Topic: Patina Hyena - 550/650 674cc Hybrid Cafe Build

[RAFster122s]

Wait a sec, you're planning on using loctite on your cases? What's wrong with Hondabond?  It is going to be a real PITA to separate the cases if you want to ever go back in there using any Loctite sealer I have ever seen. Is it a non-hardening sealer?

[DaveBarbier]

Wait a sec, you're planning on using loctite on your cases? What's wrong with Hondabond?  It is going to be a real PITA to separate the cases if you want to ever go back in there using any Loctite sealer I have ever seen. Is it a non-hardening sealer?

When I was researching case sealers for my 550 I was looking into Hondabond, gasgacinch, Yamabond, Loctite 518 and others. I ended up going with Loctite 518 (ONLY 518, not any other Loctite product) because of it's anaerobic properties. I could leave it on the case halves indefinitely and it won't cure. That lets me take my time and get the halves together making sure everything is mating perfectly without feeling rushed. Since it was my first time I felt I needed that security.




It's designed to work with aluminum zero tolerance mating surfaces. If any squeezes out inside the case it just gets washed off by the oil and never cures.

"Top Pick Loctite 518 Gasket Eliminator Flange Sealant forms a flexible, solvent-resistant seal that will not tear or decay. Seals to 300°F and fills gaps to 0.05" with primer. Recommended for use on rigid iron, steel and aluminum flanges. Easy disassembly and cleaning. Applications include gearbox, engine casings."
http://www.henkelna.com/about-henkel/product-search-1554.htm?nodeid=8797927604225

It mentions a primer but I read that it's not needed if the surfaces are impeccably clean using denatured alcohol and coffee filters. I LOVED working with it. Went on super smoothly and as you can read it doesn't harden but remains flexible and apparently that makes removal and cleaning super easy. And weirdly...it also smells like candy. It's the only thing I'll use on case halves. I can't find any reason not to use it.

So yeah, I was thinking of using that on the bearing but I don't think so now. The Loctite 518 doesn't seem to be engineered to withstand rotating forces. Might use a hardening sealer or nothing at all.


---
1978 Honda CB550K

[Godffery]

That sounds very promising!
I'll stay posted to see how it works out.

[DaveBarbier]

Leaks. I hate leaks. Ok, so got the calipers machined by Cal, (thanks!) and had a buddy of mine powder coat them. There is ONE leak...the bleeder screw. Don't worry Cal, the machined areas are bone dry! MC is dry too. But just one bleeder is leaking from the threads.

But I did ride anyway today and the dual disc is awesome. Feels great and the 14mm MC is very nice feeling.

[calj737]

Are the threads for the bleeder screw perfectly clean? If so, did you use any thread lubricant/sealant? They look really nice powder coated like that!

[Tews19]

Dave, what's up with your fork legs?  Fresh PC calipers and dirty legs bud?!

[DaveBarbier]

Threads are clean and the tip of the bleeder looks clean too. After powder coating I blew brake clean and compressed air through them before assembling. I didn't use any sealant or thread lube. But since the end of the bleeder is what does the sealing I would think I wouldn't need any sealant, right? And yeah, they look really good! I just got a small powder coating kit off eBay. Just need a small oven and I'll be able to powder coat stuff myself. Also going to get a small Harbor Freight blasting cabinet.

Tews, the fork legs are patina'd but they look way more marbled than they really are, haha. In person it's a slight grayish brown over the whole thing with a little bit of a variance in finish.

[calj737]

I still like some thread lube with steel into alloy... Maybe not Blue LocTite, but definitely something thin and corrosion resisting.

[DaveBarbier]

I still like some thread lube with steel into alloy... Maybe not Blue LocTite, but definitely something thin and corrosion resisting.

I'm going to remove the offending caliper today and disassemble and inspect the mating surfaces. I'll look into thread lube. Definitely don't want anything to seize in there. But with all my bleeding and removing calipers it won't have the chance, ha.

[DaveBarbier]

So speed bleeders do have some thread sealer on them, but as far as I know that's just to prevent leaks while it's cracked during the bleeding process. And this bleeder has the sealer worn off quite a bit. Both the caliper and speed bleeder's mating surfaces look fine (this caliper and speed bleeder didn't leak before the dual disc). I don't get why it's not sealing.

[DaveBarbier]

Cleaned the caliper completely again with brake clean and compressed air. First I ran a tap down the bleeder hole to clean the threads of debris and such. Went out to Advance Auto (because they were open on the 4th of July) and got some new regular bleeder screws. Bled the system again after a careful assembly of the caliper and am still getting weeping at the bleeder threads. If I use thread sealer, wouldn't it still come out the bleeder hole?

Weird question, but would it be possible to lap the bleeder sealing surface? I was thinking of grinding the threads off a bleeder screw so it could be spun in the hole and use some lapping compound in there. Terrible idea?

Another question: Am I asking too much of the brake system? If you all hold the brake lever back overnight are all joints perfectly dry in the morning?

