Topic: Re: 650 overbore/550 engine hybrid underway...final stages

[paulages]

Sounds good Paul, it's great to have all that measuring behind you. Remember to be safe, just double check clearances when you time the cam and have the degree wheel in place. At 10 degrees or so before & after TDC gingerly push the valve down until it just contacts the piston and get the true reading from the dial indicator.

I'm sure you're all set to do this anyway, but the rest of us feel a part of this process too! Ha

thanks. believe me, i'm triple checking everything. wouldn't the clay method indicate the clearances at the closest point the valves are to the piston? i just followed dan's instructions: put clay on top of the piston, oil the head side, bolt the engine up, and run it through a few times. the valves left clear imprints, which i dissected down the middle to measure. i can't remember what the stock 650 lift is, but i imagine .098+ clearance will give me plenty of room even if i add left and duration. ideally, i'd have wanted to clay it with the cam i'll be using, but alas i don't have that yet.

[mlinder]

Did you just say 'alas', Paul?

Oh yeah, wheres the pics?

By the way, theres a "classic japanese motorcycle' ride this Saturday. Interested?

[paulages]

i'll get em up, and yes i probably am.

[paulages]

here you go, mark:
http://www.sohc4.us/forums/index.php?topic=26323.msg271962#msg271962
uploading more now...

[Pinhead]

Sounds good Paul, it's great to have all that measuring behind you. Remember to be safe, just double check clearances when you time the cam and have the degree wheel in place. At 10 degrees or so before & after TDC gingerly push the valve down until it just contacts the piston and get the true reading from the dial indicator.

I'm sure you're all set to do this anyway, but the rest of us feel a part of this process too! Ha

thanks. believe me, i'm triple checking everything. wouldn't the clay method indicate the clearances at the closest point the valves are to the piston? i just followed dan's instructions: put clay on top of the piston, oil the head side, bolt the engine up, and run it through a few times. the valves left clear imprints, which i dissected down the middle to measure. i can't remember what the stock 650 lift is, but i imagine .098+ clearance will give me plenty of room even if i add left and duration. ideally, i'd have wanted to clay it with the cam i'll be using, but alas i don't have that yet.

Is the .098" clearance with the stock pistons and stock cam?

[paulages]

Sounds good Paul, it's great to have all that measuring behind you. Remember to be safe, just double check clearances when you time the cam and have the degree wheel in place. At 10 degrees or so before & after TDC gingerly push the valve down until it just contacts the piston and get the true reading from the dial indicator.

I'm sure you're all set to do this anyway, but the rest of us feel a part of this process too! Ha

thanks. believe me, i'm triple checking everything. wouldn't the clay method indicate the clearances at the closest point the valves are to the piston? i just followed dan's instructions: put clay on top of the piston, oil the head side, bolt the engine up, and run it through a few times. the valves left clear imprints, which i dissected down the middle to measure. i can't remember what the stock 650 lift is, but i imagine .098+ clearance will give me plenty of room even if i add left and duration. ideally, i'd have wanted to clay it with the cam i'll be using, but alas i don't have that yet.

Is the .098" clearance with the stock pistons and stock cam?

stock cam, yes. stock pistons, no, or i wouldn't have bothered checking for clearances. the pistons are intended for a 750, but have been machined to fit the 650 head.

[paulages]

crank, pistons, rods and stator are balanced. the crank was almost perfect stock (not sure if that's always true, but might be nice to know for some of you 650 people). the I.D. of the 550 stator has been bored out to fit the 650 crank.

just have to weld up the oiler for the chains in the bottom case, drill and tap for the oil lines, and then build it up!

i have an idea for polishing the trans gear teeth a la hondaman's performance tips. i'm going to use some extra cases i have to mount the gears, then mount the engine into a frame, which will be upside down. with the oil pan removed, i'll be able to access all the gears for applying the lapping compound, and i'll use an electric motor to belt drive the gears via the clutch hub. this oughta work a little faster than doing it by hand.  i'll post pictures once i get the contraption setup.

