Author Topic: 77 cb550k3 headlight relay install--double checking  (Read 5241 times)

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Offline dave500

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Re: 77 cb550k3 headlight relay install--double checking
« Reply #25 on: January 28, 2014, 03:17:08 PM »
key switch contacts?,try bridging them in the first connector and recheck your voltage drop.

Offline vames

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Re: 77 cb550k3 headlight relay install--double checking
« Reply #26 on: January 28, 2014, 03:29:41 PM »
I'm still trying to figure out why he needs a relay.
http://www.oregonmotorcycleparts.com/FAQ.html

A relay is a good mod even if all of your connections are clean. Cars have had relays built into the lighting systems since the 1960s. These motorcycles were built extremely economically to be sold for as little money as they could, so they didn't build in things like relays. (Except for the starter solenoid, where it was a complete necessity).

Lighting the headlight with fewer junctions between the battery and the plug will in most cases brighten it up, and will prolong the life of the handle bar switch contacts at the expense of the much more heavy duty contacts in the relay.

The question for the PO is: Why are you trying to track down the resistance in your switches if you've already decided to go with relays? Just install the relays and be done with it and go ride your bike knowing that your light is shining the brightest it possibly can.

Offline Puntas13

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Re: 77 cb550k3 headlight relay install--double checking
« Reply #27 on: January 28, 2014, 03:32:30 PM »
I ordered an h4 relay kit from eastern beaver. all I done was cut off the stock socket that attached to the sealed beam and wired up the high/low wires to their respective relay. I've got that running to an H4 silver star. Of course youve got to run a lead from the battery. It all fit in my headlight bucket.

The light output from that setup is amazing. It's by far the brightest of any bike ive had including bikes that ran dual h4s.

I've never had an issue with the battery not charging fully in my cb500f and I've got new 5ohm coils and electronic ignition on top of that.

DH

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Re: 77 cb550k3 headlight relay install--double checking
« Reply #28 on: January 28, 2014, 06:26:32 PM »
Can someone answer this: Isn't Hondaman's keysaver kit only intended to bypass the load around the ignition switch? From what has been posted, it sounds like it's doing its job? Brighter lamp would just
be a pleasant "side effect", providing the rest of the headlamp circuit was resistance free (sounds like it's not)......I'd do like dave500 sez, and start doing voltage drop checks/jumping (bypassing)around different components and re checking for voltage differences. Starting at the keyswitch relay and see if its passing 12v. THRU it, and has 12v. going TO it. Or Am I barkin up the wrong tree? :) I'm guessin your mission is to find out where that 1v. loss is?
« Last Edit: January 28, 2014, 06:32:34 PM by DH »

Offline Puntas13

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Re: 77 cb550k3 headlight relay install--double checking
« Reply #29 on: January 29, 2014, 07:41:12 AM »
Yes his key switch saver is simply a relay for the key ignition

relays route the full power load through themselves and that takes the load off the switch they are tied to.

If you add a relay to a system you have to plumb that relay into the battery. It's just a mechanical on off switch.

Offline dave500

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Re: 77 cb550k3 headlight relay install--double checking
« Reply #30 on: January 29, 2014, 11:40:52 AM »
its an electro-mechanical on off switch.

DH

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Re: 77 cb550k3 headlight relay install--double checking
« Reply #31 on: January 30, 2014, 10:05:46 AM »
Yes his key switch saver is simply a relay for the key ignition

relays route the full power load through themselves and that takes the load off the switch they are tied to.
[/quote]



Right, I understand that part, just verifying the purpose of that particular relay (ign relay). I just meant to suggest if there was 12v available AT THE RELAY, but
NOT the headlamp, it might narrow down the general area where voltage drop actually is....Seems like simple voltage drop checks, IF the mission is to find 1v loss to the headlight. Didn't mean to get off track. Seems like this thread changed directions a bit? Maybe it's me not following :).....I'll step aside and watch. :)

