Author Topic: Exhaust and jetting question for roadracing  (Read 1313 times)

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Offline Kickstart

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Exhaust and jetting question for roadracing
« on: June 04, 2014, 10:38:41 pm »
I'm getting ready for next weekend's AHRMA race at Grattan raceway, and I'm a little concerned about my exhaust/jetting combination.  I think I know what to do, but I just wanted to run it by the experienced road racers here and get your opinions.

Background:
  • Novice racer (just started last year), with one race weekend plus two track days under my belt.
  • I'm riding a mostly stock 75 CB750F in the Novice Historic Production Heavyweight class (I know my bike technically doesn't meet the requirements, but I passed inspection last year and I think the earlier model K's have the advantage on the track anyway).... My bike is the 75/76 F model, not the 77/78 model
  • Stock airbox with a K&N filter
  • Replaced the stock 4-1  muffler with the MAC Megaphone from Dennis Kirk.  Just because I didn't want to risk scratching up my nice condition original muffler.
  • The MAC megaphone has a simple one baffle design... I decided to drill a bunch of holes in the front and end plates... why?... um, it seemed like a good idea  - 1 extra hp for every two hole, right?  :)  (see attached picture)   Ok, I admit this might not have been such a good idea

When I had the bike at a recent track day the throttle response felt fine but I get a lot of gurgling/popping noise on deceleration (not sure if it's actually backfiring though).

I'm thinking I should increase the main jet one size, richen up the idle mixture, and possibly drop the needle one notch.  Does this sound about right to the rest of you?  What would you do in this situation?

I'm basing this primarily on two posts I found:

One from Hondaman (increase the main jet and drop the needle):
http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php?topic=132591.msg1482619#msg1482619

And one from TwoTired (backfire out the exhaust on decell is usually too lean):
http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php?topic=76512.msg853075#msg853075

So, being a novice I'm really just looking to have fun on the track and improve my skills.  I'm not looking to maximize every last hp out of the bike.... yet (I'll save that after I get more experience and build a dedicated race bike).  My primary concern is not overheating the engine because I'm running too lean. But yeah, I also want the bike to run well.

Thanks,
Chris
« Last Edit: June 04, 2014, 10:42:50 pm by Kickstart »
- Chris
75' CB750F Orange flake (rider)
75' CB750F Blue (Project)
75' CB750F Painted black (Project)
No Reserve Racing #171 AHRMA

Offline Sam Green Racing

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Re: Exhaust and jetting question for roadracing
« Reply #1 on: June 05, 2014, 03:23:01 am »
The easy way round it is to take it to a dyno where you live and get it set up there.
If you don't have a dyno, do a plug chop on the road.
Grattan is only about 580 feet higher than Ambler so jetting before you get there should put you on the safe side.

Sam. ;)
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Offline turboguzzi

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Re: Exhaust and jetting question for roadracing
« Reply #2 on: June 05, 2014, 06:08:00 am »
backfires can often be related to leaking exhaust gaskets and fresh air getting sucked into the system by venturi action.

do a plug chop with fresh plugs to get an idea where you are with mixture.

+1 on dynoing, it will get to your basic main jet size quicker and in a more scientific way

Offline Kickstart

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Re: Exhaust and jetting question for roadracing
« Reply #3 on: June 05, 2014, 09:07:09 am »
Thanks...

Due to time constraints it's going to have to be a plug chop. I'll also try to err on the side of too rich, which I assume is safer than too lean.
When I build my dedicated race bike I'll definitely follow your suggestions and find a local dyno.

Carbs have to come off the bike to adjust the needle position, correct?  I've worked on cb750 carbs many times off the bike, but not while they were on the bike.  Main jet should be "easy" to change on the bike, but  I don't see how I can safely pull the slide out with them still attached to the bank, but maybe there's a trick I'm not aware of.

I shouldn't have an exhaust gasket leak, as I also replaced the header (using new gaskets) with a spare one I had (as I didn't want to damage my good stock one).
- Chris
75' CB750F Orange flake (rider)
75' CB750F Blue (Project)
75' CB750F Painted black (Project)
No Reserve Racing #171 AHRMA

Offline Jerry Rxman Griffin aka MuthaF'er

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Re: Exhaust and jetting question for roadracing
« Reply #4 on: June 05, 2014, 09:27:41 am »
Why do you say the earlier K's should beat the F? The F should have the edge on stability and the engine was brought back to and maybe above the earlier performance standards.