[MRieck]

crank, pistons, rods and stator are balanced. the crank was almost perfect stock (not sure if that's always true, but might be nice to know for some of you 650 people). the I.D. of the 550 stator has been bored out to fit the 650 crank.

just have to weld up the oiler for the chains in the bottom case, drill and tap for the oil lines, and then build it up!

i have an idea for polishing the trans gear teeth a la hondaman's performance tips. i'm going to use some extra cases i have to mount the gears, then mount the engine into a frame, which will be upside down. with the oil pan removed, i'll be able to access all the gears for applying the lapping compound, and i'll use an electric motor to belt drive the gears via the clutch hub. this oughta work a little faster than doing it by hand.  i'll post pictures once i get the contraption setup.

Jerry Branch basically did the same thing you are thinking of Paul with Harley race transmissions years and years ago. Motor driven sets with compound. As a side note...I'm very much looking forward to the completion of your project. I admire your confidence and mechanical abilities.

[paulages]

crank, pistons, rods and stator are balanced. the crank was almost perfect stock (not sure if that's always true, but might be nice to know for some of you 650 people). the I.D. of the 550 stator has been bored out to fit the 650 crank.

just have to weld up the oiler for the chains in the bottom case, drill and tap for the oil lines, and then build it up!

i have an idea for polishing the trans gear teeth a la hondaman's performance tips. i'm going to use some extra cases i have to mount the gears, then mount the engine into a frame, which will be upside down. with the oil pan removed, i'll be able to access all the gears for applying the lapping compound, and i'll use an electric motor to belt drive the gears via the clutch hub. this oughta work a little faster than doing it by hand.  i'll post pictures once i get the contraption setup.

Jerry Branch basically did the same thing you are thinking of Paul with Harley race transmissions years and years ago. Motor driven sets with compound.

that's good to hear. i have to admit, i'm a bit nervous about getting valve lapping compound anywhere near the trans bearings, but i guess i'll just use old ones in case it gets messy at all. from what i remember concerning gear lash from my transmissions classes years ago, doing this seems a bit counter-intuitive, but i guess i'll trust the masters here.

[paulages]

by the way mike, do you think i am missing anything important here (aside from not having some better rods)? should i balance the clutch hub too?

[MRieck]

by the way mike, do you think i am missing anything important here (aside from not having some better rods)? should i balance the clutch hub too?

It's not a bad idea at all as long as the balance shop has a mandrel to hold the basket. They should.There are basically 2 types of imbalance which can effect the basket. One causes an up and movement. The other causes a wobble effect. It's nice to eliminate those forces.

[MRieck]

crank, pistons, rods and stator are balanced. the crank was almost perfect stock (not sure if that's always true, but might be nice to know for some of you 650 people). the I.D. of the 550 stator has been bored out to fit the 650 crank.

just have to weld up the oiler for the chains in the bottom case, drill and tap for the oil lines, and then build it up!

i have an idea for polishing the trans gear teeth a la hondaman's performance tips. i'm going to use some extra cases i have to mount the gears, then mount the engine into a frame, which will be upside down. with the oil pan removed, i'll be able to access all the gears for applying the lapping compound, and i'll use an electric motor to belt drive the gears via the clutch hub. this oughta work a little faster than doing it by hand.  i'll post pictures once i get the contraption setup.

Jerry Branch basically did the same thing you are thinking of Paul with Harley race transmissions years and years ago. Motor driven sets with compound.

that's good to hear. i have to admit, i'm a bit nervous about getting valve lapping compound anywhere near the trans bearings, but i guess i'll just use old ones in case it gets messy at all. from what i remember concerning gear lash from my transmissions classes years ago, doing this seems a bit counter-intuitive, but i guess i'll trust the masters here.

