Topic: making custom oil lines for honda cb750?

[Ricky_Racer]

Thanks, PeWe. Your ongoing support is appreciated. Ride well! RR

[Ricky_Racer]

BTW, if anyone on the board has old oil lines (with undamaged steel nuts) they want to sell or to use as credit against the purchase of a set of these new lines, please PM me. If you have a quantity, we'll even take multiple sets as full payment for our products. Thanks everyone!  RR

[PeWe]

Thanks, PeWe. Your ongoing support is appreciated. Ride well! RR

I'm happy to write about good parts for my CB750 that other might have use for too.

All CB four owners should be very grateful for all support from CCC, similar companies and all other sellers providing NOS parts or new replicas that can be found very easy nowadays. Tuning parts that have got a restart together with support on this forum or other sites.

The CB 750 should be rather dead without that support. Nice that people can work with this and make some money on it so the fun from 30-40 years ago can start over again 

[70CB750]

RR with all due respect:

- Why oversized hose to make it as big as the old one?  You would not expect SS brake line to be the same OD as rubber brake line, or would you?
- One of the  things I like about the hoses I made is that they are actually smaller OD to make the installation easier.
- Removing old hose fittings and cutting the new hose - any mechanic with a hack saw can do that in 20 minutes.  I know, I have done it.
- Ferrules can be purchased, bead blasting is available everywhere.
- The only thing really complicated is the crimp, as long as you don't invest your time and make a proper jig.  But in small numbers - I don't know how much you sell at that price - but anything less than 10 hoses a day could be crimped by 4 points jaws of a lathe chuck.  These hoses operate at atmospheric pressure.

Soo, how many do you sell per year?  1000? 100?  10?

If you have a market, I am happy for you, but since you depend on buying old fittings to retrofit, I am inclined to believe that this is sort of short lived/planned manufacturing plan.

[Ricky_Racer]

Check! Four crimps. Thinner hose. Lightweight ferrules.

Thank you for your comments and suggestions. We appreciate your input and it will be given all appropriate consideration. Thanks again. RR

[70CB750]

LOL!  No offense, right?  All I am looking at here is an engineering problem.

Thinner hose/thicker hose.  Thicker hose is also the one you have in your garden, what matters is for how many psi is it rated and if it is strong enough to hold the pressure for the application.

Ditto for ferrules.

Crimp - I give you that, minimum six, it looks better, but makes no difference in function.

Check! Four crimps. Thinner hose. Lightweight ferrules.

Thank you for your comments and suggestions. We appreciate your input and it will be given all appropriate consideration. Thanks again. RR

[PeWe]

I was thinking about to cut my old oil lines and then use new oil hose and stainless clamps to put it together. Max $15US.
But I could imagine how cheap it should look like when I'm taking my bike back into the 70's with almost OEM look except improved engine, 4-1 and other classic tuning parts. I have done the rat bike years....

[Ricky_Racer]

Okay. I really do have to get some work done...

Look, 70CB750, making a high-quality, aesthetically pleasing set of these hoses isn't exactly an "engineering" issue; it's more of a logistics challenge. Our self-described "famous" cafe builder friend in Los Angeles makes them with the cheapest hose available and hose clamps. We choose how to create our products.  We considered and priced making these hoses the way you suggested and dismissed it as looking too "aftermarket" for a classic motorcycle. Do the other hoses work? Certainly. But you're right, with the low oil pressure in these hoses, garden hose would work as well. However, most decent builders might consider that a little too much "Redneck Engineering." LOL.

Since we're using our own monies and resources to make products, we get to choose what standard we use. Some customers appreciate the products we've done, and continue to develop. Some customers are more price-conscious and choose someone else's solution. We get it. However, our philosophy (beyond treating others the way we like to be treated) is that "The hay is always cheaper after it's gone through the horse." We could make more profit and have an easier way of it if we just resold cheap Chinese-made parts. We've chosen to not do that.

