Author Topic: Swing Arm Bushing replacement  (Read 39327 times)

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Offline jtb

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Re: Swing Arm Bushing replacement
« Reply #25 on: June 23, 2006, 04:52:17 AM »
Sean, I pounded, pounded, bounced the damn thing off the floor and pounded some more on mine.  Finally, Mike told me to send him the damned thing.  He finally got them out, but said it was a bear.  PO's had probably never lubed.  (guess I better go out and lube it now  ;D ;D)
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1985 V65 Sabre
1986 VFR 750 (gone but missed greatly)

Offline Orcinus

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Re: Swing Arm Bushing replacement
« Reply #26 on: June 23, 2006, 07:15:10 AM »
As to all the pounding...  I've had good luck with applying a little heat to the outside and pressing the bushings out with a hydraulic press.  I will admit though that I've done this on other industrial equipment, I haven't done my swingarm yet although I don't see why it wouldn't work the same.  You usually wind up with your parts in better condition than beating them out too.  I also vote for Oil impregnated bronze.  I've had better luck with it in similar usage than bearing bronze.
Currently '77 CB750F2
Formerly '73 CL-350 Twin, '81 GS-650E, '83 VF-750C Magna (till some sum#$%* stole it)

Offline scondon

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Re: Swing Arm Bushing replacement
« Reply #27 on: June 23, 2006, 09:28:10 AM »
Thanks for sharing my pain,jtb. I feel better now :)

And thanks Orcinus. I'm going to take my swingarm to the machine shop and see if they can't punch it out with a press.
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Offline mick750F

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Re: Swing Arm Bushing replacement
« Reply #28 on: June 23, 2006, 10:29:28 AM »
   I guess the older K's must use a different type of bearing than the F models. The pivot shaft in the F swingarms I've done do not slide out and must be pounded out, pretty much destroying the old bearings and pivot shaft in the process. I'm sure this has to do with age and not getting lubed.....EVER.....just wonder if anyone else has encountered this when changing swingarm bearings/bushings.

   When I replaced mine in my '78F the pivot shaft came out smooth but tight after a couple of light taps. I removed the composite bushings by carefully cutting them most of the way through with a hand held hacksaw blade and then tapping them out after heating the swingarm. The new bronze ones were then pressed in.

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Offline HondaMan

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Re: Swing Arm Bushing replacement
« Reply #29 on: June 23, 2006, 11:23:22 AM »
As to all the pounding...  I've had good luck with applying a little heat to the outside and pressing the bushings out with a hydraulic press.  I will admit though that I've done this on other industrial equipment, I haven't done my swingarm yet although I don't see why it wouldn't work the same.  You usually wind up with your parts in better condition than beating them out too.  I also vote for Oil impregnated bronze.  I've had better luck with it in similar usage than bearing bronze.

The 941/943 bearing bronze is oil-impregnated bronze. It's also for shock loads, as bushings. That's why I use it.
See SOHC4shop@gmail.com for info about the gadgets I make for these bikes.

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Re: Swing Arm Bushing replacement
« Reply #30 on: June 23, 2006, 02:39:55 PM »
Hondaman, please sign me up for a set.

Does the fact that the 400F is quite a bit smaller and lighter than all your guys's 750's have any bearing on the wear and tear of the swingarm bushings.  MAybe my bike wouldn't benefit - I don't know.

But I do know I like the sound of bronze bushings for that swingarm.  I haven't quite got to the point where I've removed the swingarm (almost though) but there's a great guy on ebay who has one for sale for reasonable dough.  Maybe I could buy that one and get it retrofitted by you (assuming you win the lathe) and then install it on my bike. 

Regardless, I think it's marvelous that someone with your background and experience takes an interest in helping all of us improve the quality, performance, and safety of our old(er) motorcycles.  Thanks a lot.

Offline Orcinus

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Re: Swing Arm Bushing replacement
« Reply #31 on: June 23, 2006, 04:01:39 PM »
      Any reason, besides price, to choose bronze bushings over needle bearings?

I believe Hondaman will back me up on this (my bearing knowledge may be a tad rusty...) but a well fitted, lubricated bushing has more contact surface than the equivilent needle bearing.  This will result in less flex in the swingarm (always a good thing) and a higher load capacity.

