Topic: Patina Hyena - 550/650 674cc Hybrid Cafe Build

[DaveBarbier]

To anyone having trouble with really stuck head washers. I had 5 that just wouldn't come out after the bolts were removed. I tried picks and screw drivers trying to pry them out. Tried using a drift and hammer to shock them loose with no luck. I got my drill out and a 1/2" bit. On a high torque setting and with a lot of pressure SLOWLY drill into them from the top. The drill will bite into the steel washer. After you feel you have a good bite, give it a few quick drills. They should break free or come out completely on the end of the bit.





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1978 Honda CB550K

[SOHC4 Cafe Racer Fan]

That was some finesse drilling.

[DaveBarbier]

That was some finesse drilling.

Ha, thanks. More of a testament to my Makita and Bosch bits. I had my entire weight on the drill, which for a normal sized adult male would probably just be a firm press.


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1978 Honda CB550K

[SOHC4 Cafe Racer Fan]

That was some finesse drilling.

Ha, thanks. More of a testament to my Makita and Bosch bits. I had my entire weight on the drill, which for a normal sized adult male would probably just be a firm press.


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1978 Honda CB550K

I am hoping my CB650 engine comes apart easier.  Fortunately, I do have a spare head, jugs and cases, IF it wants to be extra difficult.

[DaveBarbier]

That was some finesse drilling.

Ha, thanks. More of a testament to my Makita and Bosch bits. I had my entire weight on the drill, which for a normal sized adult male would probably just be a firm press.


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1978 Honda CB550K

I am hoping my CB650 engine comes apart easier.  Fortunately, I do have a spare head, jugs and cases, IF it wants to be extra difficult.

Mine sat outside for 5 years. All bolts have come out pretty easily except for some of the bolts on the front of the motor. The two head bolts that snapped, the oil pan bolt, the oil filter bolt and I'm looking at the 4 case bolts in the front of the motor straddling the oil filter cover are rusted pretty bad while the others aren't. Those will probably give me problems too, haha. There was also no front fender on the bike, may be the cause.


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1978 Honda CB550K

[DaveBarbier]

The cylinders are still giving me problems. The snapped off head bolt, I don't think it's the cause now. I can wiggle it with a screw driver and it moves pretty easily. I think it's seized only in the case by its threads. Tried more heat, wood/hammer combo, PB Blaster, rags in 1/4 cylinders and putting the head on and cranking the motor to pop the cylinders off...nothing. Not even wiggling a little. I might go ahead and tap it and thread some bolts down to try and press it off. I'll eat lunch first.


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1978 Honda CB550K

[RAFster122s]

If your piston is still in and moving freely then I have seen cotton rope used to fill a cylinder that is coming up on compression to provide a press on the head. It usually pops the head off or lifts the clinders and head from your case.
problem is when head is off you can bolt a block of wood across the cylinders and then your cotton cord below the block that is sized to center in the bore and be square to board. You can break things if not careful,  the bolt has to be the heavier one for the crank, not a points bolt that is small...

David

[DaveBarbier]

If your piston is still in and moving freely then I have seen cotton rope used to fill a cylinder that is coming up on compression to provide a press on the head. It usually pops the head off or lifts the clinders and head from your case.
problem is when head is off you can bolt a block of wood across the cylinders and then your cotton cord below the block that is sized to center in the bore and be square to board. You can break things if not careful,  the bolt has to be the heavier one for the crank, not a points bolt that is small...

David

Thanks, I did try that a few times but I used rags. I put the 1-4 pistons at BDC and put rags in the bore. Bolted the head on the cylinders with the two smaller 6mm bolts. Then cranked the motor with the big bolt under the rotor cover. I used as much force as I felt comfortable (which after frustration set in was kind of a lot) and not even a budge. Even after heating the seam with propane for 10 minutes straight...evenly going around the seam back and forth. One problem is that the motor is ENGINEERED to cool down efficiently. So the heat only lasts a few minutes. You have to act quick. I know there are no bolts holding it on but I've still checked and double checked. My 550 motor was far easier to deal with.


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1978 Honda CB550K

[DaveBarbier]

Got the cylinders off the case of this '82 650. Man, what a pain. Here's what I did.

First, I went to my tap set and took out the M12x1.75. That's the size I'd need to tap the head bolt holes. The holes are .405" in diameter (10.29mm) and that's almost a perfect size for the M12x1.75.

