Author Topic: Head Removal In-frame CB750 K4 --Purist Be Warned !!  (Read 11648 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline RRRToolSolutions

  • Expert
  • ****
  • Posts: 1,167
  • I love old Japanese bikes!
Head Removal In-frame CB750 K4 --Purist Be Warned !!
« on: September 30, 2006, 05:42:35 PM »
I made a bold decission today. I'm going to take the time and energy to modify my frame to allow head removal in-frame. I've modified the engine to 836cc, added a big cam, ported the heads, added after market exhaust, K&N's - all to get the bike I wanted. The time and effort it will take to completely strip this bike down just to lay it down on a table and remove the engine so six $3 rubber seals can be glued in-place is not the way I want to do it. I'd rather spend that time engineering, carefully cutting with a Portaband, and machining barstock on a lathe to fit bolt-in frame tubes. Two of my new/modern bikes have bolt-in frame tubes for engine removal. It's practical, it can be done correctly, and it can be made safe.

I posted this here for input, please. Who has done it, what are your impressions afterwards, and what would you do different?

Today I rode over to my local speed shop to show the guys (father/son) the bike they did the head porting and 836cc bore work on for me. I showed them my leaks and they laughed - 30 minute job "at most". Obviously I'm not believing it - until I'm shown their 2 drag bikes. Both CB750 SOHC models. One is a 900cc and the other is something over 1,000cc. Both are sleeved, ported, extensive valve work, super-lift cams, and open headers - all for drag racing and heavy launches with big tires and wheelie bars.

Both bikes had the two horizontal frame tubes removed from the steering head to the front of the seat. These are the 2 that run just over the head cover. They don't run anything, just the single back-bone. I will not try that although they've done it for many years and thousands of passes down the strip.

I plan to cut those 2 tubes carefully, deburr the ends, have perfect-fit barstock inserts machined to fit into the 4 tube openings left after cutting. I'll take the removed pieces to a machine shop and have 1 side clam-shelled so it can be bolted onto the original frame in 4 locations and fit over the 4 barstock inserts. I've looked and the bolt heads will clear the tank and there is plenty of room for the locknuts to the inside. Even the trangulated center piece can be "tabbed" so that too can be drilled and stainless bolts used to "tie" it all into a stock configuration and retain high strength. I figure this will add 1/2 pound and the very most and I'll have a fully removable frame section that will allow head removal in-frame.

Honda would/should have done this back then. But, we know they were trying to hold pricing for their "new" superbike to those of the British 750's back in 1968 when the CB750 was launched.

Comments and photos please - I promise the same. I'll have this done at a friend's machine shop then powdercoat before adding the stainless hardware that will hold it together. All of this will absolutely invisible when the stock tank is in-place. The barstock inserts fit into the bike's frame and the removable tubes are bolted "onto" the inserts and then through-bolted for complete rigidity. I think it can be done - it should be done!

I don't really see the long-term potential of my modified K4 going up in value, so purist - give me a break ! I wouldn't dare do this to a K0, Z1, or an H2. This is "my" bike and meant to be ridden, enjoyed, modified more, played with, modified some more. What better way to enjoy a solid engine than with the option of easy head and cylinder removal ??

Regards,
Gordon



« Last Edit: September 30, 2006, 05:53:04 PM by Ilbikes »
Kaws, Hondas, Yamahas, and Suzukis - especially Kaws

carsholduptraffic

  • Guest
Re: Head Removal In-frame CB750 K4 --Purist Be Warned !!
« Reply #1 on: September 30, 2006, 06:06:45 PM »
what about just cutting out the spine tube & side rails & replacing it with a single larger diameter spine tube. pump the tank base a little to fir over it, then plumb the spine to run the oil, yammie xt500 style.
just a dream, but then you could launch into that mono shock conversion will the oil tank gone!