As far as your holes go I'd like to see one of these Mac baffles chopped in half to increase flow.

The needles can only be worked on with the carbs off. Are you lowering the needles thus leaning mid-range or you lowering the needle CLIP thus richening mid-range?

Why mess with the idle mixture? Surely you're not planning on going that slow  ;)

Why not just play with your mains initially and not mess with the needles? Go up one size to 110's and see how it reacts. If you do 2 changes how are you going to know which one benefits you or which one negatively affects you considering the needles and the mains overlap one another? Besides the mains are more top end rpm and I'd like to assume you'll use the transmission to keep it in the upper rpm/horsepower range.

Another thought - the stock muffler is NOT going to allow you to hear things like the Mac does (I have both). Perhaps some of those noises were already happening and you just didn't know it?
As of today 3/13/2012 my original owner 75 CB750F has made it through 3 wives, er EX-wives. Free at last.  ;-)

Offline Kickstart

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Re: Exhaust and jetting question for roadracing
« Reply #5 on: June 05, 2014, 02:49:18 pm »
Why do you say the earlier K's should beat the F? The F should have the edge on stability and the engine was brought back to and maybe above the earlier performance standards.
I believe (but admittedly don't know for a fact) that while the additional rake an trail provide stability at high speed, it works against the F in the turns.
I was also under the impression the early K's (69-71?) had more horsepower/better engine performance than our F models... ours were too restricted by EPA regulations by 75.  So the claimed increase compression ratio and higher RPM didn't make up for all the lost performance given up between the early to mid generation K's.

There are some advantages: The greatest advantage on the track over the K is probably the gear ratio changes.  but I'm not sure if the longer duration cam and lightened cam sprocket brought back enough top end power to best the early K's.
Rear disc is of little advantage on the track (at least for a novice like me - may be a different story for more advanced racers).

Don't get me wrong, I love my early F bikes (I've got three and plan to have them all restored at some point).  And I do think they are the more refined of the CB750 SOHC bikes... that have spoke wheels.

As far as your holes go I'd like to see one of these Mac baffles chopped in half to increase flow.
Ok.. so drilling those holes was a step in the right direction :)   However, I really shouldn't have done that unless I gave myself the time to tune for it properly.

The needles can only be worked on with the carbs off. Are you lowering the needles thus leaning mid-range or you lowering the needle CLIP thus richening mid-range?
Based on Hondaman's post (linked above) he actually suggests increasing the main jet and lowering the needle (not the clip position) when running less restrictive pipes (even though this seems counter intuitive)

Why mess with the idle mixture? Surely you're not planning on going that slow  ;)
I guess you didn't see me on the track last year :)   - yeah, probably not too important for the track, but I figure that could help with the gurgling/popping noise - and may help with initial acceleration from start.

Why not just play with your mains initially and not mess with the needles? Go up one size to 110's and see how it reacts. If you do 2 changes how are you going to know which one benefits you or which one negatively affects you considering the needles and the mains overlap one another? Besides the mains are more top end rpm and I'd like to assume you'll use the transmission to keep it in the upper rpm/horsepower range.
Yeah... I was thinking the same thing... I would focus on the mains (upper 3/4 of the throttle) and if I had time work my way down.

Another thought - the stock muffler is NOT going to allow you to hear things like the Mac does (I have both). Perhaps some of those noises were already happening and you just didn't know it?
Good point. I'm not sure if it's actually backfiring (it's definitely not like a "bang" backfire - just gurgling/popping)... and since the throttle response seems fine, maybe I should leave well enough alone.  Do you also hear a lot more gurgling/popping during deceleration on your bike with the MAC exhaust?

Per Hondaman's statement in the link above: 
"in all this, note that the exhaust pipe backpressure plays very, very little into the game until it either disappears altogether (ths increasing overlap scavenge into the pipes, losing it from the cylinders), or becomes so much that the engine can't spit out the burned gases. In other words: from a full set of 4-4 pies to a straight-thru 4-1 header collector with drag shortie length, there is less than 3% possible change, with the stock cam. So, don't fret the exhaust pipe situation."
He was referring to a CB500/550, but I suspect the same applies to the CB750.

Thanks!

- Chris
75' CB750F Orange flake (rider)
75' CB750F Blue (Project)
75' CB750F Painted black (Project)
No Reserve Racing #171 AHRMA