Orcinus
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Formerly '73 CL-350 Twin, '81 GS-650E, '83 VF-750C Magna (till some sum#$%* stole it)

Offline merc2dogs

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Re: Swing Arm Bushing replacement
« Reply #32 on: June 23, 2006, 05:59:09 PM »
[I believe Hondaman will back me up on this (my bearing knowledge may be a tad rusty...) but a well fitted, lubricated bushing has more contact surface than the equivilent needle bearing.  This will result in less flex in the swingarm (always a good thing) and a higher load capacity.

Orcinus

  That's also the reason they use plain bearings in engines, they stand up to shock loads better, for years the highest precision lathes used bronze bushings instead of ball or roller because they wouldn't 'imprint' the material being turned, and provided a better finish.

Ken.
 

Offline merc2dogs

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Re: Swing Arm Bushing replacement
« Reply #33 on: June 23, 2006, 08:29:50 PM »
this post got me a bit curious, so being a friday night with no plans I yanked the swingarm on mine, the bushings in mine are steel, (passed all steel tests, spark, magnet) assume some po decided to avoid having to change them for a long while.
 I never noticed any serious play in mine, but after tearing it down noticed that the pivot tube has galled, wondering if anyone knows a replacement source, or has an idea of how far I could turn it down without increasing wear from the smaller diameter?

 checked out the bushing and it is nicely concentric, chucked up with a dti on the toolpost only wiggled the needle.

  also, what's the opinion on making a slightly longer bushing to spread the load a bit?

  ken.

Offline Orcinus

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Re: Swing Arm Bushing replacement
« Reply #34 on: June 23, 2006, 08:46:46 PM »
Steel?!?  I'm really surprise that your swingarm didn't gall up solid and sieze.  Not surprised that it's still concentric, it's probably harder than the pin.  I'm afraid that I'm only a machinist and not an engineer, so I'm not sure how making the bushings longer would affect it's function.  I work for the Gov't, I'm not supposed to modify, just manufacture...  ;D  Hopefully, one of the more knowledgable chaps will come forth with a educated opinion.
Currently '77 CB750F2
Formerly '73 CL-350 Twin, '81 GS-650E, '83 VF-750C Magna (till some sum#$%* stole it)

Offline HondaMan

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Re: Swing Arm Bushing replacement
« Reply #35 on: June 23, 2006, 10:02:00 PM »
Here's some installation tips. This method is easier than the pounding method, which often distorts the bushings if they don't fit well, and it's easier to adjust the "setback" distance, which is .240" to .270" from the end of the swingarm tube.

The first picture shows me using some 5/8" allthread rod and nuts and washers to pull the bearing into the swingarm. The second picture shows that the washer is removed on the end where the bushing is being "set back", and the nut alone just barely fits into the tube, allowing a nice, controlled setback by pulling the nut on the OPPOSITE end of the swingarm's tube. The bushing was "frozen" in the freezer before this was done.

Note: Longer bushings won't improve anything, because the bearing surface of the shaft is the same as the bushings.

See SOHC4shop@gmail.com for info about the gadgets I make for these bikes.

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Offline Terry in Australia

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Re: Swing Arm Bushing replacement
« Reply #36 on: June 23, 2006, 10:14:31 PM »
Honda used steel bushes in some of the later bikes, from memory, my 1977 F2 had steel, as opposed to plastic, bushes before I replaced them. Interestingly, I make my own swingarm bushes too, from oil impregnated bronze, or phosphor bronze when I can get it, and like Puppytrax mentioned, there's a real requirement to clean up the pivot pin on a lathe as they will wear on the "load faces", as the pin doesn't rotate. (the swingarm bush rotates around it)

I use a specially built electric belt linisher arrangement against the swing arm pivot pin rotating at a slow speed in the lathe to effect this. Don't bother replacing your bushes if you don't do this first, you're just wasting your time, it'd be like putting a new hub bearing on a worn out axle.

