Author Topic: Is my frame bent? Is my method flawed? Lot of pictures!!  (Read 15551 times)

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Offline albertaboy

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Is my frame bent? Is my method flawed? Lot of pictures!!
« on: November 15, 2013, 11:22:49 am »
Background
Bought a 1975 CB 750K in the fall of 2010 that came from British Columbia. It was a complete bike I planned to rebuild and cafe. I had taken it on a 20 min road test before laying out the cash. I had to get an "out of province" inspection which is an extensive road worthiness inspection here. I don't disagree with this law.
Certified Motorcycle Inspection facility #1
- Claimed they did a alignment test and found the bike out by 3/4 of an inch. I had never heard of such a thing but that's just me.  They couldn't say where or how exactly. Didn't put it on their lazer as the string test, they explained, is the first initial test and they don't go further unless the customer want to pay higher fees. It failed the inspection which cost me $190.00.  I wanted a second opinion as they estimated 8 hours and more at shop rates to find and fix it.
The alignment test method was never identified, I didn't think to question they're technique.
 
Certified Motorcycle inspection facility #2 (owner is known as the local CB750 expert I found out)
- This guy and his tech, that I described the above to, rolled on the floor laughing. Said " There's no way the bike can be out 3/4 of an inch".  They couldn't understand why facility 1 didnt put it on the lazer "Cause it only takes 5 minutes".  After a two week wait for them to get around to my bike, they came back and agreed the bike was out 3/4 of an inch. Also told me they didn't know where. Said they wanted to take my front end apart, again at hours of shop rate labor, defeating my intent to rebuild and learn on, I left FRUSTRATED and feeling conned. I went back a week later with my triple and forks and was told they were good.  I ended finding another frame with an Alberta title, stripped all the parts off my "bent" frame and stuffed it into the attic until today. Re-assembled the parts onto the new frame and got riding.

I don't want to scrap this frame so here's what I did. Not very scientific but it was my first test.
Flipped the frame on its back, leveled it, found center on the back cross member as pictured.   

Framing square against tube


Second test. Drew a straight line on the floor. Frame upright, leveled, plumb bob at the rear and plumb bob hanging from the steering stop. Plumb front to back along the straight line.  I place a straight edge down the steering tube and noted where the straight edge touched the line. The picture tell the tale. 

Is my method flawed and is this not conclusive enough????  Let me know your thoughts.
Various photo's different angles.








« Last Edit: September 06, 2014, 11:35:25 pm by albertaboy »
1975 CB750K
No where to go and all day to get there.
My build thread: http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php?topic=131424.0

Offline lwahples

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Re: Is my frame bent? Is my method flawed? Lot of pictures!!
« Reply #1 on: November 15, 2013, 11:37:31 am »
Wow,you spent money to have them say it's off.But would only say where if you spent more?Hard to believe it's bent with all the tests that you did.

Offline LesterPiglet

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Re: Is my frame bent? Is my method flawed? Lot of pictures!!
« Reply #2 on: November 15, 2013, 11:40:03 am »
I would guarantee your floor isn't flat.
'Then' and 'than' are completely different words and have completely different meanings. Same with 'of' and 'have'. Set and sit. There, their and they're. Draw and drawer. Could care less/couldn't care less. Bought/brought FFS.


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Re: Is my frame bent? Is my method flawed? Lot of pictures!!
« Reply #3 on: November 15, 2013, 11:52:50 am »
I would guarantee your floor isn't flat.
Isn't that what the level was for?

Offline albertaboy

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Re: Is my frame bent? Is my method flawed? Lot of pictures!!
« Reply #4 on: November 15, 2013, 12:00:31 pm »
I would guarantee your floor isn't flat.
Isn't that what the level was for?

My mind is open for suggestions.  Keep them coming.

When I bought this bike, I got a 30 minute test ride.   Nothing about it's handling scared me-nothing like my modern bike mind you and given it's age nothing seemed off. I also have 35 years street riding experience- still Im no pro.
1975 CB750K
No where to go and all day to get there.
My build thread: http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php?topic=131424.0

Offline LesterPiglet

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Re: Is my frame bent? Is my method flawed? Lot of pictures!!
« Reply #5 on: November 15, 2013, 12:01:11 pm »
Be better suspending the frame and putting the level across the flat behind where the seat/tank meet and use plumb lines.
'Then' and 'than' are completely different words and have completely different meanings. Same with 'of' and 'have'. Set and sit. There, their and they're. Draw and drawer. Could care less/couldn't care less. Bought/brought FFS.


