Author Topic: HELP CB750 K1 Hard to Shift when warm  (Read 4848 times)

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Offline Hellcat

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HELP CB750 K1 Hard to Shift when warm
« on: July 05, 2014, 12:43:01 pm »
Hello, This is my first post on this forum. I've been almost striclty a Honda twins guy with bikes from the 60's 70's and usually hang out on the hondatwins.net forum. However, I have come across several 4's I couldn't pass up over the years and I'm just finishing up my first ever cb750.

The problem is that when the bike is running it starts to shift hard and after approx. 5 mins of running becomes almost impossible to shift. I have been all through the shift linkage behind the left side panel and everything is good. I am very familiar with how the shifting works on the twins and believe this bike is similar.

When the bike is off it shifts through all the gears flawlessly. This has me thinking clutch/oil issue. It acts as if the clutch isn't releasing and there is too much pressure on the gears to allow them to shift when running.

The clutch seems to work fine as far as that is concerned. I can disengage the clutch and it will idle fine even in gear but it just won't shift when it get hot which makes me think oil?? Any help is appreciated.

Also I removed the clutch basket and drilled new additional oiling holes as recommended by hondaman on other topics and I watched the oil flow out of the hole on the clutch side when the bike was running. It was a slow steady stream that it didn't shoot out but just flowed out is this normal or should it actually shoot out on the floor with the bike running/revving and cover off?

Pic of the bike currently.

Offline Hellcat

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Re: HELP CB750 K1 Hard to Shift when warm
« Reply #1 on: July 05, 2014, 02:50:24 pm »
As I'm looking into fixing this issue more questions are arising. I was going to buy new clutch plates in case I have warped discs (30k miles should need replacing anyways). However the parts fiche shows the discs in a strange order that wouldn't even work in my basket (my basket ends and starts with an outer disc #4) and I'm reading honda used different clutches in these bikes?

So how do I know what I need to order?

The fiche is also showing an extra piece behind the last disc (#3 on the k1 clutch breakdown) i don't have this what is it and do i need it?

« Last Edit: July 05, 2014, 07:23:31 pm by Hellcat »

DH

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Re: HELP CB750 K1 Hard to Shift when warm
« Reply #2 on: July 05, 2014, 04:27:32 pm »
http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php?topic=78643.0

Have you seen this whole post? It deals with oil pressure/o ring issues that are clutch related. Very well written.
maybe? :)
« Last Edit: July 05, 2014, 04:35:30 pm by DH »

Offline Hellcat

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Re: HELP CB750 K1 Hard to Shift when warm
« Reply #3 on: July 05, 2014, 05:20:15 pm »
Hi DH thanks for the reply. Yes I have seen that post which is why I drilled extra holes into my basket. I will be tearing into my oil pump next week to see what it look like.

This is why I asked the question if the oil from my clutch side should shoot out or just steadily flow out of the oil hole. Mine just flows out slowly not so slow that it drips but just fast enough to keep a steady flow on the clutch basket. I feel like this should have a little more pressure behind it.

Still need help figuring out what I need for friction plates since the fiche is confusing the crap out of me?

I will report back when I check the pump.
« Last Edit: July 05, 2014, 05:22:31 pm by Hellcat »

Offline HondaMan

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Re: HELP CB750 K1 Hard to Shift when warm
« Reply #4 on: July 07, 2014, 10:23:47 am »
Hmmm...this is one of those situations where my book would "walk you through" the issues with the clutch.
First: somewhere around 2004 Honda "purged" their online parts diagrams, which in English means they removed the 5 variants of the clutch and show only 2 different ones, now. That's most likely why yours is being hard to match up.

The K1 clutch (your bike is gorgeous, BTW!) came in 3 variants. The first was the K0 version, which has a thin stamped-steel plate on the top of the stack. Some of these are held in place with a wire circle that clips into the top plate. This sheet metal piece sometimes warped, causing clutch plate drag on the top 2 plates. It can usually be removed with little more than just a slight clutch readjustment of the lifter when you put the cover back on.

The next version was similar to the K0, but without the sheet metal plate, and the first plate in the back of the clutch is a steel one that has the tiny oil dimples on just one side: the other side of it is not machined, so it is obvious which way it goes in. Apparently this was not obvious enough for some Honda mechanics of the day, as there were some bulletins (they were called "Shop Bulletins", not "Service Bulletins") about how to put these in the correct direction. These clutches (and the K0 above) had 6 cork plates.

