Author Topic: Patina Hyena - 550/650 674cc Hybrid Cafe Build  (Read 345097 times)

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Offline SOHC4 Cafe Racer Fan

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Re: Patina Hyena - 550/650 674cc Hybrid Cafe Build
« Reply #2275 on: May 28, 2019, 02:28:41 PM »
My understanding is that they are sealed air-tight in argon or a similar inert gas.  When they are customized (like at Seattle Speedometer) they are re-sealed in an argon chamber. 

Glad Motogadget will pick up the costs -- other than time.  With a second "problem,"  I still think they should swap it.
1975 CB550K1 "Blue" Stockish Restomod (http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php?topic=135005.0)
1975 CB550F1 frame/CB650 engine hybrid "The Hot Mess" (http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php/topic,150220.0.html)
2008 Triumph Thruxton (http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php/topic,190956.0.html)
2014 MV Agusta Brutale Dragster 800
2015 Yamaha FZ-09 (http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php/topic,186861.0.html)

"There are some things nobody needs in this world, and a bright-red, hunch-back, warp-speed 900cc cafe racer is one of them — but I want one anyway, and on some days I actually believe I need one.... Being shot out of a cannon will always be better than being squeezed out of a tube. That is why God made fast motorcycles, Bubba." Hunter S. Thompson, Song of the Sausage Creature, Cycle World, March 1995.  (http://www.latexnet.org/~csmith/sausage.html and https://magazine.cycleworld.com/article/1995/3/1/song-of-the-sausage-creature)

Sold/Emeritus
1973 CB750K2 "Bionic Mongrel" (http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php?topic=132734.0) - Sold
1977 CB750K7 "Nine Lives" Restomod (http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php?topic=50490.0) - Sold
2005 RVT1000RR RC51-SP2 "El Diablo" - Sold
2016+ Triumph Thruxton 1200 R (http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php/topic,170198.0.html) - Sold

Offline DaveBarbier

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Re: Patina Hyena - 550/650 674cc Hybrid Cafe Build
« Reply #2276 on: June 01, 2019, 09:17:16 AM »
Ohh man, ok went to Rick Stetson the dyno master yesterday. Fun day, a little long with some weird issues, but still fun.

As I expected my jetting was close. We only went down on the mains from 105 to 100. Also tried some main air jet stuff but ended up going back to the existing 220’s. He adjusted the mixture screws and it idles much better than before. I had it all too rich, and I knew it. I just wanted to be sure I was safe until we put it on the dyno.

So first thing was the clutch was slipping, AGAIN. Last time I was there we had to remove the clutch, mill the basket to accept larger heavier springs he had in stock and that helped. This time it was slipping again from 9,000 rpm and it was still trying to make power. We removed the clutch cover and put in even heavier springs than before. Put it all together and it was slipping less but still slipping. So we took it off again, broke for lunch (Harry’s Diner, really nice place with even nicer people) and then put in even HEAVIER springs and also glass bead blasted the plates. Clutch lever is a little heavier but I don’t think it’ll be a problem. Worst case I still have the other springs I can put in...or think about a hydraulic conversion...hopefully not. Back on the dyno and it pulled almost to 10,000 rpm with good power. Rick chalked the slipping up to design rather than oil (conventional) or clutch being worn out. So Don, you might want to be aware of this.



Next thing was IGNITION. The clutch wasn’t slipping anymore. But almost always we’d get a weird blip at the high end rpm. Rick almost thought the C5 had a rev limiter, that’s how it was acting. I told him about the reduced voltage deal that Paul at C5 recommended. Showed him my dc converter and he was dubious. We ended up bypassing the converter for the coils only, not the plate, and the weird blip disappeared. Next was the ignition timing. We tried 2° advanced and power dropped off. Tried 2° retarded and power increased. Then 4°, more power. 5.5°, little more power then we ran out of adjustment room. Not sure how much it would have gone but that’s how the cookie crumbles. I’m not comfortable enough to do more tests without the dyno so I’m leaving it. The C5 isn’t very precise when setting timing anyway. You put the engine to #1 TDC and then rotate the plate until the red LED comes on. But the thing is is that the red LED can stay on for like 6° of rotation. And there aren’t any marks to use a strobe. I’ll have to use my degree wheel to see where it is exactly. We also tried the different ignition curves that the C5 is programmed for. Nothing made an improvement so we kept with the #1 map where both wires are grounded (if you have a C5 you’ll understand this).