Then I tapped a couple holes:




Then I cut a length of 1/4" steel rod to about 92mm (sorry for the mix of metric and imperial, I'm weird) and dropped it down the hole making sure it hit the bottom of the bolt hole. Thread an M12x1.75 bolt into each tapped hole and tighten them down. I only needed two holes tapped.





Success! In this picture you can see the snapped off bolts that will have to come out. Not sure if I want to try and tackle it or have a machine shop do it.


Next, the case halves. I fear they will be just as hard to separate.


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1978 Honda CB550K

[MickB]

Great tip Dave.

[calj737]

With your cases split, use aircraft stripper to remove the paint. Then, when your hugs are ready for boring, take the cases and have them washed at the machine shop, have them remove the bolts, install new studs, and bore your cylinders. Probably won't charge you anything appreciable to do the cases and studs as a result. Also, have them remove and replace intake and exhaust studs at the same time.

Having them wash the cases in their pressure tank will remove all the sludge and residue and get the insides and exterior super clean. You can then decide how you want to proceed with finishing the exteriors.

I used ARP studs for my heads, and APE HD studs for the cases with ARP nuts. Highly recommend them.

[streak09]

Good ingenuity!

[DaveBarbier]

With your cases split, use aircraft stripper to remove the paint. Then, when your hugs are ready for boring, take the cases and have them washed at the machine shop, have them remove the bolts, install new studs, and bore your cylinders. Probably won't charge you anything appreciable to do the cases and studs as a result. Also, have them remove and replace intake and exhaust studs at the same time.

Having them wash the cases in their pressure tank will remove all the sludge and residue and get the insides and exterior super clean. You can then decide how you want to proceed with finishing the exteriors.

I used ARP studs for my heads, and APE HD studs for the cases with ARP nuts. Highly recommend them.

I was planning on soda blasting the exterior like I did with my 550. Gives a nice tooth for paint. I'll probably do that last after what you recommended. Or maybe blast it first before the machine shop to not deal with aircraft stripper. For $40 I can get it blasted and will be done in 15 minutes.

I'll definitely look into the in/ex studs and case studs. Those look really nice.

Thanks Cal, this should be a fun build.


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1978 Honda CB550K

[calj737]

Soda blast then machine shop. Their washer will rinse and clean the soda media from all the nooks and crannies.

[DaveBarbier]

"Attach the locknut wrench."


Uhh, ok.



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1978 Honda CB550K

[RAFster122s]

Recommend you start hitting those rusty bolts with PB Blaster and let them soak. Apply heat and cook them off, baking off the PB and then while they are good and hot a couple good hits with squarely with a good 2-3 pound hammer (dead blow works with a piece of steel plate between the face and the head so you don't muck up your hammer)  Give them good hard hits. Soak them down with PB blaster again and let them soak again.
They should yield if you clamp a pair of vice grips to the shafts, Not too close as you want to not chew up the bolt if you can help it, you have other attempts possible if it doesn't work...
Tighten and untighten to get them to start moving. Either way is a success, just don't force it too much. Let the penetrant do its work.
Kroil I'm told is good, but I like PB Blaster as it works well for me. Just don't apply too much heat with an oxy tank and melt the aluminum, know a Firestone shop destroyed a Volvo PRV aluminum block at the waterpump face when they snapped a water pump stud/bolt off in the block and used excessive heat trying to get it out and melted and deformed the mating surface. Charged the customer a fortune and turned it into a parts car.
The shop that bought it did repair and salvage of Volvos. The son  of the owner ended up grinding the face flat and repairing it with JB Weld. Had to pull the cam covers in order to time the camshafts correctly after it was screwed up by the idiots at Firestone. He ran into broken bolts there too and either did it himself or found them. He had to drill them out and retap them. It was a lot of work, but he ended up getting the car back on the road for his wife and kid that winter as they had a wreck in one of their cars and needed another car...
I was there working on my '66 Volvo 122S and assisting the mechanic with some work on it, or one of my 240s with something major I couldn't do on my own.  Same situation for the 122S, major things went to Carl's place. He and his family became good friends.

David

[DaveBarbier]

Can't believe I read the whole thing, haha. I'll definitely not be using too much heat. I don't want to do what those idiot Firestone guys did with my little 650. I'm going to let the machine shop take care of the broken bolts but I have been hitting the rest of the case bolts with PB Blaster for a couple days. Undoing the case bolts now. So far so good.

Thanks for the insights David


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1978 Honda CB550K

[DaveBarbier]

Case halves came apart surprisingly easy! Almost completely disassembled. I love how Honda painted the inside black too. Wonder if it's supposed to create a slick surface for oil movement. Kind of like Glyptal. Also, I like the added features like a primary chain tensioner and primary chain oiler compared to my 550.