[DaveBarbier]

Is the seal for the bleeder pressed in like the one for the brake line? Could I remove it and install another one?

[DaveBarbier]

Still leaking. What else is new...?

Last attempt at sealing before more drastic measures. Got an M7 tapered tap and cut it flush so I could get to the bottom of the threads. No place I went to had a bottoming tap. So I made my own. Also, read a few posts in other forums of people lapping bleeder seats using a bleeder valve with the threads ground off. The ones I read people has success in making it seal.

These are my weapons:


Cleaned the threads and it was really satisfying hearing the crunch noise of clearing the bottom of the threads.

Got out the lapping compound and lightly coated the tip of my new lapper. Went to town with light to moderate pressure by hand.



It appears much smoother. Hopefully it'll work. My other options are #1: bring the caliper to a machine shop and see if the machinist can recut a seat. At the appropriate angle. #2 get another caliper.

There are reproduction calipers on eBay. Anyone have experience with these?
http://pages.ebay.com/link/?nav=item.view&alt=web&id=231605310906&globalID=EBAY-US

[RAFster122s]

David Silvers Spares has sourced the reproduction caliper bodies.  Not sure if the eBay ones are less as I have not looked,  but, the DSS ones are backed by their policies.  So, I think I would have tried a new speed bleeder. It is possible that the seat was deformed. They are an insert but I have only seen them replaced with a large brass insert by harisluv or others and they then used a std bleeder or a to line directly.
I hope you are able to have a successful seal after the work you have done.

[DaveBarbier]

David Silvers Spares has sourced the reproduction caliper bodies.  Not sure if the eBay ones are less as I have not looked,  but, the DSS ones are backed by their policies.  So, I think I would have tried a new speed bleeder. It is possible that the seat was deformed. They are an insert but I have only seen them replaced with a large brass insert by harisluv or others and they then used a std bleeder or a to line directly.
I hope you are able to have a successful seal after the work you have done.

Just checked out DSS and they look identical, and pretty much the same cost. Thanks for that, if I end up buying one I'll get it from DSS.

I hope so too, thanks!

Edit: Still leaking. Pretty much the same amount. I'm just going to go ahead and get that caliper body from DSS.

[SOHC4 Cafe Racer Fan]

Hi Dave,

I just got my 674 kit.  The pistons look purty.  I was wondering whether you are going to use HD cylinder studs and nuts or use the stock bolts.  I was planning on using HD studs/nuts since the motor will have increased compression (and to try to limit leak variables).

Don

[madmtnmotors]

When I was researching case sealers for my 550 I was looking into Hondabond, gasgacinch, Yamabond, Loctite 518 and others. I ended up going with Loctite 518 (ONLY 518, not any other Loctite product) because of it's anaerobic properties. I could leave it on the case halves indefinitely and it won't cure. That lets me take my time and get the halves together making sure everything is mating perfectly without feeling rushed. Since it was my first time I felt I needed that security.



It's designed to work with aluminum zero tolerance mating surfaces. If any squeezes out inside the case it just gets washed off by the oil and never cures.

"Top Pick Loctite 518 Gasket Eliminator Flange Sealant forms a flexible, solvent-resistant seal that will not tear or decay. Seals to 300°F and fills gaps to 0.05" with primer. Recommended for use on rigid iron, steel and aluminum flanges. Easy disassembly and cleaning. Applications include gearbox, engine casings."
http://www.henkelna.com/about-henkel/product-search-1554.htm?nodeid=8797927604225

It mentions a primer but I read that it's not needed if the surfaces are impeccably clean using denatured alcohol and coffee filters. I LOVED working with it. Went on super smoothly and as you can read it doesn't harden but remains flexible and apparently that makes removal and cleaning super easy. And weirdly...it also smells like candy. It's the only thing I'll use on case halves. I can't find any reason not to use it.

So yeah, I was thinking of using that on the bearing but I don't think so now. The Loctite 518 doesn't seem to be engineered to withstand rotating forces. Might use a hardening sealer or nothing at all.


---
1978 Honda CB550K

Good stuff. I use it a lot as well.

[DaveBarbier]

Hi Dave,

I just got my 674 kit.  The pistons look purty.  I was wondering whether you are going to use HD cylinder studs and nuts or use the stock bolts.  I was planning on using HD studs/nuts since the motor will have increased compression (and to try to limit leak variables).

Don

Awesome, I can't wait for mine. Yeah I'm going to be using HD studs instead of the bolts. Also, might go for intake and exhaust head studs by ARP which Cal brought up. Might as well be broke with a secure intake and exhaust.

[SOHC4 Cafe Racer Fan]

Hi Dave,

I just got my 674 kit.  The pistons look purty.  I was wondering whether you are going to use HD cylinder studs and nuts or use the stock bolts.  I was planning on using HD studs/nuts since the motor will have increased compression (and to try to limit leak variables).