EDIT: vames and others have some valid points imo.
« Last Edit: January 30, 2014, 10:11:49 AM by DH »

Offline TwoTired

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Re: 77 cb550k3 headlight relay install--double checking
« Reply #32 on: January 30, 2014, 11:37:35 AM »
From the meandering posts, I was led to understand that the op's bike now had three relays kludged in.  One bypassed the start button switch and key switch headlight current, and two more at the blue and white wires near the headlight respectively.
The ones at the headlight reduced the current flow through all of the headlight current consumption circuitry (including the starter switch/key switch current bypass relay).  As explained earlier, the less current flow through faulty switches and connectors, the less voltage drop will be incurred in those faulty circuit path components which are now used as logic control circuits rather than power routing.  So, with simple measurements, the marginal switches and connectors will now "measure" better, hiding their true functional capability, as they only have to pass signals now rather than the current loads they were designed to carry.

I learned the OP would rather ride the bike, than locate faults in an electrical system he does not wish to understand.  So, the kludges meet his needs perfectly, for now.
I don't think I want to know if the wire splices were cut, solder, and shrink wrap, or twisting wires together with electrical tape, for even more lurking gremlins to leap out in the future.  If you want an unreliable SOHC4, do scrimp and cheat regarding the electrical system.

---------------
Someone, mentioned grease becoming an insulator inside switch mechanisms.
All the sliding switches use a mechanical wiping action to displace grease during the "make" cycle of the switch.  This also self cleans the actual electrical contact patch.  If the spring pressures are weak, or the contacts are worn from repeated cycles so much as to reduce or eliminate contact patch area, the resistance goes up.  The point here is that if the contact patch has been reduced so as not capable of carrying full rated loads, then mechanical wear will eventually, prevent ALL contact so that low current signals can't pass either (or they become intermittent).  Now when the headlight doesn't work, the technician has to find out if it is the headlight, the relays, or something in the undocumented headlight control system (including wires twisted and taped together) that is at fault.  More parts can actually reduce reliability ratings, due to more opportunities for something to fail. 
What's the old add campaign slogan?  "Pay me now or pay me later", (usually at the side of the road, in the dark of night in the rain).
When you make something more complex, you also reduce the number of people able to find faults in that something, even in a magnificent opinion forum such as ours.

I should mention that the later model SOHC4 "headlight interrupter" start button switch is a bit of a different animal than described above, as a spring forces contacts together with very little "wiping" action.  Carbon, oxidation, or very congealed grease can cause some issues, (which is why I use pure silicone grease on these contacts during rebuild, which displaces easily and doesn't change its physical properties over time, yet still prevents oxidation of the contacts, and has no destructive effect on plastic).
These switches are "born" with electrical contacts in the 10-15 amp make/break capability and hundreds of cycles before significant degradation.  Failures of these switches are far more likely to be caused by switch housing deterioration, which is the part that holds the internal contacts is proper orientation.

Lloyd... (SOHC4 #11 Original Mail List)
72 500, 74 550, 75 550K, 75 550F, 76 550F, 77 550F X2, 78 550K, 77 750F X2, 78 750F, 79CX500, 85 700SC, GL1100

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Offline alacrity

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Re: 77 cb550k3 headlight relay install--double checking
« Reply #33 on: January 30, 2014, 10:30:39 PM »
Nothing on this bike is "kludged."

I use proper vintage connectors.

I solder.

I don't twist and tape.

The only non-standard connectors I have are those that were provided with (the equally well-respected) Hondaman's starter kit.

I guess if others have benefited from the information presented here (perhaps both from and in response to my questions), then my choice to politely absorb the public vilification has been worth it.  Please note I haven't been ADVISING others to be lazy and "kludge" their bikes up with myriad relays.  Oh and when I go in search of problems with the stock wiring, I do it with only the STOCK WIRING hooked up with the stock connectors.  I disconnect the headlight relays and plug the oem wiring back together (easy and quick, since I am using the appropriate connectors -- we all know that de-kludging takes a while...)  I took ten minutes and made a click-in temporary workaround harness that takes the Hondaman starter relay set up out of the loop also, so i can leave it mounted and check things around it.