Better, cheaper and safer is always good as long as one doesn't compromise one's integrity or the integrity of a respected marque. We have set our standards high; for any number of reasons, others may choose otherwise.

So, my suggestion to you is to participate in creating products if you're really so inclined. Don't be a wannabe. There are a number of opportunities in this market. Just don't plan on selling any products in the volume of Big Macs. It's too select a market.

We really do seriously value suggestions (from anyone) for new products if there is a weakness or hole in the parts selection available to the SOHC CB750 enthusiast. If you can think of opportunities, by all means PM me with your ideas. We are working on as yet unannounced products now. However, they will be well thought out, well tested products that will be the best we can do without compromising our standards as long as creating the product makes fiscal sense. If we can't cover setup and production costs it's just not gonna happen. Irrespective, we will always choose to build to a standard rather than a price.

Okay. Enough for now. I really do have to run. Please let me know if you have something substantive to add that will benefit our fellow builders. I'm outta here for the day! RR

[70CB750]

You say it is not engineering issue, however you were not able to solve it locally and you have to ship it to Europe and back?   I think that's your problem, you did not solve the engineering part of it and that is why the product is overpriced.   Any die and tool factory could make you all the jigs you need to make it happen in USA. 

Good engineering uses the most efficient resources and adjusts the process to do so, if the hose ID is equal or bigger that the ID of the fitting, there is no gain using bigger hose the way you are doing, just for show.  You could as well cover it with SS netting the way wannabes dress their V8 engines and the result would be the same.

How many do you produce and sell?  Ballpark figure?

[754]

Here is my take on it.
.they dont look stock..but are close enough to run on a stock bike without looking out of place.

 But if they are going to cost in the area of 150, i think they could be real braided lines with anodized ends. It is not that hard to thread the ends of stock lower fittings and machine a seat. Then you can make any length ...like early 77/78...or chopper ,or custom..

 I think people worry too much about the fitting angles on oil coolers..some try to avoid 90 degree corners, yet every mainbearing is fed by a 90.

[PeWe]

http://www.ebay.com/itm/NEW-Honda-1969-1976-CB750K-Braided-Stainless-Oil-Hoses-Cafe-Racer-CR750-CB-750-/151100191396?pt=Motorcycles_Parts_Accessories&hash=item232e45f2a4

[Geeto67]

hey 70CB750,

If you really think the product is overpriced then put up or shut up and start making them for sale yourself with the compromises you feel are necessary to hit your price point.

I personally wouldn't buy them from you but there are plenty who value savings over quality - it is one of the reasons why walmart is so successful.

have you ever measured the oil pressure passing through those lines? I haven't either but I have had one rupture on me and it was a stream not a weep. Rubber hose under pressure has a tendency to expand regardless of the psi rating (the rating only covers rupture). the thicker the hose wall the less expansion you get. It isn't just that these have to hold pressure, they have to hold pressure consistently. I don't think the thin wall stuff is up to this. but clearly you do, and since you have so much faith in it, make a set sell them and let the market bear the issue. If you have no failure claims then you were right, if every piece comes back to you then you know you were wrong.

[70CB750]

LOL!

You better tell the hydraulic industry to stop using thin wall hoses.  That includes SS lines for breaks, since they are hydraulic too and nobody seems to have problems with it.

And yes, I made my own SS hoses, made them for under $40 and they are holding perfectly well for 8000 miles now.  I will be making another pair for the bike I am building.  Why?  Because I know what I am doing and I am able to do it and therefore don't have to pay shipping to Europe and back on a product like this one.

And let me get this straight, hose rated for rupture at 200psi will not hold consistently hold 2psi or how much is really in that hose?  I would rather doubt it, but you are entitled to your opinion of course.

I think I will measure the pressure just for the fun and challenge.

[Geeto67]

you mean the hydraulic industry that has teams of engineers who can sit around and accomidate for rubber expansion in their caluculations? that hydraulic industry?