The first set of bushes I made in my lathe are still sitting on a shelf because when I bored them, they were a couple of thou too loose, so I made another set, only to find that when I froze them and installed them, they were way too tight by a couple of thou, so rather than destroy them trying to get them out again I used a brake cylinder hone and some valve cutting paste to hone them to spec, which took forever, then longer again to remove the remnants of the paste. I first tried an adjustable reamer, but was not happy with the result as it was too coarse.

Bottom line was, had I used the original ones that felt sloppy before I installed them, they would have actually been a nice snug fit. To install them, I used a length of threaded rod with two short lengths of shouldered alloy bar on either end to sit against and inside the new bushes, then just wound them in with a nut on either end, which is much better then whacking them in, in my opinion. Just make sure you machine the old pivots if you have to use them.

Oh, and the needle roller kits that you see on Ebay and accessory shops are just garbage, there's about 10 thou slop in those suckers when installed, so don't waste your money. Cheers, Terry. ;D
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Offline Jerry Rxman Griffin aka MuthaF'er

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Re: Swing Arm Bushing replacement
« Reply #37 on: June 23, 2006, 11:20:19 PM »
Terry has some interesting info pertaining to his 1977 F2 and steel bushings. While the parts fiche from Service Honda does not mention the material these bushings are made of, I found the following parts numbers applicable to the following models.

52108-300-300 for K0, K1, K2, K3, K4, K5
52108-457-300 for (as they list them) 76K, 77K, 78K, F0, F1, F2, F3
 
No separate listing for 75K ? Whats the deal here? Was this also K5? The F0 (75 SS) is always difficult to find. It's always listed as a K0 750 Super Sport. A FYI for all you 75 SS guys out there when you go to the Honda shop and they can't figure it out.

With this in mind are we to deduce that K0 through K5 are plastic and 76K, 77K, 78K and the F's are all steel??
In my mind the later bikes would have a less likelihood of the wear issues that the early K's had but nevertheless should be looked at when taking the back end apart.

Jerry
As of today 3/13/2012 my original owner 75 CB750F has made it through 3 wives, er EX-wives. Free at last.  ;-)

Offline puppytrax

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Re: Swing Arm Bushing replacement
« Reply #38 on: June 24, 2006, 03:45:06 AM »
Terry -

Are you planning on offering CB500/550 swingarm bushings too???

On the threaded rod installation tool: If you're freezing the bushings and heating the swingarm, that is going to take a long time to thread in...and the parts will no longer be cold/hot...might be better to just take it to a truck repair shop and have them press them in...

Or you could add a hydraulic press to your toolbox and offer a complete rebuild service...  :D
« Last Edit: June 24, 2006, 03:49:48 AM by puppytrax »
...stock 1972 CB500 '500 Four' undergoing re-assembly...
...Stock 1972 CL450 'Scrambler' also being re-assembled...

Offline Terry in Australia

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Re: Swing Arm Bushing replacement
« Reply #39 on: June 24, 2006, 02:17:11 PM »
Terry -

Are you planning on offering CB500/550 swingarm bushings too???

On the threaded rod installation tool: If you're freezing the bushings and heating the swingarm, that is going to take a long time to thread in...and the parts will no longer be cold/hot...might be better to just take it to a truck repair shop and have them press them in...

Or you could add a hydraulic press to your toolbox and offer a complete rebuild service...  :D

Nah mate, I'm too busy keeping up with oil cooler orders right now, and I can't compete with the price of the crappy (?)  bushes on Ebay. Hondaman is closer to most of you guys, so he should continue with this enterprise, just make sure you send him your pivot tube so he can skim it back to round again and match it to his bushes.

I freeze the bushes but don't heat the swingarm, because a. threading the bushes in as per my previous instructions is slow(ish) like you suggest, and b. the heat generated by the warmed up swing arm tends to quickly thaw the bushes, making them expand, which is not a good thing if they're only half way in, so I just leave the swing arm at room temperature.

I don't like pressing them in either, as you can deform them if you're not careful, even though that's a better option than pounding them in. (uuurgh) Cheers, Terry. ;D
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Offline scondon

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Re: Swing Arm Bushing replacement
« Reply #40 on: June 24, 2006, 03:28:37 PM »
    Just want to add my thanks, Hondaman, for your timely and well drawn out post.  Also want to add what I found while getting my F2 swingarm ready to install caged needle bearing kit. This is just for anyone interested and not meant to add to, or conflict with, any previous posts.