Lastly was the air/fuel map. Forever I was getting this weird spike and then dip before leveling out to a perfect ratio. We looked at other guys who had the same Megacycle 126-20 and they all had the same spike and dip. Some more pronounced than others. Mine was one of the extreme ones. Rick felt this was going to be almost impossible to tune out. He mentioned the words “fuel injection” and I put my fingers in my ears. Now, the bike feels great, my butt says the a/f ratio is a flat curve but the machines say otherwise. So it’s not noticeable from me but it’s there. I’m not worried about it.



I’m undecided if I’ll keep with the converter or remove it. I don’t see myself really utilizing 9,500 rpm that much so for now I’m going to keep it hooked up. If it starts to bug me I’ll take it off. The new Rick’s reg/rec I got which is designed for LiFe PO batteries does keep the voltage at a stable 13.8 volts. So still under what Paul wants us about. So if I remove it I’d be surprised if the coils give problems again.

All in all I love going up there. Rick is a legend with an awesome shop and Skippy the dog is the best.

Long post. Time to ride.

Offline DaveBarbier

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Re: Patina Hyena - 550/650 674cc Hybrid Cafe Build
« Reply #2277 on: June 01, 2019, 01:13:48 PM »
Big update: Bike still sputters to a stop. Currently on the side of a road. Don’t have any spark plugs to test with. I’m thinking of throwing the C5 in the bin.

Offline h.lanooy

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Re: Patina Hyena - 550/650 674cc Hybrid Cafe Build
« Reply #2278 on: June 01, 2019, 01:22:16 PM »
Same issues as before, no spark? That's a shame. I do understand the feeling, when some high tech stuff ain't working out.
If your getting rid of the C5 maybe the Dyna 2000 is a good option. It doesn't come ready for the CB650, but I read somewhere that it's easy to fit to a CB650 (you use CB750 model) with minor adjustments.

Check this post: http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php/topic,17895.0.html
« Last Edit: June 01, 2019, 01:25:55 PM by h.lanooy »

Offline DaveBarbier

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Re: Patina Hyena - 550/650 674cc Hybrid Cafe Build
« Reply #2279 on: June 01, 2019, 01:34:29 PM »
I wish I brought spark plugs and tools to test with. I just assumed it was fixed, rookie mistake. It really sounds and feels like ignition. Thanks for the link. I’m going to do a lot of research tonight, haha.

Thanks brother!


Offline DaveBarbier

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Re: Patina Hyena - 550/650 674cc Hybrid Cafe Build
« Reply #2281 on: June 01, 2019, 02:31:03 PM »
Got a good picture this afternoon before the ride though. My friend’s Harley something or other.


Offline SOHC4 Cafe Racer Fan

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Re: Patina Hyena - 550/650 674cc Hybrid Cafe Build
« Reply #2282 on: June 01, 2019, 11:02:20 PM »
Ughhhhh. That SUCKS!!
1975 CB550K1 "Blue" Stockish Restomod (http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php?topic=135005.0)
1975 CB550F1 frame/CB650 engine hybrid "The Hot Mess" (http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php/topic,150220.0.html)
2008 Triumph Thruxton (http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php/topic,190956.0.html)
2014 MV Agusta Brutale Dragster 800
2015 Yamaha FZ-09 (http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php/topic,186861.0.html)