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1978 Honda CB550K

[RAFster122s]

Sorry Dave, I was mistaken on the sizes as I thought we were talking about a 550 instead of the 650.
The motorera site has some model info on Hondas but, I think the forum's 650 owners like Motobunny? has info you seek on size. It is larger in the rear than the 550,  but I am not sure on the front...might be the same.

I think that the cases were coated for sealing any porosity in the casting and for easier movement of oil as you supposed.  But, I have been wrong more than a few times. Glyptal is cool stuff and what I have read is essy to work with as long as your cases are clean.  The machine shop will get them clean.  Doesn't hurt to chase holes that aee possible to ensure that it is clean. The glyptal does NOT go in those passages.

The POR engine paint I feel is too thick for an air cooled motor so, don't consider it for painting the motor.  I used it for a motor in a car and it was great stuff.

[SOHC4 Cafe Racer Fan]

"Attach the locknut wrench."


Uhh, ok.



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1978 Honda CB550K

Toolmaker, as well.  Saved yourself $20!

The inside looks pretty good.  I didn't know they used a black glyptal in the cases.  I haven't broken down my '82 to see if it has the same interior finish.

[DaveBarbier]

"Attach the locknut wrench."


Uhh, ok.



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1978 Honda CB550K

Toolmaker, as well.  Saved yourself $20!

The inside looks pretty good.  I didn't know they used a black glyptal in the cases.  I haven't broken down my '82 to see if it has the same interior finish.

Ha, I wish it was more than $20. I'll look at it like I saved a couple days instead of buying one and waiting for it to be shipped.


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1978 Honda CB550K

[SOHC4 Cafe Racer Fan]

Yeah.  I think the tool is actually around $30-40. 

I had not seen one with the prongs welded on the lock nut wrench attachment, but ones where the attachment was cut away to create prongs - similar to the one Dino made in his video.

[goldarrow]

That tool, motion pro is $7 on Amazon.

[DaveBarbier]

That tool, motion pro is $7 on Amazon.

Mine was free and at my house.


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1978 Honda CB550K

[DaveBarbier]

So yeah, the dual trailing calipers are racking my brain. I saw that Tintop had a method that he leaned from bwaller or something. I read through that and thought I had it when I came up with the same measurements as he did. I shaved the fork mount but something doesn't feel right when I pull the brake lever...and I can see the tire get cocked. Maybe I just didn't understand what he wrote.

Tintop: "Don't have any pictures, but a quick explanation of how I aligned the 2nd caliper.  My calipers are reversed, but this should work either way.

Install just the caliper arm on the 'out of alignment' side.  Lightly tightened the pivot bolt, and only finger tightened the 2 upper mounting bolts.  At this point there is a gap beween the upper fork bosses and the upper mount.  Alternately tighten / loosen these bolts until the gap is equal at both ends of the top mount.  Now take a straight edge and place it against the disk; move the arm against the straight edge.  Adjust using the upper bolts until the caliper mounting face is true to the straight egde.  Double check that gap is still equal at both ends of the mount.  Measure gap / record.  Now measure the space between the arm at the pivot & the fork.  If the gap at the top is smaller than the space at the bottom, machine the top amount off one side of the pivot pin.  If it is greater (shouldn't be) you can only remove the smaller bottom amount less some for 'swing clearence'.  In my case the top amount was 2.4mm, and the bottom was 2.6mm+.  Removed the 2.4 and fitted everything back together.  Got perfect pad alignment, and the adjuster lock nut is on the outside.

Again, many thanks to bwaller for this method."

I might have another method though, I just need someone to let me know if this is a viable one please!

Edit: This method seemed to work really well for me.

First off, I'm just doing the left side (from rider's perspective) first. Then going to do the right side after. I have the caliper assembled on the pivot arm but it's not attached to the fork. It's just clamping on the disc with the help of some twine keeping the lever pulled.



Then, I looked down the edge of the disc. In the below picture you can see the caliper, disc, pivot pin and then the fork mount in the foreground. You see the amount that the fork mount is covering the lower part of the pivot pin? That's how much I plan on remove from the fork mount (it's like 2.5mm or something. I forget exactly, I measured it with my depth gauge). In my mind this will work because when the caliper is clamped it aligns itself with the disc, then I'll just have to shave the fork mounts down to line up with the pivot pin.



PLEASE HELP, if you can give me your thoughts I'd really appreciate it!


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1978 Honda CB550K