Offline scunny

  • Old Timer
  • ******
  • Posts: 4,618
  • don't call me expert
Re: Head Removal In-frame CB750 K4 --Purist Be Warned !!
« Reply #2 on: September 30, 2006, 06:23:14 PM »
I say go for it. Your theory seems sound. As you say, it's not a concourse resto. good luck and I look forward to pics
past-cb100,ts250,cb500,cb500,gs1000,gs650g.phillips traveller
present-CB 650 retro
            VTR1000F3
           XL250S riverbed rocket
           TS250[sold]
           TS185[sold]
           XL125S[sold]
           MT50 (white)
           MT50 (red)[sold]
           KN250/XS400 project
           XR/XL250 bitsa under construction
           SL100[sold]
           XL250R
           pedal(pub bike) leaks oil
my gallery http://gallery.sohc4.net/members/personal/scunny

Offline MRieck

  • Really Old Timer ...
  • *******
  • Posts: 10,598
  • Big ideas....
Re: Head Removal In-frame CB750 K4 --Purist Be Warned !!
« Reply #3 on: September 30, 2006, 06:37:47 PM »
Gordon..it has been done before BUT without your attention to detail. It will work (if you need a vote of support). Bimota did the same thing for years...I've seen it.
Owner of the "Million Dollar CB"

Offline Jerry Rxman Griffin aka MuthaF'er

  • This MuthaF'er is getting to be a
  • Really Old Timer ...
  • *******
  • Posts: 14,934
  • Bought her new 4/75
Re: Head Removal In-frame CB750 K4 --Purist Be Warned !!
« Reply #4 on: September 30, 2006, 07:09:31 PM »
Gordon,

There is a lot of guys that would tell you that you are nuts for affecting the frame integrity. I think the bar stock inside the frame tubes will make it stronger provided it bolts up properly. So, I'm not one of those guys. PICTURES & PROCEDURES required !! Go for it! I can show you a picture of my margarine tub sitting below my bike catching the oil dripping from the head due to the same issue. On top of that the friggin head gasket leaks too! Too many things to do to get me to pull the engine at this point. Gotta build my other engine first then it's bike. When I break down the SS from top to bottom I may just do the Gordon Frame Procedure.

Jerry   
As of today 3/13/2012 my original owner 75 CB750F has made it through 3 wives, er EX-wives. Free at last.  ;-)

Offline RRRToolSolutions

  • Expert
  • ****
  • Posts: 1,167
  • I love old Japanese bikes!
Re: Head Removal In-frame CB750 K4 --Purist Be Warned !!
« Reply #5 on: September 30, 2006, 07:29:33 PM »
Well then, I'll have to do it. I love thinking these things through and I've only gotten bit 10 or 12 times.... ;D

Here is how I did my H2B dragbike. I wanted a 3" extention and I really liked the bracing used on my ZRX, so my machinist friend and I started cutting, turning, and welding metal. The result is something I've received a lot of compliments over in the triples community. This is a good illustration of a machined insert and plug welds - absolutely stronger than stock.

I'll take photos and send the obituary out if not successful...

Thanks for the input guys,

Gordon






Kaws, Hondas, Yamahas, and Suzukis - especially Kaws

Offline MRieck

  • Really Old Timer ...
  • *******
  • Posts: 10,598
  • Big ideas....
Re: Head Removal In-frame CB750 K4 --Purist Be Warned !!
« Reply #6 on: September 30, 2006, 07:30:17 PM »
Gordon,

There is a lot of guys that would tell you that you are nuts for affecting the frame integrity. I think the bar stock inside the frame tubes will make it stronger provided it bolts up properly. So, I'm not one of those guys. PICTURES & PROCEDURES required !! Go for it! I can show you a picture of my margarine tub sitting below my bike catching the oil dripping from the head due to the same issue. On top of that the friggin head gasket leaks too! Too many things to do to get me to pull the engine at this point. Gotta build my other engine first then it's bike. When I break down the SS from top to bottom I may just do the Gordon Frame Procedure.