"There are some things nobody needs in this world, and a bright-red, hunch-back, warp-speed 900cc cafe racer is one of them — but I want one anyway, and on some days I actually believe I need one.... Being shot out of a cannon will always be better than being squeezed out of a tube. That is why God made fast motorcycles, Bubba." Hunter S. Thompson, Song of the Sausage Creature, Cycle World, March 1995.  (http://www.latexnet.org/~csmith/sausage.html and https://magazine.cycleworld.com/article/1995/3/1/song-of-the-sausage-creature)

Sold/Emeritus
1973 CB750K2 "Bionic Mongrel" (http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php?topic=132734.0) - Sold
1977 CB750K7 "Nine Lives" Restomod (http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php?topic=50490.0) - Sold
2005 RVT1000RR RC51-SP2 "El Diablo" - Sold
2016+ Triumph Thruxton 1200 R (http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php/topic,170198.0.html) - Sold

Offline RAFster122s

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Re: Patina Hyena - 550/650 674cc Hybrid Cafe Build
« Reply #2283 on: June 01, 2019, 11:56:48 PM »
Still won’t start. This feels permanent, haha.
Intermittent problems are the worst!  Whatever has been causing the shutdowns has failed completely now. That should make getting to the bottom of this easier for C5 to diagnose/trace to the faulty component or portion of the circuit so he can engineer a fix. At least that is how it is suppose to work when troubleshooting an electrical component failure...
David
David- back in the desert SW!

Offline flatlander

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Re: Patina Hyena - 550/650 674cc Hybrid Cafe Build
« Reply #2284 on: June 02, 2019, 12:16:11 AM »
dave, regarding your clutch problem: maybe try adding another pair of plates?
i did this after some advice who uses it on his 550 racer which i think  makes about 70hp, so it should work for you as well: http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php/topic,145565.25.html

Offline DaveBarbier

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Patina Hyena - 550/650 674cc Hybrid Cafe Build
« Reply #2285 on: June 02, 2019, 04:53:24 AM »
Yes, David, that‘s my plan for today. See if it’s the coils or see if it’s the plate.

I DID confirm with a spare plug that there’s no spark.

Is there a way to test the trigger wire’s voltage? Maybe best to ask Paul at C5 but hypothetically, if the coils are getting 12v and have a good ground is there a way to test the trigger wire voltage? I don’t know what it outputs and it being pulses not sure what I’d be looking for.

Edit: C5 has a good troubleshooting page. I’ll do this and report back. http://www.c5ignitions.com/troubleshooting.html

And also, if I can confirm the plate is good and just the coils are bad, Paul offers a one time purchase of additional coils at a reduced price (maybe that sheds some light to how sensitive these coils are). I could get those and then sell the unit to someone with something other than a 650. Or, I just tell Paul what’s going on and maybe send him the unit to test and eat all the cost of the converter he just sold me and the entire C5 system and just move on to a Dyna or something.

Are there other ignitions that are out there that could be made to work on the 650?

I just know about these:
Dynatek
C5
PAMCO
The one that Dave500 was talking about, I can’t find the name...

Offline DaveBarbier

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Re: Patina Hyena - 550/650 674cc Hybrid Cafe Build
« Reply #2286 on: June 02, 2019, 04:59:07 AM »
dave, regarding your clutch problem: maybe try adding another pair of plates?
i did this after some advice who uses it on his 550 racer which i think  makes about 70hp, so it should work for you as well: http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php/topic,145565.25.html

The clutch hasn’t ever slipped on the street. Just the dyno. But even with the heavy springs that are currently in there the clutch lever feels totally fine. I’m going to leave it as is. Thanks for the link though, more stuff to read while I’m not riding, haha.

Offline DaveBarbier

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Re: Patina Hyena - 550/650 674cc Hybrid Cafe Build
« Reply #2287 on: June 02, 2019, 05:01:39 AM »
Ughhhhh. That SUCKS!!

I know, but now I feel bad for you having the C5. Is it still in the box or is it installed? If I get the Dyna or something and that ends up eliminating my problems will you still try the C5 or return it and mirror what I end up doing?