Branch fabricated a "box" to hold the trans shafts. You don't want to turn the shafts to fast. Very slow is best.  Obviously small pulley/shaft on the drive side and big one one the trans shaft. After 8 or 10 hours....perfection. Use real fine Clover. You don't need much either seeing how long you will be spinning it

[paulages]

well, i built the contraption tonight, but it definitely spins too fast. i need to figure out a way to slow it down considerably. i'll take pictures tomorrow. i had billdramp and another friend (and mlinder for a few minutes) down there scratching our heads figuring out how to mount the electric motor so that there would be enough tension on the belt. turned it on, and it spins great...but really fast. i'll try to fashion a rheostat tomorrow to control the voltage to the motor.

[paulages]

i also forgot to mention that dan took another .030" off of the shoulder of the piston achieve a total .050" piston to head clearance. i'll post a summary of all mods once it's done, as i just read back through this thread and found it quite confusing.

[mlinder]

told ya, lmfao.
Anyway, like I said, just put that larger pully wheel on it. It's like, twice as big. Will slow it down by half.

[paulages]

told ya, lmfao.
Anyway, like I said, just put that larger pully wheel on it. It's like, twice as big. Will slow it down by half.

  sorry, mark... i'll try to listen to you more when designing my mad scientist gadgets. i knew it would be too fast, but don't think the solution is a simple as the pulley. i'll try a simple rheostat, and see if i can get it down to a decent crawl.

[DarkRider]

ok..just wondering...what did the final displacement wind up being on this beast?

[mlinder]

told ya, lmfao.
Anyway, like I said, just put that larger pully wheel on it. It's like, twice as big. Will slow it down by half.

  sorry, mark... i'll try to listen to you more when designing my mad scientist gadgets. i knew it would be too fast, but don't think the solution is a simple as the pulley. i'll try a simple rheostat, and see if i can get it down to a decent crawl.

lmfao.
Don't listen to me.
I woke up this morning saying to myself "Jesus, Mark, are you effing dumb? A larger pulley will make it go faster you damned numbskull."

It really is as simple as a pulley though. But finding one that is smaller, that will fit that thing, might be a problem. Potentiometer or rheostat should work, but some brush motors will flip out at too low a voltage. Burn up. Not sure why.

Are you going down to your shop today? Thought I'd swing by and watch your progress for a bit. Gives me motivation to start on mine. Saw you on Burnside at about 11:00 PM last night.


/edit: Oh yeah, where do you buy gaskets from?

[paulages]

mark--i'm just gonna try a light dimmer. yeah, larger pulley on the motor would do that--garrett was trying to figure out how to mount the larger pulley to the clutch basket, but that seemed silly to me as the belt worked great with the basket alone.

yes, i'll be down there today. not sure when, though. gimme a call. about the gaskets--not sure of the best price. Z1 usually are best.

[paulages]

we ran the contraption today, and it worked great! i'm starting a thread about it with pictures and video.

[paulages]

i finally got my bottom case back from the machine shop. all that is left to do is tap the oil line into the right side of the head. i'll be starting a new topic photo documenting everything necessary to do this conversion. i'll probably wait until the engine is actually complete to do that though, so all of the info will be at the top of the thread. i'd hate to be someone trying to figure this out by reading through this thread...            

[FunJimmy]

That would be great!

Thanks Paul

[paulages]

by the way-- anybody on here get the dealer discount with megacycle and want to help a friend out? 

[paulages]

i'm not worrying too much about keeping the photos chronological at this point, as i'll organize them all in a new thread going step-by-step through everything without the in-between banter. here are some pictures of the oiler. the first pic is the 650 case stock:


this is the modified 550 case. the tower for the oiler was made out of solid round stock, drilled out and spotfaced to fit the o-ring. the left three quarters were tig welded, then we used high strength epoxy on the hard to reach parts.

[paulages]

i would just like to say that brand new NOS crank, rod, and trans bearings, rod nuts and bolts, seals, chains, circlips, etc. are:

1) such a beautiful thing.
2) such an expensive thing
3) the last stuff i was waiting for to put this engine together!