Wanna know why nobody has problems with rubber brake lines? again automakes with teams of engineers figure out how much expansion is acceptable and build that into their calculations in figuring out hose requirements. But stainless braided lines have been proven as an improvement in braking power just based on the reduction in hose expansion. They only reason the automakers don't use it is it is cost prohibitive on all but the most top notch performance cars.

somehow you seem to think you are smarter than an entire industry of engineers, and personally I don't think you are.

there isn't 2psi of pressure in these hoses. There is likely 20-60 psi depending on which hose it is and how much suction the oil pump is putting out. All I am saying is that the hose expansion may bleed off more pressure due to expansion. It isn't unsafe but it isn't optimal. you are throwing out a lot of garbage here without measuring anything. Heck 38psi vs 40 psi might not even be out of oil requirements of this engine but you don't know anymore than anyone else, it could be. For all you know it could be safe - you just don't have any proof.

The Take aways you should get from all of this is:

- it's all talk until you do it. You feel you can make a better product for less then do it.

- it's all talk until you crunch the numbers. you and I can go back and forth about what works and what theory applies. I fully admit I have no data, and I am willing to admit you may be right or you may be wrong, but you are unwilling to admit you are wrong and have no proof to back it up.

[70CB750]

I will measure the pressure and get back to you.

As far as proof - 8000 miles on hoses I made without a leak is nothing? And it is not an act of a bravery of anything, if you do a search, you will find out that people used hose clamps to make oil lines for CB750 and it held well for many, many miles.

See the difference here is that I am talking about something I done with my hands for my motorcycle and used for year and half and you are just defending a commercial product.  That kind of shows who is throwing a garbage around.

Picture of my oil lines, the only thing I would improve on would be the crimping, this was just a quick and dirty DIY jig, next time I will find a shop to crimp it for me.

[Geeto67]

it's not nothing, it's also not everything. I'm pretty sure GM doesn't test a car by giving it to betty in accounting for two weeks and then call it good.

Here is what I can tell you from my experience of working on bikes as a hobbist for 20 years, mosty cb750s (20-30 of them between my father and I): most times when people think they can play with the oil system it results in damage. I have seen plenty of hard line 3/8th line bikes (triumph or HD oil tanks) with broken cams because the owners thought they needed a cool tank and 3/8s was good enough. And it didn't happen instantly, some times it took 10K miles, sometimes it took 20K. A friend of mine had 27K on his before the bearings seized. It is damage over time. In the absence of testing data the person who plays it safe is the person that gets closest to factory specifications. If that means thick walled hose from europe that is his choice to make.

You don't think RR is a guy in his garage? this isn't a commercial product like wonderbread or firestone tires, it's a guy in his garage leveraging his resources to make something people need. I have spoken to him several times in the past and found him to be every inch the hobbist as you or me. I highly doubt cb750 hoses are buying him a house in the hollywood hills. He made his choices, if you don't agree with him or those choices, then make your own product and bring it to market and let the market take care of the rest. If you want to deivate from the factory spec then run some tests, crunch some numbers, spend some time on R&D. Then you can back up what you are saying. But right now he's making a part, and you aren't. I have heard of someone else's hoses having quality issues, and I haven't heard of CCC's, but I have never heard of yours. I am one person in the marketplace but I am not the only one, if you feel you can have some influence on the market, let's see it. Otherwise  you aren't making your self look good trashing others.

[Geeto67]

I have 50K+ miles on a pair of stock near 40 year old hoses. It may be more but I bought my bike without a speedo. Call me when your garage made hoses have survived that. 

[70CB750]

Hmm, hose that fits over the original fitting would not be narrower than the original now, would be?  And i thought your high horse was pressure, but when you can not defend it anymore, your point is hose profile, your 20 years experience and your relationship with the seller.  Quite valid points, all of them.