Offline DaveBarbier

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Patina Hyena - 550/650 674cc Hybrid Cafe Build
« Reply #2288 on: June 02, 2019, 11:02:40 AM »
Think I found the issue. I believe the ignition plate is the problem.

Coils are getting power and have a good ground. Ignition plate is also getting power because the red LED flashes when the engine is cranking over. The trigger wires just aren’t supplying the coils. No breaks in the trigger wires either.

I tested the coils as C5 explained:
Testing coils is easy. Disconnect the trigger lead from the module. Now QUICKLY drag the coil trigger wire across a good ground(the battery is best) and see if it produces spark. Of course, the spark plug must be firmly grounded to the engine to perform this test. If you get spark.. the coil is working as it should.
I get spark on both coils.

Testing the ignition plate (module):
Test the module by disconnecting from the coil and install a small test light (LED works best). Crank the engine quickly and see if the light flickers. If it does, the module is working as it should.
No LED flickering.

Well, that does it for me.

I’ll probably do the Dyna conversion that Herbert posted above. I put an email into Dynatek so we’ll see if they have any other info.

Thanks for the help guys.

Offline h.lanooy

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Re: Patina Hyena - 550/650 674cc Hybrid Cafe Build
« Reply #2289 on: June 02, 2019, 11:33:02 AM »
I wonder what the cause is for the ignition plate  just dying on you. Doesn’t seem right.
At least you ruled out coil failure.
The problem I had was coil related.

Offline DaveBarbier

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Re: Patina Hyena - 550/650 674cc Hybrid Cafe Build
« Reply #2290 on: June 02, 2019, 12:10:01 PM »
I wonder what the cause is for the ignition plate  just dying on you. Doesn’t seem right.
At least you ruled out coil failure.
The problem I had was coil related.

No idea, I’m going to remove the coils and plate after lunch. I’ll look for burned components on the back of the plate. Other than an obvious visual problem I’m not going to dive deep. I offered to send Paul back the whole thing in case he wants to test it.

Offline SOHC4 Cafe Racer Fan

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Re: Patina Hyena - 550/650 674cc Hybrid Cafe Build
« Reply #2291 on: June 02, 2019, 06:46:24 PM »
Ughhhhh. That SUCKS!!

I know, but now I feel bad for you having the C5. Is it still in the box or is it installed? If I get the Dyna or something and that ends up eliminating my problems will you still try the C5 or return it and mirror what I end up doing?

I haven't installed it but I bought it too long ago to return.  If the C5 is the issue, I'd seriously consider selling it to someone with a 550 (or saving it for a later 550 project) and mirroring your solution.  I don't need or want to reinvent the wheel.
1975 CB550K1 "Blue" Stockish Restomod (http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php?topic=135005.0)
1975 CB550F1 frame/CB650 engine hybrid "The Hot Mess" (http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php/topic,150220.0.html)
2008 Triumph Thruxton (http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php/topic,190956.0.html)
2014 MV Agusta Brutale Dragster 800
2015 Yamaha FZ-09 (http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php/topic,186861.0.html)

"There are some things nobody needs in this world, and a bright-red, hunch-back, warp-speed 900cc cafe racer is one of them — but I want one anyway, and on some days I actually believe I need one.... Being shot out of a cannon will always be better than being squeezed out of a tube. That is why God made fast motorcycles, Bubba." Hunter S. Thompson, Song of the Sausage Creature, Cycle World, March 1995.  (http://www.latexnet.org/~csmith/sausage.html and https://magazine.cycleworld.com/article/1995/3/1/song-of-the-sausage-creature)

Sold/Emeritus
1973 CB750K2 "Bionic Mongrel" (http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php?topic=132734.0) - Sold
1977 CB750K7 "Nine Lives" Restomod (http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php?topic=50490.0) - Sold
2005 RVT1000RR RC51-SP2 "El Diablo" - Sold
2016+ Triumph Thruxton 1200 R (http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php/topic,170198.0.html) - Sold

