Author Topic: Hard to start cold, maybe slightly less smooth... thoughts?  (Read 896 times)

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Offline Dunk

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Hard to start cold, maybe slightly less smooth... thoughts?
« on: August 28, 2014, 08:28:28 PM »
CB750 K1 with 400 miles on rebuilt top end. Cylinders had virtually no wear (have it written down but off the top of my head I want to say worst was shy of .0015" and the rest were significantly less) so just honed and new rings, head ported, seats cut, polish chambers, new guides, new exhaust valves, lapped, etc... Reused springs. 90% of the time 1 kick to start and I'd attribute the other 10% where it fired second kick to operator error. This morning and this afternoon it was hard to start, maybe 5-6 kicks. This morning it seemed slightly less smooth and slightly lower idle after it ran a few minutes before I headed out, I adjusted idle stop just a hair tighter and it seemed fine, and later adjusted it down just a hair once it was warmed up since it was idling higher than I had it previously. Starts fine one kick when hot, say 30 mins or less since at full temp. I want to say it took a few kicks to start yesterday when leaving work.

I thought maybe plugs were fouling or something simple. What do you guys think of these plugs? I'll withhold my thoughts for now... Those are 1-4 left to right. #3 is a little oily because the tach drive started leaking down on it this week. Ordering a DOHC seal since reports here are they seal better.





After cleaning these with brake cleaner and a soft brush it fired first kick on only 3 cylinders (forgot a wire!). Didn't seem any smoother though. I had idle mixture screws about 3/4 out with slight variances, It seems to idle a little better with them 1/2 out so that's where I put them. I understand they should be set approx 1 turn out, which this engine does not like, too lean and will increase RPM as choke is nearing closed. I'll probably repeat carb sync since I changed them.

Engine makes great power. Last night I went for a long ride and hammered on it quite a bit. I got carried away one time and very briefly hit 10 grand or just shy of, snuck up on me as the clutch is slipping if accelerating hard over 7k or so. New clutch is on the way to fix that. One other time I had it up to about 9k for a split second. I'm wondering if it's feasible I may have bent a valve and that may be causing the hard start or slightly less smooth idle. I am regretting not changing the springs for stiffer, I did not expect it to be so rev happy with a stock cam as my previous stock 750s were more or less signed off in the neighborhood of 8000-8500. After going to 10k last night I noticed no change for the next 20 mins or so home. Smooth idle and pulled hard. It still pulls hard. No backfiring intake or exhaust. What are chances I bent a valve?

I think I'm going to adjust the valves again. I adjusted them initially cold then again after 100-150 miles with the engine somewhat warm. I've since read they should be adjusted HOT. I had them set to .002" IN and .003" EX. My compression tester does not fit these threads so I'll pick up another or a fitting that does and check that as well. Timing again too and probably a carb sync, again. Also I did not rebuild the carbs after doing the engine. They were supposedly rebuilt a couple years ago. Looked clean and ran well enough prior to restoration and I was impatient so just sprayed all passages with cleaner and threw them on.

Offline Schnell

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Re: Hard to start cold, maybe slightly less smooth... thoughts?
« Reply #1 on: August 28, 2014, 08:37:33 PM »
"I've since read they should be adjusted HOT."

This is news to me, but I'm fairly new to the SOHC4 world. Can you provide links?

I just adjusted my valves cold, and now my bike is harder to start than before.

I know my BMW airheads need to be cold for valve adjustment, and I remember reading in Zen and the Art of Motorcycle Maintainance, that valves need to be adjusted cold, within a few hours of sunrise, if memory serves, and that bike was a Honda. (305?)
« Last Edit: August 28, 2014, 08:42:58 PM by Schnell »
A good traveller has no fixed plans and is not intent on arriving. --Lao Tsu

primary: 1974 Honda CB750
long term, now resting: 1981 BMW R100/7
project: 1971 Honda CL350
project: 1974 Honda CB450

previous:
1975 Honda CB750
1973 BMW R90/6
1981 Suzuki GS650
1973 Honda CD175

My little website: http://frankfoto.jimdo.com/

Offline seanbarney41

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Re: Hard to start cold, maybe slightly less smooth... thoughts?
« Reply #2 on: August 28, 2014, 08:42:20 PM »
Those are the best looking plugs I have seen, although few have reported much success using Iridiums.  I doubt you bent a valve.  5-6 kicks on a new, unfamiliar, and rapidly settling in combination doesn't seem like "hard starting" to me.  What's wrong with the starter?  And where ever you read that the valves should be adjusted hot, I would not read there again.
If it works good, it looks good...