The last version, when the K1 was made in the New Factory, is a clutch that uses the top aluminum pressure plate as the last steel plate, and the top steel plate is gone. This version has 7 cork plates. The hub is slightly longer than the earlier versions. This version remained until the F0 bikes,

All of these clutches had too few oil holes in them by today's standards, because today's oils have almost no zinc in them. Also, the tried-and-true mineral oils of the past are long gone today, which was part & parcel of the clutch design. So, to work around this, additional holes need to be added, or at least the existing holes altered (per my book's pictures, otherwise hard to explain) to capture more oil.

Today we have some confusion, too: the superbikes out there have more plates in them, and they happen to be the same size as ours, but thinner. The stock plates are 0.143" thick when new, and at 0.131" are considered worn. At 0.128" they typically slip pretty badly. The superbike plates, which fit in perfectly, are 0.131" thick when brand new(!), so they often don't work well in our bikes. In addition, Honda screwed up their part numbers in 2008-2009, so many shops have cork plates from the post-1976 bikes mixed into the supply for these bikes: these plates are thicker yet, with slant-cut cork blocks on their plates - this was the CB500/550 clutch late, revisited. These will slip in the 750 clutch.

That's just some of the history: now, to the problem.  :)

If the clutch drags, the #1 thing to check is: your oil. Is you have a high-detergent oil, or a too-light-weight oil, or a low-zinc oil, yes, the clutch will drag. Reason: the cork will not let go of the steel when you pull the lever. This is easy to test: get the right oil, change it and try again after 50+ miles. The right oil is: a made-for-motorcycles oil (NOT the "V-Twin" oils out there, long story...  >:(  ) that has zinc. The characteristics are:
#1 - low detergent: if it says on the label "prevents sludge", don't buy it. Your bike won't sludge, anyway (no engine actually does...).
#2 - must have zinc. The EPA, in a VERY crooked 'business deal' with BMW, passed a regulation outlawing zinc in all oils so their platinum catalytic converter could be imported to the USA, in the early 2000s. That's all I'm gonna say about it now, or I'll get mad....the result is: all flat-tappet engines and all wet-clutch systems immediately suffered damage and poor performance from this issue. It wasn't until 2010 that manufacturers found a way around this regulation, and are now beginning to offer us good oils again. To find zinc now, you can either add it to the oil as an additive, or maybe try the new motorcycles oils from Vavoline, or look for diesel oils, which have less suds and more zinc (and were exempted from this ridiculous law).
#3 - the 750 MUST use 20w50 oils, unless you're riding in winter. Another long story I won't put here, but a mistake by Honda in 1973 led to the confusion where owner's manuals and labels on the bikes came noted 10w40 oils. DON'T use 10w40 oil in your K1.

If all these things fail, you may have a warped cork plate, steel plate, or top plate (aka "pressure plate"). If it comes to that, you'll have to replace a part or two. At 30k miles, my clutch was finally smoothing out so it DIDN'T grab anymore, and it lasted to over 90k miles with hard use and 20w50 oils. So, don't rush to change it, just yet?
See SOHC4shop@gmail.com for info about the gadgets I make for these bikes.

The demons are repulsed when a man does good. Use that.
Blood is thicker than water, but motor oil is thicker yet...so, don't mess with my SOHC4, or I might have to hurt you.
Hondaman's creed: "Bikers are family. Treat them accordingly."

Link to Hondaman Ignition: http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php?topic=67543.0

Link to My CB750 Book: https://www.lulu.com/search?adult_audience_rating=00&page=1&pageSize=10&q=my+cb750+book

Link to website: www.SOHC4shop.com

Offline Hellcat

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Re: HELP CB750 K1 Hard to Shift when warm
« Reply #5 on: July 08, 2014, 03:19:48 pm »
Thanks everyone for the replies. I have some 20-50 oil ready to go into the bike. However, since oil is suspect here I decided to have a look at my oil pump. Found a crack in the housing so project is on hold until new oil pump arrives...


Offline Tews19

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Re: HELP CB750 K1 Hard to Shift when warm
« Reply #6 on: July 08, 2014, 06:23:47 pm »
Did you order a new one? I could look to see if I have one if you didn't order yet.
1969 Honda CB750... Basket case
1970 Honda CB750 survivor.