Offline DaveBarbier

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Re: Patina Hyena - 550/650 674cc Hybrid Cafe Build
« Reply #2292 on: June 04, 2019, 05:20:37 AM »
I contacted Paul at C5 and I’m shipping the module and coils to him for testing. If it can be repaired they’re going to fix it and send it back. I’ll either keep it as a spare or sell it at a reduced price with a proper disclaimer. Again, coils worked fine but the plate wasn’t outputting the trigger signals even though it was getting power. If it can’t be fixed, well then I’m out $500. Not the first time this kind of thing happened nor will be the last, haha.

Going to be ordering a CB750 Dyna S system.
DS1-2 (trigger unit)
DC1-1 (3.0 ohm coils)
DW200 (plug wire kit)

Could have gone with the Dyna from the beginning and gotten the 2000 for the price of the C5 :)) Dyna will require some modification though. The rotor will have to be turned down to fit the slightly larger advance shaft of the 650 and the plate will have to be reduced in diameter to fit in the 650 bosses. Or I could make my own plate or use my existing 650 plate and instead of turning down the Dyna rotor I could turn down the advance shaft. That way I can still return the Dyna if problems occur...maybe even make a few kits for anyone who wants to adapt the Dyna S to their 650...interesting.

I was also looking at the Boyer Bransden ignition and it looks great and is cheaper but it will have to be modified to fit the 650 also. And the plate is actually a plastic circuit board with the pickups molded into it. Would be more of a pain to make work.

Question! Can the Dyna be used with an electronic tach such as my Motogadget Chronoclassic? I see the Dyna 2000 specifically mentions being able to be used with an electronic tach. I’m going to ask the Dyna rep when I order it but I thought I’d also ask you guys in case the rep does the old “we can’t speak to the functionality of other manufacturer’s parts in conjunction with the Dyna”.

Offline h.lanooy

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Re: Patina Hyena - 550/650 674cc Hybrid Cafe Build
« Reply #2293 on: June 04, 2019, 06:06:41 AM »
As far as I know, with the Dyna S you can get a trigger from one of the coils to the tach.
With the Dyna 2000 there is a dedicated wire.

Offline DaveBarbier

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Re: Patina Hyena - 550/650 674cc Hybrid Cafe Build
« Reply #2294 on: June 04, 2019, 06:34:38 AM »
As far as I know, with the Dyna S you can get a trigger from one of the coils to the tach.
With the Dyna 2000 there is a dedicated wire.

That’s what I’m thinking. The C5 has a dedicated wire too, I just wanted to be sure. Some threads I found on the topic didn’t have a definitive answer. One guy said it worked but showed his RPM as half of what it should be. The Chronoclassic has settings for that though.

Offline h.lanooy

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Re: Patina Hyena - 550/650 674cc Hybrid Cafe Build
« Reply #2295 on: June 04, 2019, 07:36:54 AM »
I’m actually also considering the Dyna 2000. I have not have recent problems with my C5 setup yet, but I also didn’t put enough mileage in. Just a couple of short trips.
I discovered I’m not getting beyond 6k rpm. That could be fuel related, the carbs still need proper adjustment.
With the knowledge I have now I would have chosen a Dyna 2000 setup. Less prone to failure as far as I know because of voltage spike and likes.
If I end up replacing the ignition it will be a Dyna 2000, probably with the miniature series coils. The set for the CB550 and CB750 seems to fit with minor adjustments.

Offline DaveBarbier

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Re: Patina Hyena - 550/650 674cc Hybrid Cafe Build
« Reply #2296 on: June 04, 2019, 08:13:10 AM »
One thing I like right away from looking at the Dyna is the install directions. They just say connect to switched 12 volts and hook up to coils and that’s it. The C5 has all these warnings and requirements like hooking up directly to battery and wire routing stipulations and voltage requirements and spark plug gap requirements. Many things you can do like accidentally run the bike with out a spark plug grounded that will damage the coils. Too finicky for me.

