery connection at idle, the bike's power demand lowers the voltage so much that the coils cannot make spark, and the engine dies.

You should be aware that the magnetic field needed for the alternator to function, is an electromagnet on the SOHC4, rather than a permanent magnet found on other bikes.  All alternators need a magnetic field to convert rotational energy into electrical force.  But, with low or no power to the alternator field (electromagnet), there is not sufficient magnetic force to generate output power.   The battery supplies power to the alternator to get it started making power.  And, as long as less power is drawn out than made by the alternator, the system is self sustaining.  But, at low RPM the alternator can only make about 50 watts, which is about what the stock coils, ignition, and alternator field coil consume.  Add anything else to the electrical drain and the alternator is overcome, voltage falls, and spark stops.

Since I don't know details about your custom bike, all I can explain is what the stock bike does with stock components.  Your bike may behave a bit differently.

Cheers,
Lloyd... (SOHC4 #11 Original Mail List)
72 500, 74 550, 75 550K, 75 550F, 76 550F, 77 550F X2, 78 550K, 77 750F X2, 78 750F, 79CX500, 85 700SC, GL1100

Those that learn from history are doomed to repeat it by those that don't learn from history.

Offline dergs713

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Re: cb550 not keeping a good charge, any ideas?
« Reply #10 on: March 03, 2013, 05:48:21 pm »
Thanks to all!

Twotired, I think I happen to back myself into a corner with this bike.  My system includes a dyna-s and 5ohm coils, an aftermarket headlight that pulls prob 40watts +. I have a feeling that this is whats hurting me while ridding.  is there any tricks that I could pull off to keep this working a little better? I want to be able to ride this thing without worrying when I will die...

I've seen many bikes similar to my build and never heard of them having draw problems.  I feel that my batt is worn as well, from the constant up and down and repeated charges.

I will be able to test the volts with the variable rpms tomorrow now that im back in town.  I will keep you posted  Thanks again!

Matt

Offline dergs713

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Re: cb550 not keeping a good charge, any ideas?
« Reply #11 on: April 02, 2013, 03:56:25 pm »
Well reopening this post. Still having issues w the charging of my bike. At any rpm measuring volts there is about a 00.01 jump in volts. Otherwise, 99.99% is a steady decrease in volts.... I have a spare motor laying around w an electrical loom attached. I tried the rectifier on my bike..nothing, I tried the regulator...nothing, then tried them both same issue.

Two tired, I am trying to follow your steps as best as I can checking ohms but I guess I am not  it correctly. I am getting totally different number readings out of my meter than yours posted. To test ohms you do not need any power supply right we are just testing resistance...? And what wires am I placing my probes.  I check one on green for all the yellows one on red/ white with all the yellows yellow to yellow etc.

Rectifier test

Green to yellow on all I am reading  .5
Green to red/white  .91

Regulator test
Black to green .022
Black to white .00
White to black .00
White to green .022
Green to white .022
Green to black .22

I feel stupid listing all of this bc I know half of it is wrong if not all of it. But this is what I have. Anything will help, I'm so sick of this electrical stuff...
Matt



 green to red/white I'm at  .91.

Offline dergs713

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Re: cb550 not keeping a good charge, any ideas?
« Reply #12 on: April 02, 2013, 03:58:28 pm »
The last green to white on the above post at the bottom was a double. Don't mean to confuse more than I have already.

Matt

Offline HondaMan

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Re: cb550 not keeping a good charge, any ideas?
« Reply #13 on: April 02, 2013, 05:41:31 pm »
Thanks to all!

Twotired, I think I happen to back myself into a corner with this bike.  My system includes a dyna-s and 5ohm coils, an aftermarket headlight that pulls prob 40watts +. I have a feeling that this is whats hurting me while ridding.  is there any tricks that I could pull off to keep this working a little better? I want to be able to ride this thing without worrying when I will die...

I've seen many bikes similar to my build and never heard of them having draw problems.  I feel that my batt is worn as well, from the constant up and down and repeated charges.

I will be able to test the volts with the variable rpms tomorrow now that im back in town.  I will keep you posted  Thanks again!

