Author Topic: To use Synthetic oil or not to use Synthetic Oil is the question?  (Read 17760 times)

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Offline PeWe

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Re: To use Synthetic oil or not to use Synthetic Oil is the question?
« Reply #75 on: November 16, 2014, 05:27:22 AM »
Quote
what new info did you learn in this thread?
That prices for synthetic oil in Sweden are outrageously high. Surely, during your next social gathering, you will be able to use this to your advantage while people listen in awe to your detailed knowledge about a country that most people in the States would not find on an unmarked map of Europe.  There you go: Both, educational and entertaining.

Yes, horrible oil maffia here. There is one very good synthetic oil for cars that can be found cheap at swedol.se  with local shop in my town.
If I leave my car for Service at an Audi dealer they will charge me $30US/liter for the oil Castrol Edge/SLX 5W-30 or similar. I bought 24L oil from Levoil.de for about $203US with shipping inside my door. Aral Super Tronic 0W-40 same level or better than the Castrol Edge/SLX. PAO based synthetic. I'm not sure about Castrol.

Order from Germany:
www.levoil.de   
www.mapodo.de 
www.oil-center.de/en 
http://stores.ebay.de/Frinken-Racing   mostly motorcycle oils here

BUT, which oil will work with the CB750 clutch without drag and/or not finding the neutral when warm?????
Castrol Act Evo 4T mineral oil does not work. Horrible clutch problems  >:( I wonder if the cam with bearings will be destroyed too? ???

I know ONE oil that work well so far, but a few resellers here in Europe and NOT cheap. Red Line 20W-50 motorcycle oil, esther based synthetic (best you can get) with plenty of zinc for about $35US/ bottle (US quarts) with shipping within Sweden.

Is ELF, Motul, Motorex etc that Frinken-Racing sell OK?   We need a list of tested oils without clutch issues and will lubricate the cam and valve train as a CB750 oil must do. Another list of stay-away oils.

Mapodo and most of the others have Castrol that I do not trust after testing the mineral oil that should be extra good according to their commercial, my bike say something else!

« Last Edit: November 16, 2014, 05:35:08 AM by PeWe »
CB750 K6-76  970cc (Earlier 1005cc JMR Billet block on the shelf waiting for a comeback)
CB750 K2-75 Parts assembled to a stock K2

Updates of the CB750 K6 -1976
http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php/topic,180468.msg2092136.html#msg2092136
The billet block build thread
http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php/topic,49438.msg1863571.html#msg1863571
CB750 K2 -1975  build thread
http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php/topic,168243.msg1948381.html#msg1948381
K2 engine build thread. For a complete CB750 -75
http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php/topic,180088.msg2088008.html#msg2088008
Carb jetting, a long story Mikuni TMR32
http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php/topic,179479.msg2104967.html#msg2104967

Offline HondaMan

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Re: To use Synthetic oil or not to use Synthetic Oil is the question?
« Reply #76 on: November 21, 2014, 06:56:04 PM »
Hondaman, Now what do I do with the 8 quarts of the Valvoline oil I just bought? Dan

Add some of the ZDDP to it. This killed most of the foaming, and made the clutch happier. After you've used it up, you can get something even better! It will help during break-in by foaming and carrying away the crud introduced while the engine was apart, so in that way it is not a 'bad' thing. Once the engine is broken in and clean, this action is not needed anymore. The foaming eventually quits: I am just VERY picky about my old friend's diet....

I didn't have 'trouble' with it so much as the noise from the engine bothers me (the Vetter reflects it loudly to your face!), and on the 2 days of 90+ degree temps, following the Interstate portion of my commute (engine is hottest there for about 10 more minutes, or 3 traffic lights) it had some troubles with getting to Neutral. After a few more minutes of moving down the road (in traffic, but moving) it cooled back off and the shifting improved. This is one of the areas where several oils come up marginal: it foams a little bit at (real high) hiway speeds, and then when off-ramping, this foam causes loss of some of the oil performance in the 2 tranny shafts. This 'loss' is due to the foaming oil reducing the lube for the gears to slide sideways when asked, so they get a bit sticky for these small movements. Then, after a few minutes of slower traffic with air passing over the bottom of the oil pan, this hotter, foamy oil (which is being fed to the tranny) loses its bubbles and thickens back up a little more, and the tranny becomes happy again.

