Topic: Kids and the Future...

[pmpski_1]

the best thing in the world is when I come home and they both come running to the door to see me.

You're right about that. I'd forgotten about that daily experience...

My dog does the same thing, and I don't have to change his diapers 

Really though, when the time is right we'll start a family. I think about all the tools, bikes, and junk cars I can buy with the money it'll cost, but then I think about my dad and I going out riding dirt bikes. Someday I'll have a new riding buddy.

[ChrisR]

I must admit to being very much of your mind when I was in my 20's, Ghoulie . The main thing that having a child has taught me is to try to live in the present and concentrate on what's in front of you. Not to dwell on the 'what if' - bit like motorcycling really.
For most of human existance life has been 'solitary, poor, nasty, brutish and short' as Thomas Hobbes said. We live pretty comfortable and secure lives compared to 95% of people in the history of humanity. I can't think that there has been a better time to raise children.  I sincerely think there is a fair chance my child may live in a  better world than mine. Which isn't what your average medieval serf could have hoped for.
(That's if we can get our arses in gear and sort out how to provide energy for ourselves in 100 years time - but I think we might be pleasantly surprised by how many technological advances "miraculously' appear as oil companies transform themselves into energy providers of a different kind).

[nickjtc]

but I think we might be pleasantly surprised by how many technological advances "miraculously' appear as oil companies transform themselves into energy providers of a different kind).

I think you are right on that one!

[ofreen]

For most of human existance life has been 'solitary, poor, nasty, brutish and short' as Thomas Hobbes said. We live pretty comfortable and secure lives compared to 95% of people in the history of humanity.

I live in southern Idaho these days, and I have visited many old graveyards that date from the 1800's around the old gold mining towns.  They are filled with little gravestones with no name on them on graves of children who died just after childbirth.  Added to those are the ones that lived long enough to be named, but died anywhere from a couple of weeks old to 8 years old.  People these days don't realize how big a part death played in day-to-day life not so long ago.

[upperlake04]

I live in southern Idaho these days, and I have visited many old graveyards that date from the 1800's around the old gold mining towns. People these days don't realize how big a part death played in day-to-day life not so long ago.

I have done the same many times here. Cemeteries are not morbid places, but often are quiet, peaceful and contemplative places where one can attempt to put ones personal problems into perspective.

Still trying to unravel the philosophical meaning in your Vinnie avatar Ofreen

[ofreen]

Still trying to unravel the philosophical meaning in your Vinnie avatar Ofreen

It's from an old National Lampoon cover.  The joke is a take-off on the old joke about two guys, one with a banana in his ear.  The other guy says hey, there's a banana in your ear.  The first guy says, What?  The second guy yells 'you've got a banana in your ear!'  The first guy says 'I can't hear you. You see, I have a banana in my ear.'

Pretty deep, huh?

[upperlake04]

oh.. you used to have a cosmic themed avatar, and have an F, I just assumed....       

[ofreen]

oh.. you used to have a cosmic themed avatar, and have an F, I just assumed....       

I just thought it was a purty pitcher.   

[cafehonda]

Ever heard of the anthropic principal? In a nutshell, it states that most of these circular mental exercises that people pretend are interesting philosophical viewpoints are based in the simple principal that the only reason the question exists is because someone is there to ask it. The universe doesn't care if you have kids or not. In fact , your existence , and that of your offspring, is at best immaterial and at worst a detriment to everything around you. If you cease to exist tomorrow it will certainly change the fabric of the universe but will be of little consequence to the bulk of living beings. Most of the time these kind of questions are the end result of mental midgetry combined with a sense of futility in a wasted existence. If you have to ask others if there is any value to passing on your genetics, which by the way is the only meaning of life because that is the only thing life is intended to do, replicate itself, then the answer is clearly no. So do the free thinking world a favor and stop asking these asinine questions which only lead to people bragging about how wonderful they think their kids are. Most people's kids are of average or below intelligence, appearance and ability (I use average because nobody knows the definition of median or mean). No offense meant, but after all, man didn't invent the bell curve, he just became aware of it's unassailable validity. Just live and don't overthink so much. It doesn't really matter and everybody winds up dead.