DH

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Re: Hard to start cold, maybe slightly less smooth... thoughts?
« Reply #3 on: August 28, 2014, 08:48:31 PM »
Any chance humidity or rain/moisture in the air might be affecting it?
How are your plug caps? Get a squirt bottle of water and mist around the coils
and wires and see if it aggravates things. Measure the resistance of the plug caps
if they're old. And yeah, where did it say to adjust valves hot? Be careful with that one....

Offline Schnell

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Re: Hard to start cold, maybe slightly less smooth... thoughts?
« Reply #4 on: August 28, 2014, 08:49:33 PM »
What are the iridium equivalents to the recommended plugs for cb750k?
A good traveller has no fixed plans and is not intent on arriving. --Lao Tsu

primary: 1974 Honda CB750
long term, now resting: 1981 BMW R100/7
project: 1971 Honda CL350
project: 1974 Honda CB450

previous:
1975 Honda CB750
1973 BMW R90/6
1981 Suzuki GS650
1973 Honda CD175

My little website: http://frankfoto.jimdo.com/

Offline Dunk

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Re: Hard to start cold, maybe slightly less smooth... thoughts?
« Reply #5 on: August 28, 2014, 09:14:56 PM »
OK, so cold adjustment it is. Checked Hondaman's book and it just says set them while assembling engine and nothing about further adjustment hot or cold for maintenance. I read hot in several old threads here in a search. Are .002" and .003" my target? I went for tight side of range in attempt to keep the engine as quiet as possible. I'll adjust on a stone cold engine tomorrow, driving the cage to work I suppose.

I have had good experiences with iridium. They tend to not foul easily and I've seen easier starting and smoother idle.

Not sure about moisture or humidity. 400 miles on a restore and I've been caught in the rain already, torrential downpour last week and both me and the bike were totally soaked. Didn't notice any change then. Ignition is a Dyna S and 3 ohm Dyna coils with automotive wires and caps. I do have solid core copper wires and stock resistor caps I'm planning to install to go back to original appearance. Not particularly humid this week, finally been dry for a few days in a row. I did hold a plug to the engine and crank it over and saw a hot white/blue spark and didn't get shocked. Dyna, coils, and wires are maybe 5 yrs old.

As for the starter... I only use it for troubleshooting, especially if anyone is watching. I'm an old curmudgeon at heart, real bikes have kick starts and I rode dirt a long time before I got my first street bike (a 750 K2) so kicking is natural, pushing a button feels lazy. It's also a great way to notice any minute changes in the engine and drive me nuts over what may be nothing significant.

Offline seanbarney41

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Re: Hard to start cold, maybe slightly less smooth... thoughts?
« Reply #6 on: August 28, 2014, 09:33:21 PM »
Well, obviously, there is your problem...there is a group of young ladies watching you kickstart and everyone knows that a "one kick" bike only exists when no one is around ;D
If it works good, it looks good...

Offline evanphi

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Re: Hard to start cold, maybe slightly less smooth... thoughts?
« Reply #7 on: August 29, 2014, 05:06:02 AM »
Well, obviously, there is your problem...there is a group of young ladies watching you kickstart and everyone knows that a "one kick" bike only exists when no one is around ;D

...I hear that. First kick cold and I was the only one watching the other day. Usually takes me 3 in my cool climate.
--Evan

1975 CB750K "Rhonda"
Delkevic Stainless 4-1 Header, Cone Engineering 18" Quiet Core Reverse Cone, K&N Filter in Drilled Airbox
K5 Crankcase/Frame, K4 Head and Cylinders, K1 Carbs (42;120;1 Turn)

She's a mix-matched (former) basket case, but she's mine.

CB750 Shop Manual (all years), searchable text PDF
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Offline Dunk

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Re: Hard to start cold, maybe slightly less smooth... thoughts?
« Reply #8 on: August 30, 2014, 06:14:28 PM »
Adjusted cold yesterday and two intakes and one exhaust were a little tight. Took my time and got 'em good. Ran out of time due to other obligations yesterday and today. Hopefully finish going over everything tomorrow and get the new clutch in as well. Maybe I'm just being paranoid over nothing.

Offline trueblue

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Re: Hard to start cold, maybe slightly less smooth... thoughts?
« Reply #9 on: August 31, 2014, 03:09:30 AM »
If you got soaked a few days ago, I would pull the points cover just to check there isn't any moisture in there.  I'm not sure on the exact make up of the Dyna's, but electronics don't like moisture.  If some water got in there it could be condensing when cold and evaporating when warm.  Possibly not your problem but worth pulling the cover to check. ;D
1979 CB650Z
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