    This is my 3rd swingarm bearing replacement, and third time was indeed a charm. I had only owned this bike for the last 4 years of it's well used life. I greased the swingarm when I bought it and several more times since. FINALLY! A pivot shaft that came out with only several light taps ;D ;D ;D

    I bought a hacksaw with a 12" blade and made the two cuts, bearings came out easily. Thanks again for that H-man.

    I checked the bearings with a magnet before removal and the magnet stuck tight to them. When I removed them they were just the same composite plastic that has been in all the F swingarms so far(F1-2-3).

     On to the caged needle bearing. I went on Ebay to see if the set I'd bought were the same as the "crappy" ones that Terry referred to. I could only find one for for the Kawasaki Z1 900 but, surprise surprise, that kit has 4 caged bearings and the one I have for CB750 has only two. The caged bearings appear to be exactly half the length of stock and I'm thinking that I can fit two in EACH side of the swingarm. Gonna make a trip to Bearing Engineering on Monday and see if I can't get a couple more.  I've used this same kit twice before and so far the swingarms are tight and handle well, but damn, "half the length of stock!!??".

     Anyway, here's a pic of the old stockers and the new caged bearing kit.  Also a link to the Z1 kit that has 4 bearings.


http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/SWINGARM-BEARING-KIT-Kawasaki-Z1-900-Kz900-LTD_W0QQitemZ4647673840QQihZ002QQcategoryZ35585QQssPageNameZWD1VQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem
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Offline puppytrax

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Re: Swing Arm Bushing replacement
« Reply #41 on: June 24, 2006, 03:33:08 PM »
The $$$ will depend on how many sets I have to make, so let me know over the next few weeks and I'll lay a plan.

I have a 72 CB500; I'd be interested...if you're doing 500/550's...   ;D

I have two spare 550 swingarms [74; 76] if you'd like one for measurements...I'd have to check the Fiche to see if they are the same...

72 and 74 have the same swingarm, collar, bolt, and bush...the 76 are all four different...Well, good for me - I have a spare for my 57xx mile 72...   ;)
« Last Edit: June 24, 2006, 03:52:23 PM by puppytrax »
...stock 1972 CB500 '500 Four' undergoing re-assembly...
...Stock 1972 CL450 'Scrambler' also being re-assembled...

Offline MRieck

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Re: Swing Arm Bushing replacement
« Reply #42 on: June 24, 2006, 03:37:32 PM »
    Just want to add my thanks, Hondaman, for your timely and well drawn out post.  Also want to add what I found while getting my F2 swingarm ready to install caged needle bearing kit. This is just for anyone interested and not meant to add to, or conflict with, any previous posts.

    This is my 3rd swingarm bearing replacement, and third time was indeed a charm. I had only owned this bike for the last 4 years of it's well used life. I greased the swingarm when I bought it and several more times since. FINALLY! A pivot shaft that came out with only several light taps ;D ;D ;D

    I bought a hacksaw with a 12" blade and made the two cuts, bearings came out easily. Thanks again for that H-man.

    I checked the bearings with a magnet before removal and the magnet stuck tight to them. When I removed them they were just the same composite plastic that has been in all the F swingarms so far(F1-2-3).

     On to the caged needle bearing. I went on Ebay to see if the set I'd bought were the same as the "crappy" ones that Terry referred to. I could only find one for for the Kawasaki Z1 900 but, surprise surprise, that kit has 4 caged bearings and the one I have for CB750 has only two. The caged bearings appear to be exactly half the length of stock and I'm thinking that I can fit two in EACH side of the swingarm. Gonna make a trip to Bearing Engineering on Monday and see if I can't get a couple more.  I've used this same kit twice before and so far the swingarms are tight and handle well, but damn, "half the length of stock!!??".