Jerry   
Jerry...I owe you an email. I wish I could type faster.
Owner of the "Million Dollar CB"

Offline mcpuffett

  • Master
  • *****
  • Posts: 2,354
Re: Head Removal In-frame CB750 K4 --Purist Be Warned !!
« Reply #7 on: October 01, 2006, 03:12:51 AM »
well reading your description and looking at your pictures i think you know what you are doing  ;), so why ask us ? , do it and post plenty of pictures plz, honda should have do this in the first place  :),     mick.
Honda CB750 KO 1970,   Honda VTX 1300 2006, Lancaster England.

Offline sparty

  • I just play one on TV
  • Master
  • *****
  • Posts: 1,788
  • My engine is 100% stock... wink.
    • Gallery
Re: Head Removal In-frame CB750 K4 --Purist Be Warned !!
« Reply #8 on: October 01, 2006, 06:29:23 AM »
I made a bold decission today. I'm going to take the time and energy to modify my frame to allow head removal in-frame. I've modified the engine to 836cc, added a big cam, ported the heads, added after market exhaust, K&N's - all to get the bike I wanted. The time and effort it will take to completely strip this bike down just to lay it down on a table and remove the engine so six $3 rubber seals can be glued in-place is not the way I want to do it. I'd rather spend that time engineering, carefully cutting with a Portaband, and machining barstock on a lathe to fit bolt-in frame tubes. Two of my new/modern bikes have bolt-in frame tubes for engine removal. It's practical, it can be done correctly, and it can be made safe.




Gordon,

Go for it, my bike was modified the same way.  I can unbolt the top of the frame and pull out the top end in minutes.  Just take your time.  Measure twice and cut once.  It will actually add a bit of weight to the bike in the end, but it is marginal.

Sparty
1972 CB750 K2 Cafe' Style




GO AWAY SNOW AND COLD!  Can you see the Hot Rod wants to run...
“That's thirty minutes away. I'll be there in ten.”

Offline nickjtc

  • I was numero dieci
  • Old Timer
  • ******
  • Posts: 4,210
  • Yamaha XT500 'Gromit'
Re: Head Removal In-frame CB750 K4 --Purist Be Warned !!
« Reply #9 on: October 01, 2006, 07:42:54 AM »
You might lose a tinch of torsional rigidity, but since this isn't going to be a 1000hp monster I cannot see how that would matter. As you rightly say, Honda should have done it in the first place.
Nick J. Member #3247

2008 Triumph Tiger 1050
1977 Suzuki GS750

"That which does not kill us reminds us to wear proper motorcycle clothing...."

Offline 750duo

  • Full Member
  • *
  • Posts: 79
Re: Head Removal In-frame CB750 K4 --Purist Be Warned !!
« Reply #10 on: October 03, 2006, 05:08:08 PM »
It sounds like you are on the right track.

I picked up a CB750 K3 with a portion of the lower upper tubing right over the cam cover removed and then replaced (some misguided PO  ??? ) Their problems started when they tried to weld the tubing back in. Very poor job - probably done with a torch (as opposed to a TIG or MIG) since it looks like they got the cam cover and other engine parts very very hot  :( :( :( .

I was considering how I could repair the damage and return the frame to its original rigidity. Your Idea sounds good.

Keep us posted on your progress and pics
1970 CB750 K0
1976 CB750 K6
1973 CB750 K3

Offline eurban

  • Master
  • *****
  • Posts: 1,625
Re: Head Removal In-frame CB750 K4 --Purist Be Warned !!
« Reply #11 on: October 04, 2006, 06:33:38 PM »
If I am not mistaken, some if not all years of the 750 autos had stock frames with either removable or bent tubes (can't remember which)  to allow head removal.  It might be worthwhile to examine how Honda engineered this change.