[upperlake04]

ya Groovie - just look at Ofreens purty picture

[GroovieGhoulie]

Ever heard of the anthropic principal? In a nutshell, it states that most of these circular mental exercises that people pretend are interesting philosophical viewpoints are based in the simple principal that the only reason the question exists is because someone is there to ask it. The universe doesn't care if you have kids or not. In fact , your existence , and that of your offspring, is at best immaterial and at worst a detriment to everything around you. If you cease to exist tomorrow it will certainly change the fabric of the universe but will be of little consequence to the bulk of living beings. Most of the time these kind of questions are the end result of mental midgetry combined with a sense of futility in a wasted existence. If you have to ask others if there is any value to passing on your genetics, which by the way is the only meaning of life because that is the only thing life is intended to do, replicate itself, then the answer is clearly no. So do the free thinking world a favor and stop asking these asinine questions which only lead to people bragging about how wonderful they think their kids are. Most people's kids are of average or below intelligence, appearance and ability (I use average because nobody knows the definition of median or mean). No offense meant, but after all, man didn't invent the bell curve, he just became aware of it's unassailable validity. Just live and don't overthink so much. It doesn't really matter and everybody winds up dead.

Well, you'll certainly have to try harder than THAT to raise my ire. 

[putnaja1]

Ever heard of the anthropic principal? In a nutshell, it states that most of these circular mental exercises that people pretend are interesting philosophical viewpoints are based in the simple principal that the only reason the question exists is because someone is there to ask it. The universe doesn't care if you have kids or not. In fact , your existence , and that of your offspring, is at best immaterial and at worst a detriment to everything around you. If you cease to exist tomorrow it will certainly change the fabric of the universe but will be of little consequence to the bulk of living beings. Most of the time these kind of questions are the end result of mental midgetry combined with a sense of futility in a wasted existence. If you have to ask others if there is any value to passing on your genetics, which by the way is the only meaning of life because that is the only thing life is intended to do, replicate itself, then the answer is clearly no. So do the free thinking world a favor and stop asking these asinine questions which only lead to people bragging about how wonderful they think their kids are. Most people's kids are of average or below intelligence, appearance and ability (I use average because nobody knows the definition of median or mean). No offense meant, but after all, man didn't invent the bell curve, he just became aware of it's unassailable validity. Just live and don't overthink so much. It doesn't really matter and everybody winds up dead.

I'll just say this:  If you were really a free-thinker, would you be quoting the anthropic principal at the top of your post?  Or maybe you think you are a free thinker, but really you are just spouting off some bull#$%* you heard somewhere else, and therefore you are not free thinking.

Do you suggest that there is no value in seeking advice from your elders sir?

[Buber]

Oh, boy, where do I start?

Look at the world: We're effectively living in the dystopian future that so many authors wrote about. Increased governmental power, loss of rights, the economy held up by toothpicks on the edge of collapse, unchecked 3rd World immigration destroying the country, massive deficit spending, schools are like prisons, government in people's lives like CRAZY, the rise of foreign powers that are (successfully) challenging America's #1 Superpower status, (FWIW, I believe the Chinese are going to eat our lunch. If the 20th Century was the American Century, then the 21st century will be the Chinese century), etc, etc. Why bring kids into such a #$%*ty world? The generation born since the turn of the century, I believe, WILL live to see the death of the West, as it were, and will be the first American generation to have a LOWER standard of living than their parents.

Grim stuff, yet people are popping kids out everyday. Why? What's the motivation? Do people really not see the world as it is, or do they just not care?

Bear in mind I am pretty much a "Glass is Half-Empty" kinda guy, but I still can't see any positives to growing up in these times. We are living in the decline of a civilization, and life is just going to get worse and worse. Watch.

I just can't see subjecting an innocent life to such horrors.