     Anyway, here's a pic of the old stockers and the new caged bearing kit.  Also a link to the Z1 kit that has 4 bearings.


http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/SWINGARM-BEARING-KIT-Kawasaki-Z1-900-Kz900-LTD_W0QQitemZ4647673840QQihZ002QQcategoryZ35585QQssPageNameZWD1VQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem
Sean, I've had a needle bearing kit in my bike for over 10 years and the fit is good. 30 year old shocks and shock bushings can create just as many problems as worn swingarm bushings. Just replacing swingarm bushings and leaving in garbage shocks and worn out shock bushings is like shoveling sand against the tide.....you won't get anywhere. ;)
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Offline scondon

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Re: Swing Arm Bushing replacement
« Reply #43 on: June 24, 2006, 04:41:01 PM »
After stumbling about in KaceyF2's "bushing" post I am now going to replace mine :D :D

   I wouldn't dream of letting 30 year old shocks supply the handling to the engine surrounding that pristine head you sent. I have Progressives on the first bike, this current one has Koni's.
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Offline merc2dogs

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Re: Swing Arm Bushing replacement
« Reply #44 on: June 25, 2006, 12:37:48 PM »

   Hondaman,

 Your idea is a good one, just made up a set of bushings for my 74, on mine one side of the pivit tube was whacked pretty badly, (strangely didn't show a lot of play in swingarm though wear may have opccured before bushing was changed originally)  turned it down to the lowest worn point  then shrunk a steel tube onto it and turned that to the original size and cut through it to form a groove that uncovered the grease hole,  then made a bushing from bearing bronze, just happened to have a chunk the right size in the junk box. the opposite side (left side) was in fine shape,
  If you go into production, maybe you can use this technique,  I turned down a taper for the headstock and left a long nose on it, then inserted it into the headstock and turned the nose down to the ID of the pivot tube, then for my tailstock I turned a taper and fit it with a bearing then made a nosecone the same as the headstock side, that way I can pull the shaft after truing it to make the bushings (and sleeves if needed) and still hold everything concentric when reinstalling the shaft for turning the sleeve to proper fit. making the sleeve may mean that the bearing needs oil grooves inside as the sleeves cover the oem oil grooves, but the sleeves mean that you can use off the shelf bearings next time.

  good thing I'm done with it as someone's on the way over to look at my lathe, I find myself needing a slightly larger one for some of the other stuff I do.

ken.
   

Offline HondaMan

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Re: Swing Arm Bushing replacement
« Reply #45 on: June 26, 2006, 09:34:52 AM »
Terry -

Are you planning on offering CB500/550 swingarm bushings too???

On the threaded rod installation tool: If you're freezing the bushings and heating the swingarm, that is going to take a long time to thread in...and the parts will no longer be cold/hot...might be better to just take it to a truck repair shop and have them press them in...

Or you could add a hydraulic press to your toolbox and offer a complete rebuild service...  :D

Funny you should bring up a rebuild service. I'm planning on offering just that, because of these other variables:

Like Terry talked about: sometimes you have to hone the installed bearings to get them to fit. BUT, this is because the swingarm's tube gets distorted over time, becoming "taller" in the vertical dimension, probably due to shock loads. For example, this weekend I worked on 2 CB750K swingarms: one has over 100,000 miles on it and one has 27,000 miles on it. The 100k one was .008" ovalled in the vertical dimension, compared to the horizontal. The 27K one was .003" ovalled, same direction. Installing perfectly-matched swingarm bushings and shaft in them resulted in the need to hone (or bore-to-fit) because the bushings also became oval.

So, after I get my new (old) lathe set up, I'll be offering a rebuild service AND custom "cleanup" service, where you can either 1.) send the whole swingarm, and we'll rebuild it or 2.) send the shaft and I'll clean it up, turn some matching bushings and then you can install and hone-to-fit yourself (a Checker Auto brake cylinder hone works fine). The problems with trying to measure the swingarm tube for its "ovallness" will cause fit problems if I were to make you a nice, .0008" clearance bushing set (Honda's minimum spec), only to have you install it into an oval hole and end up with an interference fit! The main issue here is that everyone measures differently, so it's best to have the same guy measure the ID and OD dimensions, so his errors are at least consistent.