I get that there are only just so many possibilities for the source of the weak current here... and it does seem like the over-complicated starter switch on this 77 cb550k (as compared to earlier models where a press of the button simply connected the Y/R wire to ground) is a very likely culprit. Thank you TT for that suggestion -- it confirms where I was heading. In fact, I am gonna meander (like my posts apparently) back out to the garage tonight and give it the old college try once more.

If I solve the problem(s) and everything works fine with the OEM parts, then I put the relays in a drawer. If not, then I have a bike to ride until I fix the OEM parts I have or acquire other less faulty/less worn OEM parts. Or maybe I will just give up. Or maybe I will get a bunch of harley parts and attach them with rubber cement and cover them with macrame. Who knows what the future holds?
I recently restored and sold a 77 cb750f, and am nearly finished with a (former basket case) cb750k5.  This is a place to share, learn and enjoy.  I am grateful to and for 99+% of this site's membership.

Offline 74750k4

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Re: 77 cb550k3 headlight relay install--double checking
« Reply #34 on: January 31, 2014, 09:01:22 AM »
Sorry for you having to endure the insinuations. Not uncommon here. As you mentioned, if you can glean some useful information in between the useless comments, well, I guess we're doing ok.

I found a Fluke Automotive PDF that is a quite useful guide. Voltage drops section shown below might help you. Take a look.
Here's the link to the full Fluke guide.

http://assets.fluke.com/appnotes/automotive/beatbook.pdf


Here's an even newer updated version...

and the URL:  http://media.fluke.com/documents/1547394_0000_ENG_K_W.PDF
« Last Edit: January 31, 2014, 09:17:00 AM by 74750k4 »

Offline Don R

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Re: 77 cb550k3 headlight relay install--double checking
« Reply #35 on: January 31, 2014, 10:52:15 AM »
 Sorry if it was covered, I'm not reading all the above.

In the bucket at the headlight just before the connector. One on the high beam, one on the low beam. Reduces the amp load on all the switches. The right and left controls are 40 years old or weak chinese repo's especially the 76 and up start/headlight buttons. They get hot and the plastic crumbles. JMHO.
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Offline TwoTired

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Re: 77 cb550k3 headlight relay install--double checking
« Reply #36 on: January 31, 2014, 02:41:11 PM »
Nothing on this bike is "kludged."
On the contrary...
I've been making and using Kludges since the 70's.  It was/is a normal part of the developmental engineering of a new product where initial assumptions proved incorrect on a prototype.  Then a piece of code, circuit or device was appended in what ever way was expedient for the prototype to correctly function.  But, these kludges were never intended as a permanent solution or to appear in a production example.
I recognize a kludge when one is described, and the additional relays are just that.  You all but admitted so when you said "you'd fix it later", imo.

In my mind, the only negative connotation to the word kludge is when it is accepted as a final solution to evade solving the real problem.

For example running a wire direct from battery to coil power input is a kludge to get a bike running.  Indeed, you can ride a good distance with the bike wired in such a manner.  But, I know of no production bike that worked this way from the showroom floor.

Another simple kludge is the wire bridging around the Vreg to determine if the alternator is capable of charging the battery.  Again, it proves a concept but is not expected to be a permanent solution.

Adding relays to circumvent a switch or connector problem remains a kludge to the well proven electrical system of the stock bike.

I use proper vintage connectors.

I solder.

I don't twist and tape.

Basic troubleshooting positioning is that, given no evidence to the contrary, expect the worst, toward achieving the best.  If a needed data set is empty, expect it to be the worst.  Your now-presented statements weren't in the original data set.  So, the worst must be addressed in any proposed solution.  Glad to finally hear of the refined data set regarding this "temporary" work around, as you presented.  (Yes, I have twisted and taped early in my career.  The ultimate failure of which, is why I now abhor the practice as a final solution, while the unknowledgeable still practice it routinely.)