Les Ross.            Certified by a Professional

Offline brooze72

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Re: Is my frame bent? Is my method flawed? Lot of pictures!!
« Reply #6 on: November 15, 2013, 12:04:33 pm »
Maybe my eyes or the pictures are decieving me, but it doesn't seem to be showing that it is out by 3/4"?  I am curious about the first "string test", was that a wheel alignment check?
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"Hold on loosely...don't let go
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Offline albertaboy

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Re: Is my frame bent? Is my method flawed? Lot of pictures!!
« Reply #7 on: November 15, 2013, 12:11:55 pm »
Maybe my eyes or the pictures are decieving me, but it doesn't seem to be showing that it is out by 3/4"?  I am curious about the first "string test", was that a wheel alignment check?
Wow,you spent money to have them say it's off.But would only say where if you spent more?Hard to believe it's bent with all the tests that you did.

Yes, I believe the sting test is the common wheel alignment test. Shop 1 claimed it was accurate as an initial test and they failed the bike based on that.
Ya, the OOP inspection is a service they get a fee for. No charge to re-inspect and "pass" after recommended repairs have been done. I don't tend to believe people lie to just grab money for un necessay repairs but neither shop left me feeling very confident.  Regardless, I cant title the frame without a passing OOP inspection.
1975 CB750K
No where to go and all day to get there.
My build thread: http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php?topic=131424.0

Offline albertaboy

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Re: Is my frame bent? Is my method flawed? Lot of pictures!!
« Reply #8 on: November 15, 2013, 12:14:44 pm »
Be better suspending the frame and putting the level across the flat behind where the seat/tank meet and use plumb lines.
I will try that and see what I come up with.  Thanks.
1975 CB750K
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My build thread: http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php?topic=131424.0

Online calj737

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Re: Is my frame bent? Is my method flawed? Lot of pictures!!
« Reply #9 on: November 15, 2013, 01:19:50 pm »
Might be my eyes too, but it seems you've determined your frame is plumb, not square. If they described it as "out 3/4"" are they describing the track of the front wheel compared to the rear? If so, many factors could account for that which have nothing to do with the frame itself. Spacers, swing arm bushings, head stock bearings, etc...

If your latest examinations of the frame only, you'll be hard-pressed to identify the true cause without the wheels installed and the swing arm, forks etc. if a visual inspection of your frame doesn't reveal damage or "wrinkles" it's not likely the culprit.

Don't know if any of that helps... But maybe reassures you that you're not crazy.

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"Of all tyrannies, a tyranny sincerely exercised for the good of it's victim may be the most oppressive. It may be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated, but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end for they do so with the approval of their own conscience." - C.S. Lewis

Offline brooze72

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Re: Is my frame bent? Is my method flawed? Lot of pictures!!
« Reply #10 on: November 15, 2013, 01:56:18 pm »
. If they described it as "out 3/4"" are they describing the track of the front wheel compared to the rear? If so, many factors could account for that which have nothing to do with the frame itself. Spacers, swing arm bushings, head stock bearings, etc...

If your latest examinations of the frame only, you'll be hard-pressed to identify the true cause without the wheels installed and the swing arm, forks etc. if a visual inspection of your frame doesn't reveal damage or "wrinkles" it's not likely the culprit.


That's what I was thinking too, calj737
2011, 2012 & 2013 Godzilla Relay Rally Rider
"Hold on loosely...don't let go
 If you cling too tightly...you're gonna lose control"
1972 CB500K1 - restored rider
1981 CB650C - new project

Offline iron_worker

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Re: Is my frame bent? Is my method flawed? Lot of pictures!!
« Reply #11 on: November 15, 2013, 01:57:29 pm »
How did you ensure the straight edge you used was in line with your steering tube? Looks like it's just laying on there. If you had a known straight tube that would fit snugly in the steering tube then that would work well.

IW

Offline albertaboy

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Re: Is my frame bent? Is my method flawed? Lot of pictures!!
« Reply #12 on: November 15, 2013, 02:11:08 pm »
Might be my eyes too, but it seems you've determined your frame is plumb, not square. If they described it as "out 3/4"" are they describing the track of the front wheel compared to the rear? If so, many factors could account for that which have nothing to do with the frame itself. Spacers, swing arm bushings, head stock bearings, etc...

If your latest examinations of the frame only, you'll be hard-pressed to identify the true cause without the wheels installed and the swing arm, forks etc. if a visual inspection of your frame doesn't reveal damage or "wrinkles" it's not likely the culprit.

Don't know if any of that helps... But maybe reassures you that you're not crazy.



I think my test shows the steering tube is as it's supposed to be.  What spacers do you refer to?? the end caps on the swing arm?

Both shops questioned the and checked the swingarm for end caps but the PO had replaced the bushings and the axle collar with new honda OEM parts.  I could verify this with the new parts receipts the the actual old parts as provided by the PO.  Both questioned if the problem was at the triple tree.

If the spacers you refer to are the wheel axle spacers?? I'll have to research but I think I've got the right ones, front and back but I cant be sure.

Otherwise, I cant not see any obvious frame damage or wrinkles.