Offline RRRToolSolutions

  • Expert
  • ****
  • Posts: 1,167
  • I love old Japanese bikes!
Re: Head Removal In-frame CB750 K4 --Purist Be Warned !!
« Reply #12 on: October 04, 2006, 07:01:57 PM »
Sparty, anyone - can you post some pics? I'm heading over to the machine shop on Saturday for the cutting and powdercoat.

Thanks,
Gordon
Kaws, Hondas, Yamahas, and Suzukis - especially Kaws

Offline crazypj

  • I'm brill, me
  • Old Timer
  • ******
  • Posts: 4,467
  • first 100,000 miles. 1977 CB550F
Re: Head Removal In-frame CB750 K4 --Purist Be Warned !!
« Reply #13 on: October 04, 2006, 11:51:56 PM »
It works, its been done before. the drag bikes probably dont have particularly large front brakes and dont carry passengers high up so weight transfer onto front wheel isnt an issue. I'd say go for it. It should look pretty stock when completed and probably will be more rigid than standard frame as the tubes cant twist. ( if your fitting slugs you could make a triangulated section and still brace to top tube, heavy but a lot stronger than original)
A single large diameter top tube was used by Egli I believe?
PJ
I fake being smart pretty good
'you can take my word for it or argue until you find out I'm right'

Offline cben750f0

  • nothin draws attention like a classic bike!!
  • Master
  • *****
  • Posts: 1,612
  • '75 CB750F0 Gladstone NQLD OZ
Re: Head Removal In-frame CB750 K4 --Purist Be Warned !!
« Reply #14 on: October 05, 2006, 12:25:03 AM »
i remember this topic a while ago , posted by a young lad, and he got flamed big time for it ;)... was quite a fight... how come the consensus(?) has changed???.... ???

 interesting the dynamic of forums sometimes ::)....... BTW if you vcan make it stronger than stock.... go your hardest ;D

you need to keep a pic library of the work though...

peace
you are never to old, to act like a kid... be safe
funny thing,chasing someone down hill on a bike 30 years older than theirs..
he said \\\\\\\'it was like watching a 250kg unguided weapon getting stuck up you bum\\\\\\\ http://www.bikepics.com/members/trixtrem/

Offline mrbreeze

  • Not your average
  • Really Old Timer ...
  • *******
  • Posts: 5,902
  • Shut up when you're talkin' to me!!
Re: Head Removal In-frame CB750 K4 --Purist Be Warned !!
« Reply #15 on: October 05, 2006, 12:37:15 AM »
I say if anyone can come up with a proven design....then maybe I would check it out.Yeah sure.......it would be great to pull the head without yankin the motor out but I wouldn't want to risk weakening the frame to do it. Show some blue prints(and balanced please?).
MEMBER # 257
Fool me once..shame on you. Fool me twice..I'm kickin' your a$$......

Offline gtyler5

  • Enthusiast
  • **
  • Posts: 131
Re: Head Removal In-frame CB750 K4 --Purist Be Warned !!
« Reply #16 on: October 06, 2006, 01:17:26 PM »
These old frames are not all that sturdy, go for it! as long as you feel comfortable enough to know that it won't fall apart on the highway. Keep us posted too!
1976 CB750F cafe
1978 CB750F (in progress)
1993 CB750 Nighthawk

Offline Rhonda750F

  • Hot Shot
  • ***
  • Posts: 291
  • In the Works!
    • Gallery:
Re: Head Removal In-frame CB750 K4 --Purist Be Warned !!
« Reply #17 on: October 06, 2006, 01:33:08 PM »
I have a question for the owner of the Kow that was pictured.
Did they come with braced swingarms?  Because it sure looks damn fiine.

I wish I had a braced tube swing arm :-[..........Can your machinist friend fab one up for me! ;)
Paul Z.
1978 CB750 F rolling chassis for sale. PM me.