If you bother to look at the thread, my main original point was, that I don't believe it is necessary to ship that stuff to Europe and BS about it on ebay as an advantage.  I do not believe that it is not possible to crimp to a specific hose in the USA.  Any decent tool and die factory/shop can make a jig to crimp a hose.

But maybe I have little on my hands to prove my point, but you have even less.

[Geeto67]

yeah but I can read. and if you read RR's posts it goes to Europe because it is more expensive to ship the hose here than have it crimped in europe. The crimping issue was a secondary point and I am sure you are right, he could probably have it crimped here. The hose in that specific spec was the limiting factor.

what's your end game here? You aren't gonna make your own hoses for sale, that much is clear. So you just want to be a dick to someone who has a better reputation than you in the hobby? People are buying his hose. For people like you or me or him it isn't necessary to buy premade hoses, but not everybody in this hobby is us - some people are just parts changers and they just want a part to buy. If you see a real flaw - empirically prove it with numbers or testing. otherwise you made your point and the only thing to do is forus to wait for you to put up.

[754]

You are taling about 3/8 hose..the hole in the fittings to engine is probably smaller than that..will go check later..

[Geeto67]

If you can't get enough volume to the oil pump, size of the feed holes in the engine doesn't matter

[tlbranth]

I'm really must limit this discussion, but your suggestion was tried. Have you checked the cost of shipping an oversized roll of braided stainless from Europe? Then the assembly costs are passed to the US. Heck, even finding someone in the US who has the correct jaws for the Honda-style crimping is problematic. Fortunately, we have friends and associates in Europe who can assist us in producing parts that are difficult to make in the US.

Seriously, if you think it's worth it to you, go for it. It's a lot easier to armchair a dream than to make it really happen.

Yeah, we make these and we go through the hoops to bring uncompromised quality parts to the CB750 enthusiast. Sorry that our chat has to be so short, but we're busy designing and manufacturing parts like our reproduction Giuliari seats (US, Europe, UK components), Read-Titan cafe tanks and seats (US), and a range of other CB750-centric products.

By all means, use your considerable expertise to join us in investing the time and financial resources to create new or better products for our fellow SOHC enthusiasts. Most will appreciate and support your efforts. Just don't expect to retire on the proceeds from this niche.    RR

You're not being sarcastic are you?

[Ricky_Racer]

Maybe just a little, Bro.    However, I do seriously encourage anyone who has the inclination to become more entrepreneurial. New ideas and new products help this hobby to live. Now, however, I've already dropped out of this thread. Too many other priorities right now. Ride well! RR

[scottly]

hey guys, i am getting ready to start another honda project (1975 cb750) and had a question about the oil lines on that. i would like to make an oil bag for it but i was wondering if anyone could point me on how to go about changing the oil lines. i haven't actually sat down to look at how they go into the engine but the other end that screw into the stock oil bag will definately not work for what i have in mind. are there any topics on this, looked around a bit but nothing readily came up. thank you in advance, Lou

Hi Lou! As this thread has become so polluted, I thought I would share some first hand information. First of all, there is absolutely no measurable pressure on the oil "bag" lines. (Geez, some people like to start arguments over nothing.  ) If I was building a custom oil tank, I would weld in spigots and use rubber hose. After cutting the ferrule off the stock motor fittings and removing the stock hose you will see the OD and ID of the size spigots required. I simply use 5/16" wide hose clamps. I personally don't care for braided stainless, and any it only adds unnecessary weight, IMHO, but my vision tends more towards performance than looks.

[70CB750]

yeah but I can read. and if you read RR's posts it goes to Europe because it is more expensive to ship the hose here than have it crimped in europe. The crimping issue was a secondary point and I am sure you are right, he could probably have it crimped here. The hose in that specific spec was the limiting factor.

Very good! Excellent!  Now when we established that the hoses could be crimped in USA, let's work on the next intellectual challenge:

If it is too expensive to ship the product once, how could it be cheaper to ship it twice?