Matt

You'll be kind of "up against it" with the Dyna S current draw, which is about 1.1 amps extra with the 5 ohm coils. That's just about all the current the 550 alternator makes.

One quick-and-dirty test that will tell you if the alternator is charging at all: disconnect the Black and White wires from the voltage regulator and connect them together. Fire up the bike and see if the battery shows it is charging at 4500 RPM or more. The voltage across the battery should start rising after about 10-15 seconds at 4500 RPM, if it is working at all. If the voltage keeps falling, then either the field coil or the alternator may not be connected, or burnt open. Either one can be checked with an ohmmeter, per TT's notes above.

I have seen the big white connector between the engine and the rectifer have burnt-in-two connectors inside on the 550. Maybe pull that gizmo open and check all those blades and receptacles in there?
See SOHC4shop@gmail.com for info about the gadgets I make for these bikes.

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Offline dergs713

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Re: cb550 not keeping a good charge, any ideas?
« Reply #14 on: April 02, 2013, 06:12:18 pm »
Thanks honda man for the suggestion, I will try this out. I've just heard so many ppl using these dynas and coils I didn't think there would be such an issue. I guess I was blind to that one.
Matt

Offline Duanob

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Re: cb550 not keeping a good charge, any ideas?
« Reply #15 on: April 03, 2013, 12:40:42 pm »
With a perfectly good operating charging system you shouldn't have a problem with all the things you listed. However......

Here is a good FAQ that I used to find a couple of fried main wires. Once replaced, my charging system has worked perfectly. Of course this was after spending $100 on new rectifier and Vreg that i didn't need.

http://www.oregonmotorcycleparts.com/FAQ.html
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Offline flybox1

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Re: cb550 not keeping a good charge, any ideas?
« Reply #16 on: April 03, 2013, 12:54:54 pm »
With a perfectly good operating charging system you shouldn't have a problem with all the things you listed. However......

Here is a good FAQ that I used to find a couple of fried main wires. Once replaced, my charging system has worked perfectly. Of course this was after spending $100 on new rectifier and Vreg that i didn't need.

http://www.oregonmotorcycleparts.com/FAQ.html
thats an expensive FAQ/Tutorial  :P ;D
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Offline Duanob

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Re: cb550 not keeping a good charge, any ideas?
« Reply #17 on: April 03, 2013, 01:38:06 pm »
With a perfectly good operating charging system you shouldn't have a problem with all the things you listed. However......

Here is a good FAQ that I used to find a couple of fried main wires. Once replaced, my charging system has worked perfectly. Of course this was after spending $100 on new rectifier and Vreg that i didn't need.

http://www.oregonmotorcycleparts.com/FAQ.html
thats an expensive FAQ/Tutorial  :P ;D

Experience is something you get....right after you need it  :o
"Just because you flush a butt-load of money down the toilet, doesn't make the toilet worth more",  My Step-Father the Unknown Poet

1974 CB360T
1976 CB550K2 Resurrected
1976 CB550F2 Barn Find
1979 CX500 Delux "HONDA-GUZZI"
2007 Moto Guzzi Breva 750ie
2015 BMW F700GS

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Offline cameron

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Re: cb550 not keeping a good charge, any ideas?
« Reply #18 on: April 03, 2013, 02:58:05 pm »
Thanks to all!
 is there any tricks that I could pull off to keep this working a little better? I want to be able to ride this thing without worrying when I will die...
  I feel that my batt is worn as well, from the constant up and down and repeated charges.


I have said it before.. but the best thing I ever did for my bike electrically was put in a Scorpion AGM battery.
Dyna ignition, stock coils and lights.
http://www.batterystuff.com/powersports-batteries/sYT12C.html

Seriously.. best upgrade ever. Better than Pods :)
YOu might still have too much draw for your alternator.. but I think it will help.
1976 CB550F

Offline dergs713

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Re: cb550 not keeping a good charge, any ideas?
« Reply #19 on: April 03, 2013, 04:00:34 pm »
Thanks to everyone. I figured it out!!!!:) it was the field coil. Swapped it out and back in business !!!!!! Can't thank you guys enoughy!!
Matt