Y'know, it shows (beside few other things) why some people ELSEWHERE (not in US) don't like Americans. First - without your kids, there will be no workpower to pay for your benefits, but more importantly - to work! Who will work, when you will get old and start looking for new, I don't know, lawn mower? Who will produce it? It's either your kids or this "unchecked immigration". Now hold on here a minute - who are you? Aren't YOU an immigrant? Because to be honest, y'all there are immigrants - except the native inhabitans (I do have a VERY nice Haida bracelet, eh, Alaska.....). So, take it easy there - it's a very bad mentality - I managed to get into that train of good life and future, so now, I will kick everybody else who want to gets in OUT! Why? Give them a chance too! As long as they behave - obey that laws, pay taxes, etc. But this is too much already - just remeber - YOU ARE ALL IMMIGRANTS there. I can trace my ancestors in the circle of 500 km until XIV century (that doesn't make me any better that any other, mind you), so i can say I'm not an immigrant. But at the end, it's VERY BAD thinking. We DO ARE all equal, even if habla espanol.

Superpower status, oh boy..... I traveled and worked with many nationalities, and i can even speak Russian, and i have Russian friends..... This superpower thing is purely some kind of internal complex. Why do guys buy fast cars? To cover up "other" deficiencies? Just give it a break, what the hell YOU are gonna lose when somebody else's country will grow up? Don't worry, nobody will invade you!

But all this aside - I'm not very old, just 34, but I already noticed - the older you get the more you think that before "there were good old times" when everything was better, etc. Well, did you ever heard about PROGRESS? Practically every century there was applauded prophet (starting with St.John's Apocalypse) saying that world is going down the drain. And look! Despite world wars, etc we are still alive, and more, the quality of life IMPROVES around the world. Really!

And one more thing - before I had kids (I have 2 daughters) I remember like today a similar way of thinking, although not so dark. It was more like - why bother with responsibility, lets go and play! And guess what - after having kids this all changes. There is absolutely nothing in this world like your kids saying "daddy I love you". Not mentioning fun of riding 2 bikes (with my wife) with teh kids on the back.
And guess what? When I will be 70 my kids wil take care of me, I will not die abandoned, and forgotten, or dumped in a daily care house. But that's me. Maybe you want to end like that - it's free world, go ahead. But I"D LOVE to have this conversation something like 30 years from now on.

So, in short - world is not as bad as you see it. On teh top of that, you actually are VERY LUCKY living in one of teh most developed countries in this world. LOWER standard of living - what do YOU know about it? I think, not much. Just go few miles south and look at the communist paradise of Cuba. So, stop whining! Be happy, and make others happy! Or tavel around - I did - it helped me to be a better person.

And if there will be more such pessimistic people, then yes, civilization will go worse. But don't worry, human nature is different. Humans are by default, positive - otherwise YOU wouldn't be in this world.

I REALLY wish you that you will become happier person. Because for the moment future looks bad for you.....

[putnaja1]

Oh, boy, where do I start?

Y'know, it shows (beside few other things) why some people ELSEWHERE (not in US) don't like Americans.

Wait a minute- we Americans don't all think this way.  I'd hope that people would take the time to get to know me before they hate me..  Besides, this has nothing to do with country of origin, it has to do with being a man, and how you feel about life at different stages of your life.  You say it yourself that you had similar thoughts.  I don't see how this shows to be a reason to not like Americans..  I think elsewhere, it is very trendy to not like Americans.

It's either your kids or this "unchecked immigration". Now hold on here a minute - who are you? Aren't YOU an immigrant? Because to be honest, y'all there are immigrants - except the native inhabitans (I do have a VERY nice Haida bracelet, eh, Alaska.....). So, take it easy there - it's a very bad mentality - I managed to get into that train of good life and future, so now, I will kick everybody else who want to gets in OUT! Why? Give them a chance too! As long as they behave - obey that laws, pay taxes, etc. But this is too much already - just remeber - YOU ARE ALL IMMIGRANTS there. I can trace my ancestors in the circle of 500 km until XIV century (that doesn't make me any better that any other, mind you), so i can say I'm not an immigrant. But at the end, it's VERY BAD thinking. We DO ARE all equal, even if habla espanol.