Offline h.lanooy

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Re: Patina Hyena - 550/650 674cc Hybrid Cafe Build
« Reply #2297 on: June 04, 2019, 09:15:05 AM »
One thing I like right away from looking at the Dyna is the install directions. They just say connect to switched 12 volts and hook up to coils and that’s it. The C5 has all these warnings and requirements like hooking up directly to battery and wire routing stipulations and voltage requirements and spark plug gap requirements. Many things you can do like accidentally run the bike with out a spark plug grounded that will damage the coils. Too finicky for me.

Exactly!

Offline SOHC4 Cafe Racer Fan

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Re: Patina Hyena - 550/650 674cc Hybrid Cafe Build
« Reply #2298 on: June 04, 2019, 09:17:58 AM »
Dave,

Are you integrating in the voltage regulator and newer reg/rec with the Dyna S? 

Don
1975 CB550K1 "Blue" Stockish Restomod (http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php?topic=135005.0)
1975 CB550F1 frame/CB650 engine hybrid "The Hot Mess" (http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php/topic,150220.0.html)
2008 Triumph Thruxton (http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php/topic,190956.0.html)
2014 MV Agusta Brutale Dragster 800
2015 Yamaha FZ-09 (http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php/topic,186861.0.html)

"There are some things nobody needs in this world, and a bright-red, hunch-back, warp-speed 900cc cafe racer is one of them — but I want one anyway, and on some days I actually believe I need one.... Being shot out of a cannon will always be better than being squeezed out of a tube. That is why God made fast motorcycles, Bubba." Hunter S. Thompson, Song of the Sausage Creature, Cycle World, March 1995.  (http://www.latexnet.org/~csmith/sausage.html and https://magazine.cycleworld.com/article/1995/3/1/song-of-the-sausage-creature)

Sold/Emeritus
1973 CB750K2 "Bionic Mongrel" (http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php?topic=132734.0) - Sold
1977 CB750K7 "Nine Lives" Restomod (http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php?topic=50490.0) - Sold
2005 RVT1000RR RC51-SP2 "El Diablo" - Sold
2016+ Triumph Thruxton 1200 R (http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php/topic,170198.0.html) - Sold

Offline SOHC4 Cafe Racer Fan

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Re: Patina Hyena - 550/650 674cc Hybrid Cafe Build
« Reply #2299 on: June 04, 2019, 09:32:16 AM »


That torque curve/line is almost as flat as an e-bike! 
1975 CB550K1 "Blue" Stockish Restomod (http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php?topic=135005.0)
1975 CB550F1 frame/CB650 engine hybrid "The Hot Mess" (http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php/topic,150220.0.html)
2008 Triumph Thruxton (http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php/topic,190956.0.html)
2014 MV Agusta Brutale Dragster 800
2015 Yamaha FZ-09 (http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php/topic,186861.0.html)

"There are some things nobody needs in this world, and a bright-red, hunch-back, warp-speed 900cc cafe racer is one of them — but I want one anyway, and on some days I actually believe I need one.... Being shot out of a cannon will always be better than being squeezed out of a tube. That is why God made fast motorcycles, Bubba." Hunter S. Thompson, Song of the Sausage Creature, Cycle World, March 1995.  (http://www.latexnet.org/~csmith/sausage.html and https://magazine.cycleworld.com/article/1995/3/1/song-of-the-sausage-creature)

Sold/Emeritus
1973 CB750K2 "Bionic Mongrel" (http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php?topic=132734.0) - Sold
1977 CB750K7 "Nine Lives" Restomod (http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php?topic=50490.0) - Sold
2005 RVT1000RR RC51-SP2 "El Diablo" - Sold
2016+ Triumph Thruxton 1200 R (http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php/topic,170198.0.html) - Sold