Basically, My next step is to install roller bearings in the steering stem, install a complete front end, install the swing arm, check the axle spacers and then do an alignment test???
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My build thread: http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php?topic=131424.0

Offline lucky

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Re: Is my frame bent? Is my method flawed? Lot of pictures!!
« Reply #13 on: November 15, 2013, 02:15:25 pm »
This story is a mess from the very beginning. I feel sorry for you that you could not get the help that you needed.

You cannot measure the frame the way you are showing in the photos
The level across the bottom of the frame means nothing.
Many motorcycles that have double loop cradle frames have one side of the frame lower than the opposite side.

What matters is the rear axle alignment in relation to the steering head and the swing arm pivot points being level to the ground etc.,.

First you must find someone that builds chopper frames.
Have them put the frame in their jig.

The way it works is that the STEERING head is put into the fixture with a cone on the top and the bottom. and it is tightened up.
Then measurements can be made along the centerline of the frame and the swing arm centerline..

I feel that you were totally ripped off for $190.00!! AND they could not even tell you what is bent? WOW.

Photos coming.In the photos below you can see how the centerline is established.

For $190.000 I could tell you exactly what was going on with your frame.
I do not need a lazer either.
Lazer is too fuzzy and not exact marking.

Just find a chopper builder that has a motorcycle frame building fixture.
Easy Peasy.

If a frame was 3/4 inch off it would have noticeable visual damage.
Wrinkles or paint flaking off near welds, broken welds etc.,.
I still  do not know how those people stay in business. Cheeeeessshhhh!!!

I build frames from scratch. I know what I am talking about.
BTW...Many factory frames are slightly off.





« Last Edit: November 15, 2013, 02:43:30 pm by lucky »

Offline albertaboy

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Re: Is my frame bent? Is my method flawed? Lot of pictures!!
« Reply #14 on: November 15, 2013, 02:34:07 pm »
This story is a mess from the very beginning. I feel sorry for you that you could not get the help that you needed.

You cannot measure the frame the way you are showing in the photos

First you must find someone that builds chopper frames.
Have them put the frame in their jig.

The way it works is that the STEERING head is put into the fixture with a cone on the top and the bottom. and it is tightened up.
Then measurements can be made along the centerline of the frame and the swing arm centerline..

I feel that you were totally ripped off for $190.00!! AND they could not even tell you what is bent? WOW.

Photos coming.



Oh I felt like I was totally bent over and they didnt even use spit.... sorry if that's to graffic...Anyways.   Their fee included checking the tires, brakes, fork seals, head, tail signal lights ect etc. You know... safety stuff that takes specialize techs in the eyes of the government at least, stuff that you and I can't possibly see.  I wanted to be careful not to turn this into a dishonest service center rant but I couldnt believe it when shop 2 told me, despite the lazer, they still couldn't determine a bend.

So having said that, I prefer to believe the shops are honest with a reputation to uphold so maybe the wheel spacing on the axle or steering stem bearing were buggered??? 

Regardless, I like the chopper builder idea. There must be somebody around this small town of a million people.
1975 CB750K
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My build thread: http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php?topic=131424.0

Offline lucky

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Re: Is my frame bent? Is my method flawed? Lot of pictures!!
« Reply #15 on: November 15, 2013, 02:37:17 pm »
Be better suspending the frame and putting the level across the flat behind where the seat/tank meet and use plumb lines.

Those sheet metal stampings for the seat and so forth are often not right.
All measurements on a frame are in relationship to the steering head of the motorcycle frame.

« Last Edit: November 16, 2013, 11:34:04 am by lucky »

Offline lucky

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Re: Is my frame bent? Is my method flawed? Lot of pictures!!
« Reply #16 on: November 15, 2013, 02:40:02 pm »
If you really wanted to do this right, you will need a flat table.
The table MUST be level in both directions.

Then you must have a post that can hold the steering head centered. and it MUST be vertical and level in both directions. THEN AND ONLY THEN can you start making any measurements.

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Re: Is my frame bent? Is my method flawed? Lot of pictures!!
« Reply #17 on: November 15, 2013, 02:40:40 pm »
I think we are all agreeing on the same things. Lucky is correct about how you accurately determine steering/rear axle alignment (actually are they perpendicular). Bu his too is adjustable with moving the axle within the swing arm.

Alberta- I was referring to proper installation of the rear wheel spacer so on the rear axle.

I'd approaching t this way: vertical head stock with frame suspended. Hang the swing arm and  install the rear axle. Front forks installed and midpoint between forks (stretch a string and mark the center point). Secure rear axle, find "center of frame" translate this to rear axle. Then check for perpendicular between rear axe and front axle while insuring forks/head stock are plumb.

Absent of taking the bike, not just the frame, to a frame shop, this you can verify at home. I bet you don't find any irregularities...