You know what- I'm tired of people trying to admonish the US over- we are more tolerant here in the USA of other peoples and cultures injected into our society than ANY OTHER NATION IN THE WORLD!!!  Tell me of one other country that is as diverse as the USA?  No one said anything about NO IMMIGRATION- we allow plenty, and we are all for LEGAL IMMIGRATION.  We are not for people who disregard our laws (as in, illegally crossing our borders) taking our money and social services without paying for them (that's stealing).  Add to that, there is a security reason to not just let anyone into this country.  Why don't people criticize Mexico for how they treat their southern border?  Do you even know what Mexico does to illegal immigrants that sneak into their country from the south?

I agree with everything else you say- about our offspring continuing our (society as a whole, not just USA) work for us.  I agree that we in the USA are all immigrants (again, we are not anti-immigration!!  We are anti-illegal immigration.  There is a HUGE difference!  Ask a legal immigrant how they feel about illegal immigration, and how they feel about the USA)

Jason

[GroovieGhoulie]

Yes...If you note, I was not against Immigration on a whole, just unchecked (generally illegal), 3RD WORLD immigration.  These people do not ASSIMILATE and become AMERICANS.  They become hyphenated-Americans and do not share our culture, values and language.

It's harder for a educated, hard-working Englsih-speaking European to become a US Citizen than for a illiterate fruit-picker who jumped a fence to become one.  THAT is the problem.

Would you appreciate it if I came to Poland, overstayed my Visa (If I went to the trouble to get one), then refused to learn Polish, demanded that everything for me be in English AND leeched off your social services WITHOUT paying in?  Would you like that?

[aptech77]

GROOVIE GHOULIE in '08   

[nickjtc]

Ever heard of the anthropic principal? In a nutshell, it states that most of these circular mental exercises that people pretend are interesting philosophical viewpoints are based in the simple principal that the only reason the question exists is because someone is there to ask it. The universe doesn't care if you have kids or not. In fact , your existence , and that of your offspring, is at best immaterial and at worst a detriment to everything around you. If you cease to exist tomorrow it will certainly change the fabric of the universe but will be of little consequence to the bulk of living beings. Most of the time these kind of questions are the end result of mental midgetry combined with a sense of futility in a wasted existence. If you have to ask others if there is any value to passing on your genetics, which by the way is the only meaning of life because that is the only thing life is intended to do, replicate itself, then the answer is clearly no. So do the free thinking world a favor and stop asking these asinine questions which only lead to people bragging about how wonderful they think their kids are. Most people's kids are of average or below intelligence, appearance and ability (I use average because nobody knows the definition of median or mean). No offense meant, but after all, man didn't invent the bell curve, he just became aware of it's unassailable validity. Just live and don't overthink so much. It doesn't really matter and everybody winds up dead.

It's only human nature to want to share experience, and learn from others. That is not negative thing, just a human thing.

[Rushoid]

Yes...If you note, I was not against Immigration on a whole, just unchecked (generally illegal), 3RD WORLD immigration.  These people do not ASSIMILATE and become AMERICANS.  They become hyphenated-Americans and do not share our culture, values and language.

It's harder for a educated, hard-working Englsih-speaking European to become a US Citizen than for a illiterate fruit-picker who jumped a fence to become one.  THAT is the problem.

Would you appreciate it if I came to Poland, overstayed my Visa (If I went to the trouble to get one), then refused to learn Polish, demanded that everything for me be in English AND leeched off your social services WITHOUT paying in?  Would you like that?

You forgot waving the Stars and Stripes in their faces.

For the record, I am not an immigrant. I am a native American. My great-great grandparents were (legal) immigrants. I have Scottish, Irish, Alsatian, and German roots. But I am a native American.

GG, I respect your concern with bringing children into this world. It's not for everyone. Just look at some of the idiots that have kids but shouldn't. However, you're young. Your views of raising kids may very well change someday, as it has for many people here I'm sure. Just a bit of advice though: Get all of your toys (bikes, boats, hot rods, etc.) before you have kids - it's hard to find the money and time after they're born!  