The 'best' oils in these engines have been the [very few] ones that specifically DON'T do this. Honda was smart enough to know this tranny was going to whip the oil, and added the oil tank to prevent this foam from reaching the bearings where it could become a problem (felt as power fade, like in the other SOHC4 bikes). The other Fours have even wider crank/rod bearings than the 750 does (and the 750 are almost 180% oversize for up to 811cc), so in the long run they have not suffered bearing loss due to foam, as the bearings are so lightly loaded (per square mm surface).

If I were 'stuck' without the EXL, like on a tour somewhere, I'd definitely turn to this Valvoline oil instead of stretching out the oil change interval. I am just highly impressed with the EXL now, and will be seeking it out so I can return to the experiences of my youth! :D   I always enjoyed changing the oil "on time" or early, the filter every 2nd time, and polishing something while it all drained. It's sort of like having a pet that doesn't eat much or pee on the carpet, and always listens to me. ;)
See SOHC4shop@gmail.com for info about the gadgets I make for these bikes.

The demons are repulsed when a man does good. Use that.
Blood is thicker than water, but motor oil is thicker yet...so, don't mess with my SOHC4, or I might have to hurt you.
Hondaman's creed: "Bikers are family. Treat them accordingly."

Link to Hondaman Ignition: http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php?topic=67543.0

Link to My CB750 Book: https://www.lulu.com/search?adult_audience_rating=00&page=1&pageSize=10&q=my+cb750+book

Link to website: www.SOHC4shop.com

Offline dave500

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Re: To use Synthetic oil or not to use Synthetic Oil is the question?
« Reply #77 on: November 21, 2014, 09:12:32 PM »
all bike transmissions whip the oil,but don't forget only two gears are putting true pressure on it at any one time,save the primary drive,what goes on in your average diesel truck engine timing case?anyone seen inside a common Japanese light medium or heavy duty engine timing case?most of these have a myriad of loaded gears/ idlers etc all with a lot of pressure on them all the time,just food for thought,i think?

Offline Whaleman

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Re: To use Synthetic oil or not to use Synthetic Oil is the question?
« Reply #78 on: November 22, 2014, 04:26:40 AM »
Hondaman, I bought the Bel Ray. I always use ZDDP. Is it a mistake to use ZDDP in the Bel Ray EXL? Dan  PS: The inside the petcock sintered metal fuel filter that I sent you a sample to test is working perfectly for me. I never have anything in my float bowls when I drain them. Have you ever tested it? I actually thought you would like it and start selling kits.

Offline HondaMan

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Re: To use Synthetic oil or not to use Synthetic Oil is the question?
« Reply #79 on: November 23, 2014, 10:20:26 PM »
Hondaman, I bought the Bel Ray. I always use ZDDP. Is it a mistake to use ZDDP in the Bel Ray EXL? Dan  PS: The inside the petcock sintered metal fuel filter that I sent you a sample to test is working perfectly for me. I never have anything in my float bowls when I drain them. Have you ever tested it? I actually thought you would like it and start selling kits.

The ZDDP: despite some claims about "too much zinc", I just recently finished [re]building a 750K2 that obviously had LARGE amounts of zinc added, so much so that it lined all the cases and parts inside. At first I was leery of what I would find: in the end, I could find NO measurable wear on any bearing, cam lobe, or rocker foot. The only place where some wear showed up at all was in the ends of the rocker shafts (this K2 has free-rotation shafts) where it appeared the zinc had piled up so much it prevented oil from reaching past the "dam", and some polishing appeared out on the last 1/4" or so of the ends of those 2 shafts. No measureable wear, just polishing. The clutch, despite it sitting now for many years, still had 98% thickness on each plate (it has about 20k miles on it) and the steel ones look like they just came out of a Honda package.

The engine had to be rebuilt because someone took off the carbs and let it sit, and it rusted a cylinder.

The filter: I still have it: I would like to put it into mine this winter to see if it causes any fuel flow issues at high speeds. I've had so many things 'going on' the last 2 years with engines (10 this year), swingarms (30 in this last 12 months alone) and carb rebuilds (lost count) that I haven't had any time to devote to making any new kits yet? I have several other ideas, too, just not enough hours. I also now have 6 CB750s, a CB125S, and a [lonely] CB350F to build. And I'd like to bring out a couple more books, in my spare time?
:)
See SOHC4shop@gmail.com for info about the gadgets I make for these bikes.

The demons are repulsed when a man does good. Use that.
Blood is thicker than water, but motor oil is thicker yet...so, don't mess with my SOHC4, or I might have to hurt you.
Hondaman's creed: "Bikers are family. Treat them accordingly."