I guess if others have benefited from the information presented here (perhaps both from and in response to my questions), then my choice to politely absorb the public vilification has been worth it. 

Ok, you wish to play the victim.  It's a common human defense mechanism.  But, it has no relevance to a technical discussion or to a machine repair methodology.  Cajoling, soft words, and hand holding seldom fix an electrical or mechanical problem expediently, which I assumed was the original goal.  Too bad you wish to take it personally.  If you were to reach toward putting your hand in a fire, I'd slap it away or shout to prevent injury rather than initiate a casual dialog about why you should retract your hand rather than extend.  You can't reason or cajole fire into not transferring heat.
In engineering and machine repair it is best to get to the blunt point of the manner in as short a time as possible.  The machine you are working on has no feelings, and the best technicians suspend their emotions while sorting toward the root of the problem.  Rage and ignorance rarely fix a seemingly recalcitrant machine.  It doesn't care.
While it may upset many, I don't believe in political correctness or the coddling of adult technicians. 

I get that there are only just so many possibilities for the source of the weak current here... and it does seem like the over-complicated starter switch on this 77 cb550k (as compared to earlier models where a press of the button simply connected the Y/R wire to ground) is a very likely culprit.
During the SOHC4's production life, the DOT mandated that headlights should be on when the bike is in operation, removing the choice for the operator to decide when the headlight is on.  Prior models had an additional head light switch, which the operator could select OFF during start operation, to keep the system voltage high during the high current draw of the starter motor.   With no separate headlight switch installed on DOT acceptable models, the headlight interrupter function was added to the starter button in order to turn off the headlight when the starter motor was engaged.  In short, the headlight ON/OFF switch was simply moved inside the right hand switch group.  Removing the headlight control option from the rider.

It's an interesting viewpoint that you see this newer switch arrangement change as "over-complicated".  Especially since you just added three even more complex relay circuits to your bike.


Lloyd... (SOHC4 #11 Original Mail List)
72 500, 74 550, 75 550K, 75 550F, 76 550F, 77 550F X2, 78 550K, 77 750F X2, 78 750F, 79CX500, 85 700SC, GL1100

Those that learn from history are doomed to repeat it by those that don't learn from history.

Offline 74750k4

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Re: 77 cb550k3 headlight relay install--double checking
« Reply #37 on: February 03, 2014, 12:09:01 PM »
Goldwing...   what a kludge!

Twenty Five Fricken RELAYS!!!

Do you think they will ever get this right, and wire it correctly???  :)


Offline alacrity

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Re: 77 cb550k3 headlight relay install--double checking
« Reply #38 on: February 03, 2014, 05:56:12 PM »
Just as in all things mechanical, one cannot change the way things are simply by positing.

Take for example our new favorite word, "kludge" (or "kluge").

There are no positive connotations to this term. There is no pleasant, collegial, supportive or positive community-oriented way to use it as a descriptor of someone's project or process. It is, quite simply, an insult.

kludge |klo͞oj|(also kluge ) informal
noun
an ill-assorted collection of parts assembled to fulfill a particular purpose.

kludge noun \ˈklüj\
: an awkward or inferior computer system or program that is created quickly to solve a problem

A kludge (or kluge) is a workaround, quick-and-dirty solution, clumsy, inelegant, difficult to extend, hard to maintain yet effective and quick solution to a problem, and a rough synonym to the term "jury rig". This term is used in diverse fields such as computer science, aerospace engineering, internet slang, and evolutionary neuroscience

I recently restored and sold a 77 cb750f, and am nearly finished with a (former basket case) cb750k5.  This is a place to share, learn and enjoy.  I am grateful to and for 99+% of this site's membership.