Don

I have found sources for the valvetrain, but the intake studs are not available.  Do you know the ARP part number or other source?

Awesome, I can't wait for mine. Yeah I'm going to be using HD studs instead of the bolts. Also, might go for intake and exhaust head studs by ARP which Cal brought up. Might as well be broke with a secure intake and exhaust.

[DaveBarbier]

Hi Dave,

I just got my 674 kit.  The pistons look purty.  I was wondering whether you are going to use HD cylinder studs and nuts or use the stock bolts.  I was planning on using HD studs/nuts since the motor will have increased compression (and to try to limit leak variables).

Don

I have found sources for the valvetrain, but the intake studs are not available.  Do you know the ARP part number or other source?

Awesome, I can't wait for mine. Yeah I'm going to be using HD studs instead of the bolts. Also, might go for intake and exhaust head studs by ARP which Cal brought up. Might as well be broke with a secure intake and exhaust.

I haven't even looked yet. Should be the same for the 550 and other bikes, no? My plan is really just to wait for you to do all the leg work then just ask you for part numbers when I'm about to buy. Or was that YOUR plan?!

But seriously, I have to get a move on with this.

[SOHC4 Cafe Racer Fan]

My plan is to get in all of the valvetrain parts, then send the head out for bead blast, disassembly, new seals/guides, Serdi, port and polish.  When funds get replenished, the cylinders will go out for bead blast and boring/honing.

I already have new primary and cam chains, I rebuilt the starter, so I have things coming together.  I am debating on whether to use a seal and gasket kit or to order the HONDA parts.  I'm leaning on going with genuine factory parts.

[SOHC4 Cafe Racer Fan]

Hi Dave,

I just got my 674 kit.  The pistons look purty.  I was wondering whether you are going to use HD cylinder studs and nuts or use the stock bolts.  I was planning on using HD studs/nuts since the motor will have increased compression (and to try to limit leak variables).

Don

I have found sources for the valvetrain, but the intake studs are not available.  Do you know the ARP part number or other source?

Awesome, I can't wait for mine. Yeah I'm going to be using HD studs instead of the bolts. Also, might go for intake and exhaust head studs by ARP which Cal brought up. Might as well be broke with a secure intake and exhaust.

I haven't even looked yet. Should be the same for the 550 and other bikes, no? My plan is really just to wait for you to do all the leg work then just ask you for part numbers when I'm about to buy. Or was that YOUR plan?!

But seriously, I have to get a move on with this.

Dave,

The bolt studs are 6X51 Honda Part 90044-426-300 (different than the 550).  If you cannot find a similar ARP part, then Western Hills Honda Yamaha has them for $2.65 each (http://www.westernhillshondayamaha.com/oempartfinder.htm#/Honda/CB650SC_A_%2882%29_MOTORCYCLE%2c_JPN%2c_VIN%23_JH2RC080-CM000013_TO_JH2RC080-CM019135/CYLINDER_HEAD/CB650SC-82-JPN-A/).  I found no other domestic supplier.  Only CMSNL for a whopping 5.5 Euros each plus an obscene amount in shipping -- comes out to 77 Euros!!  (http://www.cmsnl.com/products/bolt-stud-6x51_90044426300/#.VaB9MrWq_nh)

[SOHC4 Cafe Racer Fan]

partsfish.com has all of the valvetrain parts except intake valves.  For orders of $100 or more, use TENOFF to get $10 off your order (which will pretty much cover shipping).  partsfish.com part prices are very competitive and they ship relatively quickly.

If you need intake valves, there's an ebay vendor (hdhummer) who sells repros for $13.99 each.  (http://www.ebay.com/itm/New-Honda-CB650-Intake-Valve-14711-426-000-/171386022437?hash=item27e7672a25&vxp=mtr)  He also sells reproduction exhaust valves for $19.99 each.  (http://www.ebay.com/itm/New-Honda-CB650-Exhaust-Valve-/311114020458?hash=item486fd7366a&vxp=mtr)

[SOHC4 Cafe Racer Fan]

Valve seals are about the only valvetrain part that is the same as the 550.  The best price I found them was with Dynoman for $39 a set (of -- for the red Viton ones.

[DaveBarbier]

My plan is to get in all of the valvetrain parts, then send the head out for bead blast, disassembly, new seals/guides, Serdi, port and polish.  When funds get replenished, the cylinders will go out for bead blast and boring/honing.

I already have new primary and cam chains, I rebuilt the starter, so I have things coming together.  I am debating on whether to use a seal and gasket kit or to order the HONDA parts.  I'm leaning on going with genuine factory parts.

Thanks for all the info. I'll see what I can find for the studs. I will definitely be doing as many genuine seals and orings as I can. Right now my oil pan gasket is leaking (even from my rebuild a year ago with a brand new Vesrah kit) Just got a genuine Honda one in the mail and will replace that today. I don't like aftermarket kits when it comes to holding back oil. All my oil seals in the 550 are genuine and it makes me feel a lot better.