Link to Hondaman Ignition: http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php?topic=67543.0

Link to My CB750 Book: https://www.lulu.com/search?adult_audience_rating=00&page=1&pageSize=10&q=my+cb750+book

Link to website: www.SOHC4shop.com

Offline dave500

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Re: To use Synthetic oil or not to use Synthetic Oil is the question?
« Reply #80 on: November 23, 2014, 10:39:55 PM »
your a glutten for punishment!

Offline Whaleman

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Re: To use Synthetic oil or not to use Synthetic Oil is the question?
« Reply #81 on: November 24, 2014, 05:10:47 AM »
Hondaman, You will not have any problem at high speed. I also realize that kits for this would include a new brass screen, a 5 minute reworked sintered filter and a spring. It would not be able to sell for enough to be worth your time. Just use it for youself. Thanks Dan

Offline Lurch77

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Re: To use Synthetic oil or not to use Synthetic Oil is the question?
« Reply #82 on: March 17, 2015, 03:13:54 PM »
Sorry, I'm a new guy. I found this thread in a forum search. And since I certainly didn't want to start yet another new oil thread, I'll ask here.

In the oil FAQ on this forum there is this comment.

Quote
Don’t use synthetics. Synthetics have a reputation for a high detergent action. That is, if you have an old engine that has some sludge or deposits internally, the synthetic will sometimes remove it in chunks. There is some risk of plugging or restricting the oil pickup
screen, which would starve the engine of oil.

I have heard of sludge being cleaned up, which can cause leaks to form where it was the sludge only that was preventing them. My opinion is that the seals needed to be replaced anyway, then. But I digress. My question is about sludge breaking off in chunks. I have never heard of this before. Is this a common problem? Maybe with these bikes specifically? Yes, on a very sludged up engine you'll need to change oil and filter sooner than later as the sludge is cleaned, suspended, and trapped in the filter. But what about this chunking of sludge plugging the pick up or passages, etc? Is this a serious concern?

Offline 70CB750

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Re: To use Synthetic oil or not to use Synthetic Oil is the question?
« Reply #83 on: March 18, 2015, 03:38:59 AM »
Guess I'm bucking the trend here, but I plan on using regular old dino oil in my '79 CB650 and my '87 Cagiva 650.  If I change the oil/filter every 5000 miles or 12 months anyway, I don't think the synthetic stuff is worth the extra money.  I'm not really brand specific either, more concerned about getting the right weight (probably 10w40 now that it's getting colder, 20w50 for the warmer temps).  My thinking is that synthetic oil wasn't really common back when these bikes were built, manufacturing tolerances aren't as tight or synthetic oil friendly as they are now, so I'm sticking with dino oil.

I am with you, dino Castrol 20W50 in summer, 15W40 Mobil Delvac in winter.

Edit:  Actually Valvoline instead of Castrol since last spring or so.

And I add zddp and there is no difference in the clutch or anything except oil pressure when idling hot of course.
« Last Edit: March 18, 2015, 03:43:19 AM by 70CB750 »
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Offline Dino

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Re: To use Synthetic oil or not to use Synthetic Oil is the question?
« Reply #84 on: March 18, 2015, 04:12:21 AM »
OK how about some science. This is a copy of an article from the Hemmings Classic Car Blog. Get another bag of popcorn, read and learn about zinc and older engines.

Tech 101: Zinc in oil and its effects on older engines

There has been a lot of confusion in the last few years about the lowering of zinc and phosphorus levels in modern oils and how these lower levels relate to classic and performance engines using standard flat tappet lifters – that is, just about every car built before the Eighties. The concern involves the use of the new lower zinc/phosphorus-content ILSAC (multi-viscosity) oils, readily available on shelves at auto parts stores everywhere, and how compatible they are with these older engines.

When anyone mentions zinc, they are actually referring to zinc dialkyldithiophosphate, a compound invented by Castrol for use in mineral-based oils or zinc di-thiophosphate (ZDTP), which is normally used in synthetic oils. Both have been used as an anti-wear ingredient in engine oil for many years. The zinc and phosphorus ingredients appear to be most effective when they are used together. ZDDP/ZDTP is one of many additives that are put into conventional motor oil to improve its lubrication qualities. Other ingredients such as boron and molybdenum are also added as lubricant enhancers.