The interesting thing about this weekend experience was the result of the honing. The hole started out .007" too small in the horizontal dimension (since I had happened to measure the hole vertically to make the bushing), and after honing with a 2-stone hone it was round within .0005". I guess the hone cuts the high spots a little more than the low ones, and it evened itself out! I thought I was going to have to make a custom reamer, but it turned out OK.
See SOHC4shop@gmail.com for info about the gadgets I make for these bikes.

The demons are repulsed when a man does good. Use that.
Blood is thicker than water, but motor oil is thicker yet...so, don't mess with my SOHC4, or I might have to hurt you.
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Link to Hondaman Ignition: http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php?topic=67543.0

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Offline puppytrax

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Re: Swing Arm Bushing replacement
« Reply #46 on: June 26, 2006, 11:44:17 AM »
Funny you should bring up a rebuild service. I'm planning on offering just that...

Not really a coincidence...I was fishing...I would be interested...   ;D

Quote
I thought I was going to have to make a custom reamer, but it turned out OK.

Might be worth buying an adjustable shell reamer anyway.

Is the tubing Honda makes the swingarm pivot out of really so thin-walled???
...stock 1972 CB500 '500 Four' undergoing re-assembly...
...Stock 1972 CL450 'Scrambler' also being re-assembled...

Offline Terry in Australia

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Re: Swing Arm Bushing replacement
« Reply #47 on: June 26, 2006, 07:07:06 PM »
Well I'm watching an Ebay Oz auction now for an AC/DC Tig welder, (no, it doesn't play "Highway to Hell", ha ha!) and if my eventual bid is successfull, I'm gonna chop up my Katana alloy swingarm which is 3 inches too long, and turn up a new swingarm tube and weld it back in, with some additional alloy bracing, then fit a CB750 pivot tube and some home made bronze bushes. I was going to fabricate a steel box section swingarm, but the Katana item weighs probably half that of a steel one and is seriously rigid, so will be great for my racer project. Cheers, Terry. ;D 
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Offline HondaMan

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Re: Swing Arm Bushing replacement
« Reply #48 on: July 01, 2006, 09:42:04 PM »
Woo Hoo! I finally got my lathe!

Thanks, merc2dogs: I'll think about that, too.

First, I'm going to figure out the least expensive ways to do all this, 'cuz none of us is rich.  :(

Then, I'll post what I figure out. Most likely, a properly-sized bushing (i.e., stock I.D./O.D.) won't solve most of our slop problems, due to the pivot shaft wear. So, I'll at least need the pivot shaft and, preferably, the whole swingarm, so the fits will be guarantee-able. I hate getting myself something that just makes something else more difficult to fix, so I'm trying to make this simpler for everyone involved. Of course, simple is sometimes tougher...

First thing, though, will be to turn some .004" undersized bushings, just for practice. In the situation I just fixed in my K2, this would have been inadequate, because the shaft was oval as well as the swingarm tube: I ended up smaller than that, then honed back out to get round.
See SOHC4shop@gmail.com for info about the gadgets I make for these bikes.

The demons are repulsed when a man does good. Use that.
Blood is thicker than water, but motor oil is thicker yet...so, don't mess with my SOHC4, or I might have to hurt you.
Hondaman's creed: "Bikers are family. Treat them accordingly."

Link to Hondaman Ignition: http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php?topic=67543.0

Link to My CB750 Book: https://www.lulu.com/search?adult_audience_rating=00&page=1&pageSize=10&q=my+cb750+book

Link to website: www.SOHC4shop.com

Offline merc2dogs

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Re: Swing Arm Bushing replacement
« Reply #49 on: July 02, 2006, 04:19:29 AM »

 congrats and what kind of lathe did you get?
 
  I had a couple big monarchs, and a 12x32 hendy toolmaker lathe, but when I moved I got rid of them, the big monarch is what I made the wheels for my triumph on, (triumph hubs, comstar rims, custom 'spokes' made of 3/8 aluminum. all I kept were a 6x18 atlas and 6x12 craftsman AA type. went with a 9x20 as it was the biggest I can set up here.

once you get everything figured out and a few jigs set up you can fly through construction.

 I'm told online metals is a good source for bearing bronze. haven't used them, have some friends who work in toolrooms at local factories, and I get most material at cost from them.
 
  the shaft on mine was hard, but realy didn't feel like it was hardened

ken.