Offline HondaMan

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Re: HELP CB750 K1 Hard to Shift when warm
« Reply #7 on: July 08, 2014, 10:20:25 pm »
Thanks everyone for the replies. I have some 20-50 oil ready to go into the bike. However, since oil is suspect here I decided to have a look at my oil pump. Found a crack in the housing so project is on hold until new oil pump arrives...



Yeow!
See SOHC4shop@gmail.com for info about the gadgets I make for these bikes.

The demons are repulsed when a man does good. Use that.
Blood is thicker than water, but motor oil is thicker yet...so, don't mess with my SOHC4, or I might have to hurt you.
Hondaman's creed: "Bikers are family. Treat them accordingly."

Link to Hondaman Ignition: http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php?topic=67543.0

Link to My CB750 Book: https://www.lulu.com/search?adult_audience_rating=00&page=1&pageSize=10&q=my+cb750+book

Link to website: www.SOHC4shop.com

Offline Hellcat

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Re: HELP CB750 K1 Hard to Shift when warm
« Reply #8 on: July 18, 2014, 06:50:57 pm »
Update:

1. New oil pump installed along with new oem o-rings.
2. Changed oil to 20w50 

No change in the shifting from the above. It is almost impossible to shift while bike is running.

With the clutch pack removed and the bike running it shifts through the gears just fine so it has to be something clutch related i'm thinking. I've attached several pictures of my clutch along with a video showing oil flow. My plates are not warped from what i can tell (laid on flat surface). I do not have a manual so I don't know the specs for my plates/springs. I would assume that if they were out of spec that would cause slipping but that is not my problem. I feel like my problem is that the clutch doesn't slip enough to allow me to shift?

Please let me know if you see anything wrong with this clutch pack (who knows who has been in here before).
















Offline Tews19

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Re: HELP CB750 K1 Hard to Shift when warm
« Reply #9 on: July 18, 2014, 06:56:36 pm »
I had the same problem in a K4 750... swapped out the springs to stock and it was fixed. The guy who sold me the bike couldn't figure out the problem but springs were the culprit. ..
1969 Honda CB750... Basket case
1970 Honda CB750 survivor.

Offline Hellcat

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Re: HELP CB750 K1 Hard to Shift when warm
« Reply #10 on: July 18, 2014, 07:15:11 pm »
I don't think I have #15 or #16 are these required for mine or an early year clutch only?

Are the part #'s listed for the 1971 K1 springs and plates on Honda's Fiche correct for my clutch? I've read there are so many changes in these years I wasn't sure.

« Last Edit: July 18, 2014, 07:20:42 pm by Hellcat »

Offline Tews19

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Re: HELP CB750 K1 Hard to Shift when warm
« Reply #11 on: July 18, 2014, 07:19:07 pm »
If you can wait till tomorrow I will remove the clutch cover on a K0 engine I have. I will give you the springs. Try them out. If it has the washer I will throw that in too.
1969 Honda CB750... Basket case
1970 Honda CB750 survivor.

Offline Hellcat

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Re: HELP CB750 K1 Hard to Shift when warm
« Reply #12 on: July 18, 2014, 07:24:07 pm »
Thanks Tews I can't say no to that!

DH

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Re: HELP CB750 K1 Hard to Shift when warm
« Reply #13 on: July 18, 2014, 07:34:52 pm »
 I haven't read the whole thread but, have you changed the o ring for the countershaft oiler yet? As I understand it, the o ring flattens out and gets hard over time, which in turn lets oil pressure escape, leading to shifting issues...

Offline HondaMan

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Re: HELP CB750 K1 Hard to Shift when warm
« Reply #14 on: July 18, 2014, 10:12:17 pm »
You MUST have both #15 and #16 in the hub, or the spacing will be such that the clutch cannot lift the pressure plate to free the plates. I've seen these parts lost in many engines where a PO did something wrong.  :(

I bought some of each last year to fix another such bike: Honda still sold the parts then. I imagine they fit several other more modern bikes, too?
See SOHC4shop@gmail.com for info about the gadgets I make for these bikes.

The demons are repulsed when a man does good. Use that.
Blood is thicker than water, but motor oil is thicker yet...so, don't mess with my SOHC4, or I might have to hurt you.
Hondaman's creed: "Bikers are family. Treat them accordingly."