What was discovered through oil testing by several engine component manufacturers is that many older engines experience a short period of time during engine start-up where critical lubrication is insufficient between metal-to-metal lubrication points when using modern oils with reduced amounts of ZDDP/ZDTP. These same enhancers unfortunately have their downside: The phosphorus in this compound creates carbon buildup in engine bores and valvetrains, and both compounds can also lead to the early demise of catalytic converters. For this reason, the industry has been phasing out zinc and phosphorus levels since 1994, when the American Petroleum Institute’s SH designation became the industry standard, and levels have been further reduced in each subsequent API rating for engine oils. Manufacturers have tried adding more boron to offset the effects of the reduced zinc and phosphorus levels; however, the dry start protection does not measure up to those using more ZDDP/ZDTP. This has opened up a whole new market for zinc/phosphorus additives for oil and many camshaft and engine manufacturers now recommend that an additive be used in initial break-in and for regular use.

All engine oils are rated for viscosity by the SAE as well as additive content by the API; passenger car ratings are two-letter designations that start with “S.” Heavy-duty or off-road equipment ratings start with “C.” The current API oil rating for passenger cars (gasoline engines) is SM and for trucks (diesel engines) CJ-4. Within these designations, you can determine how much zinc and how many other chemicals are present in the ILSAC (multi-viscosity) oils. These levels do not apply to straight-weight oils. If levels in the ILSAC oils are too high for the API specification, they cannot be rated for the current specification unless the container specifies “for racing or off-road use only” or “for use in classic cars.” This has caused oil companies to reduce levels of many additives, including zinc and phosphorus, to the required maximum in order to meet the current specification. Listed here are the current specifications for maximum amounts of additives to achieve the API ratings. P is phosphorus, Zn is zinc, and B is boron. Each figure is total parts per million of additives. These can also be roughly expressed in percentages by multiplying by .0001 (1301 PPM = .13 percent, 994 PPM = .099 percent)

API   P   Zn   B
SJ   1301   1280   151
CI-4   1150   1374   83
SL   994   1182   133
CJ-4   819   1014   26
SM   770   939   127
Most engine and engine component manufacturers recommend zinc and phosphorus content of more than 1,200 PPM for break-in; in fact, many will void warranties on camshafts or crate engines if this minimum is not found in the oil sample you supply when returning broken parts for warranty. For this reason, many manufacturers produce their own zinc additives or oils with supplementary zinc included; GM even offers its own break-in oil with additional ZDDP. With respect to readily available oil, you can see from the chart that, if you can find oil still on the shelf rated SJ or SL, you can use them, but you are right on the cusp of voiding a warranty. New SM oils are just not going to cut it unless they have a zinc additive to boost the rating and one of the zinc supplements should be used with these oils or oils containing additional ZDDP additives are recommended. Some enthusiasts have recommended using commercially rated CI-4 15W40 diesel oil to meet the zinc and phosphorus additive requirement; however, CI-4 is an old specification and hard to locate. You can see that the CJ-4 specification that now supersedes it is well below acceptable levels. Our best recommendation is that you contact your oil supplier for exact additive contents. Many straight-weight oils do not have to meet the ILSAC API specifications to be sold as SM or CJ-4, so this may be an alternative. Classic car oils with elevated levels of ZDDP/ZDTP are also being offered by many suppliers. Regardless, if you are purchasing off-the-shelf oil for your classic car, ILSAC multi-viscosity oils rated SM or CJ-4 should have stated zinc and phosphorus additive supplements for use in older engines or an additional separate additive should be purchased and used with the new oil. As the new API rating SN becomes available in the next year, even more caution should be taken as the levels will be reduced even further.

- See more at: http://blog.hemmings.com/index.php/2012/10/18/tech-101-zinc-in-oil-and-its-effects-on-older-engines/comment-page-2/#sthash.FAGTdGkQ.dpuf
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Offline PeWe

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Re: To use Synthetic oil or not to use Synthetic Oil is the question?
« Reply #85 on: March 18, 2015, 04:42:07 AM »
Sorry, I'm a new guy. I found this thread in a forum search. And since I certainly didn't want to start yet another new oil thread, I'll ask here.

In the oil FAQ on this forum there is this comment.

Quote
Don’t use synthetics. Synthetics have a reputation for a high detergent action. That is, if you have an old engine that has some sludge or deposits internally, the synthetic will sometimes remove it in chunks. There is some risk of plugging or restricting the oil pickup
screen, which would starve the engine of oil.