Lucky, can you envision a scenario where 3/4" wouldn't show on the frame as damage?
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"Of all tyrannies, a tyranny sincerely exercised for the good of it's victim may be the most oppressive. It may be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated, but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end for they do so with the approval of their own conscience." - C.S. Lewis

Offline lucky

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Re: Is my frame bent? Is my method flawed? Lot of pictures!!
« Reply #18 on: November 15, 2013, 02:46:35 pm »
Yes, I can imagine that.
Some double loop cradle frames have a removable section for engine work.
Those are often not symetrical.

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Re: Is my frame bent? Is my method flawed? Lot of pictures!!
« Reply #19 on: November 15, 2013, 02:49:44 pm »
While i am certain your response is technically correct, it's not relevant to "his" situation. We have seen the pictures of his frame, and it certainly does not have a removable cage. So, any ideas on "this" frame where the 3/4 could be IF the frame doesn't visually  show damage to it?
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"Of all tyrannies, a tyranny sincerely exercised for the good of it's victim may be the most oppressive. It may be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated, but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end for they do so with the approval of their own conscience." - C.S. Lewis

Offline heffay

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Re: Is my frame bent? Is my method flawed? Lot of pictures!!
« Reply #20 on: November 15, 2013, 03:01:02 pm »
Take the bike up next to a large tree, fence or wall, and smack the front wheel into the structure until it's square.    :D

old bmx trick should be good enough for the inspection, right?   ;D

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Offline albertaboy

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Re: Is my frame bent? Is my method flawed? Lot of pictures!!
« Reply #21 on: November 15, 2013, 03:19:52 pm »
Take the bike up next to a large tree, fence or wall, and smack the front wheel into the structure until it's square.    :D

old bmx trick should be good enough for the inspection, right?   ;D



Haha, I like your sense of humor.... Its true, as a kid on the farm, we used to sneak our dirt bikes a few miles to the local gravel crusher/pit and and climb the walls. Didn't always make it to the top and the tumble to the bottom surely bent something. My bike's front end was so far off it wasn't funny... still rode the hell out of it. :)
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No where to go and all day to get there.
My build thread: http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php?topic=131424.0

Offline albertaboy

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Re: Is my frame bent? Is my method flawed? Lot of pictures!!
« Reply #22 on: November 15, 2013, 03:23:32 pm »
This story is a mess from the very beginning. I feel sorry for you that you could not get the help that you needed.

You cannot measure the frame the way you are showing in the photos

First you must find someone that builds chopper frames.
Have them put the frame in their jig.

The way it works is that the STEERING head is put into the fixture with a cone on the top and the bottom. and it is tightened up.
Then measurements can be made along the centerline of the frame and the swing arm centerline..

I feel that you were totally ripped off for $190.00!! AND they could not even tell you what is bent? WOW.

Photos coming.



Oh I felt like I was totally bent over and they didnt even use spit.... sorry if that's to graffic...Anyways.   Their fee included checking the tires, brakes, fork seals, head, tail signal lights ect etc. You know... safety stuff that takes specialize techs in the eyes of the government at least, stuff that you and I can't possibly see.  I wanted to be careful not to turn this into a dishonest service center rant but I couldnt believe it when shop 2 told me, despite the lazer, they still couldn't determine a bend.

So having said that, I prefer to believe the shops are honest with a reputation to uphold so maybe the wheel spacing on the axle or steering stem bearing were buggered??? 

Regardless, I like the chopper builder idea. There must be somebody around this small town of a million people.

Just got off the phone. Only two chopper builders here an neither build their own frames. They prefer to buy frames that are already certified and passed inspection. The one guy described "the hassle" wasn't worth building their own.
1975 CB750K
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My build thread: http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php?topic=131424.0

Offline 754

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Re: Is my frame bent? Is my method flawed? Lot of pictures!!
« Reply #23 on: November 15, 2013, 04:06:47 pm »
 Will look over this later, will. Say this though you can probably do it anywhere but just level off the motor mount rear that is or swingarm mount.
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Re: Is my frame bent? Is my method flawed? Lot of pictures!!
« Reply #24 on: November 15, 2013, 04:15:02 pm »
Alberta - look at pic 3 you posted: did you by chance hold a second level at 90 to the one laying across the top? I'd be curious with the plumb bob, steering and center of frame all "lined" up, whether the frame is racked vertically?

From the picture (#3) it looks like the rear fender/seat brace is off center. May simply be the angle of the photo, but use that setup and measure the center AT&T he rear, line up as you have the steering head, then measure vertically for 90. Just confirm its a photo anomaly and not that the rear seat hoop area is racked over.
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"Of all tyrannies, a tyranny sincerely exercised for the good of it's victim may be the most oppressive. It may be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated, but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end for they do so with the approval of their own conscience." - C.S. Lewis