Link to Hondaman Ignition: http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php?topic=67543.0

Link to My CB750 Book: https://www.lulu.com/search?adult_audience_rating=00&page=1&pageSize=10&q=my+cb750+book

Link to website: www.SOHC4shop.com

Offline Hellcat

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Re: HELP CB750 K1 Hard to Shift when warm
« Reply #15 on: August 06, 2014, 02:58:43 pm »
Update: I've replaced the o-ring under the countershaft oiler as recommended (had to drill the heads off the screws to get it off). I've also sourced and installed the #15 and #16 washer. Still no change the bike will not shift when running.

I'm very sure it's clutch drag that is still my problem. The bike wants to pull forward with the clutch disengaged while in gear.

As a last resort before splitting the cases I'm going to buy new clutch plates. I was going to buy oem but the friction discs are $20  :o .....anyone see any issues buying new oem steel plates and aftermarket friction discs or can that just create more problems? I will buy all new oem if it makes sense.

Offline HondaMan

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Re: HELP CB750 K1 Hard to Shift when warm
« Reply #16 on: August 06, 2014, 10:58:54 pm »
Update: I've replaced the o-ring under the countershaft oiler as recommended (had to drill the heads off the screws to get it off). I've also sourced and installed the #15 and #16 washer. Still no change the bike will not shift when running.

I'm very sure it's clutch drag that is still my problem. The bike wants to pull forward with the clutch disengaged while in gear.

As a last resort before splitting the cases I'm going to buy new clutch plates. I was going to buy oem but the friction discs are $20  :o .....anyone see any issues buying new oem steel plates and aftermarket friction discs or can that just create more problems? I will buy all new oem if it makes sense.

Just watch out for 2 things on the aftermarket plates:

1. Some of them are too thin, being about 0.131"-0.128" when brand new (which is approaching worn-out thickness in this clutch's plates). These work poorly unless some other mods are made to the clutch: I've got posts elsewhere on how to try to "fix" that issue. The ones you want will be about 0.141"-0.138" thick. The steel plates should have dimples in them, not smooth surfaces, so as to trap some oil to help with release when the lever is pulled. The superbike versions of these today do not, and some of those, too, have found their way into "our" parts supplies.
2. If you buy Honda's own, make SURE they are NOT the slant-cut cork plates. Their part number systems got mixed up a few years back, and these plates got subbed into the CB750K0-K6 inventories. Yours should have square-cut cork blocks on the friction plates. In 2008 I bought 2 full sets of cork plates from Honda, and all of them were the WRONG plates in the RIGHT bags. I think I still have some of them around, yet...only the very top plate of the post-1975 bikes used the slant-cut cork plate.
See SOHC4shop@gmail.com for info about the gadgets I make for these bikes.

The demons are repulsed when a man does good. Use that.
Blood is thicker than water, but motor oil is thicker yet...so, don't mess with my SOHC4, or I might have to hurt you.
Hondaman's creed: "Bikers are family. Treat them accordingly."

Link to Hondaman Ignition: http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php?topic=67543.0

Link to My CB750 Book: https://www.lulu.com/search?adult_audience_rating=00&page=1&pageSize=10&q=my+cb750+book

Link to website: www.SOHC4shop.com

Offline Hellcat

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Re: HELP CB750 K1 Hard to Shift when warm
« Reply #17 on: August 19, 2014, 02:58:20 pm »
@HondaMan I received 7 spiral friction plates from my local honda dealer. I tried to explain the situation about needing the square plates and they were willing to take mine back but weren't happy about it. Since there are 2 different plates listed (early and later engines specified). Do I need 7 of the early plates even though they say there were used on engines prior to mine? Or are the early plates a different thickness that won't work in my basket?

Dealer said he would call Honda and have them check their warehouse to see if the other part # (for the earlier engine) were square.

On a different note I did put in new oem inner plates and I was able to ride the bike around although the shifting is still very hard and impossible when going slow. The bike shifts perfectly when on the center stand with the back wheel off the ground spinning freely. There is definitely way too much clutch drag going on.

Offline Hellcat

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Re: HELP CB750 K1 Hard to Shift when warm
« Reply #18 on: September 02, 2014, 05:02:43 pm »
Well after a couple hundred on new oem plates and lots of hours of frustration I was still stuck with same problem. I also tried sanding all groves on the basket smooth (grooves weren't that bad but had to try).

As a final effort before I just unloaded the bike and admitted defeat, I bought a used complete clutch pack from ebay....installed today and bike shifts perfect?!? All shifting issues are gone and I can even find neutral easily sitting still....crazy but I'm thrilled it's fixed!