I have heard of sludge being cleaned up, which can cause leaks to form where it was the sludge only that was preventing them. My opinion is that the seals needed to be replaced anyway, then. But I digress. My question is about sludge breaking off in chunks. I have never heard of this before. Is this a common problem? Maybe with these bikes specifically? Yes, on a very sludged up engine you'll need to change oil and filter sooner than later as the sludge is cleaned, suspended, and trapped in the filter. But what about this chunking of sludge plugging the pick up or passages, etc? Is this a serious concern?
If you have got oil sludge in the engine, the oil change interval is too many miles.
I have changed oil in my CB750 every 8000km's, NO oil sludge at all. This was back in the days. I guess I'll change every 5000kms from this year with less driving than before where one touring going south in Europe was 6000km's.

Oils sludge is very common in car engines, especially engines with small amount of oil and turbo.
Some Audi/VW owners had changed oil every 25.000-30.000 kms that created a lot of sludge blocking the oil pump (and hoses to turbo carbonized due to degraded oil). This has been an actual law suit in USA 2011. Toyota too.
I change oil in my Audi with affected engine 1.8T withing 15.000km's. Oil specified VW 502.00, fully synthetic. I have washed the car engine twice with Bilstein Engine Flush and additional engine cleaner in old oil before change, Omega 907.

If an oil cause sludge in a CB750 that gets its oil change before 8.000-10.000km's, really bad oil. Buy something better.
CB750 K6-76  970cc (Earlier 1005cc JMR Billet block on the shelf waiting for a comeback)
CB750 K2-75 Parts assembled to a stock K2

Updates of the CB750 K6 -1976
http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php/topic,180468.msg2092136.html#msg2092136
The billet block build thread
http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php/topic,49438.msg1863571.html#msg1863571
CB750 K2 -1975  build thread
http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php/topic,168243.msg1948381.html#msg1948381
K2 engine build thread. For a complete CB750 -75
http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php/topic,180088.msg2088008.html#msg2088008
Carb jetting, a long story Mikuni TMR32
http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php/topic,179479.msg2104967.html#msg2104967

Offline Muckinfuss

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Re: To use Synthetic oil or not to use Synthetic Oil is the question?
« Reply #86 on: March 18, 2015, 08:14:59 AM »
I do know that most small engine mfr's are hot on the zinc thing as well.....which is why they spec non syn straight wt oils.  30wt being most likely the one in the manual for your snowblower, lawnmower, etc.  I guess it's the same old same old.....read the manual and do what it says.
« Last Edit: March 18, 2015, 08:16:43 AM by Muckinfuss »
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Offline Lurch77

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Re: To use Synthetic oil or not to use Synthetic Oil is the question?
« Reply #87 on: March 18, 2015, 05:34:08 PM »
The concern I have with my bike is that it is being passed down to me by my dad, who bought it new. It sat in storage for at least 11 years before my dad had a cycle shop bring it back to life. The engine oil sat in that engine for all those years. And I don't know what brand or how often he changed it before that. He's ridden it a year since it was brought back to life. But I don't know what oil it has now.

So long story short, I have no real idea of the history, and need to assume worst case as I start riding and maintain it myself.

Offline seanbarney41

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Re: To use Synthetic oil or not to use Synthetic Oil is the question?
« Reply #88 on: March 18, 2015, 06:30:29 PM »
Lurch, if your bike is running and riding regularly for the last year, you have little to worry about.  Just keep changing the oil and filters at the factory recommended intervals and use a quality motorcycle approved oil.  Unless you ride when it is very cold, 20w50 works best in these.  If you have further concerns, just drop the oil pan for a peek-a-boo.  Even if you find terrifying results, it's not necessarily a death sentence.  I have found alarming schrapnel in just about every sohc4 I have looked in...and mostly just continued to use them for several thousand more trouble free miles.  These are some of the most bullet proof motors ever made and a poor oil choice is only gonna make so much difference...so get the best that your research leads you to and enjoy riding.
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Offline DaveBarbier

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Re: To use Synthetic oil or not to use Synthetic Oil is the question?
« Reply #89 on: March 18, 2015, 08:14:13 PM »

Even if you find terrifying results, it's not necessarily a death sentence.  I have found alarming schrapnel in just about every sohc4 I have looked in.

Agreed. I found a chunk of a gear in my oil pan and before that I didn't experience anything strange. It ran and shifted just fine. I ended up replacing the transmission for a $40 used one from ebay and did an engine rebuild while I was at it. Seems to be working just fine now. These bikes are definitely the AK47 of motorcycles.


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Offline Deltarider

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Re: To use Synthetic oil or not to use Synthetic Oil is the question?
« Reply #90 on: March 19, 2015, 12:44:43 AM »
Quote
These bikes are definitely the AK47 of motorcycles.
Yep, just don't get in front of them. ;D
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