[cafehonda]

Ever heard of the anthropic principal? In a nutshell, it states that most of these circular mental exercises that people pretend are interesting philosophical viewpoints are based in the simple principal that the only reason the question exists is because someone is there to ask it. The universe doesn't care if you have kids or not. In fact , your existence , and that of your offspring, is at best immaterial and at worst a detriment to everything around you. If you cease to exist tomorrow it will certainly change the fabric of the universe but will be of little consequence to the bulk of living beings. Most of the time these kind of questions are the end result of mental midgetry combined with a sense of futility in a wasted existence. If you have to ask others if there is any value to passing on your genetics, which by the way is the only meaning of life because that is the only thing life is intended to do, replicate itself, then the answer is clearly no. So do the free thinking world a favor and stop asking these asinine questions which only lead to people bragging about how wonderful they think their kids are. Most people's kids are of average or below intelligence, appearance and ability (I use average because nobody knows the definition of median or mean). No offense meant, but after all, man didn't invent the bell curve, he just became aware of it's unassailable validity. Just live and don't overthink so much. It doesn't really matter and everybody winds up dead.

Well, you'll certainly have to try harder than THAT to raise my ire. 

Not trying to raise any ire. Just dishing my brand of "B.S." I'm just saying, what does it really matter, and couldn't we all be thinking along more productive lines, maybe something having to do with the two wheeled conveyance we so enjoy and said conjoined lifestyle?

[Buber]

You know what? I'm kind of happy that i stirred teh pot a bit.
Now, on the contrary I'm one of few people around (from what i gather from my conversation in different european countries) that tries to understand why so many people around are not happy with Americans. I will tell you what - after working on cruise ships i met everybody from everywhere and i can honestly tell you that nobody is better than any other person. I just have seen a**holes and good guys, regardless where they were from.
But i do want to stress that you are very much centered on yourselves. Sorry if i hurt individuals - generalization always hurts.
Now for the immigration - I did  pointed out that i support immigrants, as long as they obey tha laws and pay taxes, didn't I? Because I do believe in order, and (realizing this may be seen as intolerant) I do have doubts about letting arabic kids into public school in their scarfs on. If they want to be so differen, go to private schools or wherever.

BUT, again - sorry for kind of criticism - harm not intended, and I DO believe in freedom and democracy (sorry guys, but i lived in martial law in a communist counrty - you didin't, and don't try - it's no fun at all  ), just i really like when people look more around and see bigger picture.

Now back to the topic - whatever Ghoulie is saying this world is how WE make it, so, Ghoulie! push your sleeves back and go ahead! Make this world better! And i don't mean it as a joke! I MEAN it. I had a chance to be  a part of UN contingent in Cambodia in '92, and I'm proud that I was able to give a very little tiny push towards better life of people there. After all now there are no more Khmer Rouge there.

Oh, sorry, I went on a writing spree. But guys - It' snot that I don't like Americans - I rahter don't like the so called "american way of life", and I hope you will see the difference.

As our Oz friend on this fourm says - peace! (and let me go back to my kids math lessons, oh boy.....  )

[GroovieGhoulie]

Not trying to raise any ire. Just dishing my brand of "B.S." I'm just saying, what does it really matter, and couldn't we all be thinking along more productive lines, maybe something having to do with the two wheeled conveyance we so enjoy and said conjoined lifestyle?

Well I agree, but fielding tech questions constantly gets old.  That's why we start the various topics in the Open forum.

After all, I'm just an average, hard-working stiff who enjoys a little salty language, and a nice cup of joe. 

[eldar]

I dont think americans are self-centered any more than any one else. Just look at how the french act! Do you need any other proof?

[nickjtc]

Just look at how the french act! Do you need any other proof?

Hey Eldar....it's a well known fact that the French can't act at all!

[GroovieGhoulie]

Just look at how the french act! Do you need any other proof?

Hey Eldar....it's a well known fact that the French can't act at all!

To be fair, that one french guy who was in "Ronin" with Robert DeNiro and (as I recall), "The Professional", well he's pretty good.

[HondaJay]

A list of things the French have given us:

French Toast
French Fries
Jean Reno (the actor mentioned above)
A lot of things to laugh about


anoyone french out there... dont take this too seriously