Offline RRRToolSolutions

  • Expert
  • ****
  • Posts: 1,167
  • I love old Japanese bikes!
Re: Head Removal In-frame CB750 K4 --Purist Be Warned !!
« Reply #18 on: October 06, 2006, 02:20:48 PM »
The 1970's Kawasakis did not. You'll have to make one. I liked the braced swingarm on my ZRX, but it's actually 1" shorter than a stock H2 swinger, so I copied it after adding 3" to it's length. Take care to allow for chain routing. The bottom links have to pass through the brace. This bike had to have the extra length and it's still what I call unridable.

Notice a resemblence?

Kaws, Hondas, Yamahas, and Suzukis - especially Kaws

Offline dusterdude

  • Really Old Timer ...
  • *******
  • Posts: 8,493
Re: Head Removal In-frame CB750 K4 --Purist Be Warned !!
« Reply #19 on: October 09, 2006, 01:30:20 PM »
who owns the dragbikes?i would love to get more info on them.
mark
1972 k1 750
1949 fl panhead
1 1/2 gl1100 goldwings
1998 cbr600 f3

Offline RRRToolSolutions

  • Expert
  • ****
  • Posts: 1,167
  • I love old Japanese bikes!
Re: Head Removal In-frame CB750 K4 --Purist Be Warned !!
« Reply #20 on: October 09, 2006, 01:38:13 PM »
I call this my drag bike. It's a 1974 H2 750 mod/restoration I did last year. The motor was done to 160 horse specs by a shop in upstate New York. The swingarm is lengthened by 3" and the clubmans are a hard reach down for an old guy like me. This bike could not be ridden otherwise and is a handful now. I rode it Saturday and about 10 miles is my max. It's built for 1/4 mile runs and a younger butt.

Regards,
Gordon

Kaws, Hondas, Yamahas, and Suzukis - especially Kaws

Offline dusterdude

  • Really Old Timer ...
  • *******
  • Posts: 8,493
Re: Head Removal In-frame CB750 K4 --Purist Be Warned !!
« Reply #21 on: October 09, 2006, 01:46:04 PM »
thats a very nice ride there,but nothin personal i was talking about the 2 hondas
mark
1972 k1 750
1949 fl panhead
1 1/2 gl1100 goldwings
1998 cbr600 f3

Offline MRieck

  • Really Old Timer ...
  • *******
  • Posts: 10,598
  • Big ideas....
Re: Head Removal In-frame CB750 K4 --Purist Be Warned !!
« Reply #22 on: October 09, 2006, 04:42:36 PM »
That sure is a nice,clean shop you have Gordon. Do you have a bike lift (Handy etc)?
Owner of the "Million Dollar CB"

Offline Sam Green Racing

  • Really Old Timer ...
  • *******
  • Posts: 16,070
  • I REALLY? hate black rims.
Re: Head Removal In-frame CB750 K4 --Purist Be Warned !!
« Reply #23 on: October 09, 2006, 05:20:20 PM »
Gordon, stop moaning about your age,.....just get it on the drag strip and do it.  ;D ;D ;D

A lot of the guys that do well over here are the older ones, one is 70 :o :o :o

Sam. ;)
C95 sprint bike.
CB95 hybrid race bike
CB95 race bike
CB92
RS 175. sprint/land speed bike
JMR Racing CB750A street ET drag bike

Offline Sam Green Racing

  • Really Old Timer ...
  • *******
  • Posts: 16,070
  • I REALLY? hate black rims.
Re: Head Removal In-frame CB750 K4 --Purist Be Warned !!
« Reply #24 on: October 09, 2006, 05:31:39 PM »
Gordon, don't know if this will work, if it dose, scroll through the pics till you find one of a big kawasaki with a blue nitrous bottle.

Also look at the surface they have to ride on.

The guy is 70, and was the first person to run an 8 in Europe on a blown Triumph.

Sam.

http://sprinting.org.uk/results06/meeting18/gallery/index.html
C95 sprint bike.
CB95 hybrid race bike
CB95 race bike
CB92
RS 175. sprint/land speed bike
JMR Racing CB750A street ET drag bike