Author Topic: Sprocket teeth  (Read 3008 times)

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Offline Mark M

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Sprocket teeth
« on: October 15, 2006, 04:29:19 PM »
I was talking to and engineers the other day, he worked both for Fords and a few bike race teams. So I presume
he knows his stuff.

He said something interesting about sprockets.

"front sprockets should have a prime number of teeth"

at the time this made sence. with a prime number the sprocket engagement will move round the chain and spread the wear evenly.

With a little more thaught it occured to me that a more significant number is the number of links in the chain. If this is the prime then surely that will give the same result and have the same effect on both sprockets!

Discuss! 
 
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Offline Bob Wessner

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Re: Sprocket teeth
« Reply #1 on: October 15, 2006, 04:48:32 PM »
I'm assuming you mean "prime" as in the math definition? Hmm, never hear that one before. I'm definitely no mathematician (hated algebra >:(). I guess I always thought that if the sprocket(s) dimensions between the teeth matched the chain dimensions it wouldn't matter. I will watch this with interest and, as usual, learn something I'm sure.
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Re: Sprocket teeth
« Reply #2 on: October 15, 2006, 06:07:38 PM »
I was talking to and engineers the other day, he worked both for Fords and a few bike race teams. So I presume
he knows his stuff.

He said something interesting about sprockets.

"front sprockets should have a prime number of teeth"

at the time this made sence. with a prime number the sprocket engagement will move round the chain and spread the wear evenly.

With a little more thaught it occured to me that a more significant number is the number of links in the chain. If this is the prime then surely that will give the same result and have the same effect on both sprockets!

Discuss! 
 

If I understand this prime number thing correctly ... A good example would be the early CB750 (KO) with the 17 tooth front sprocket.

The 17T front sprocket would be a prime number based on this calculator:

http://www.math.com/students/calculators/source/prime-number.htm

The later CB750's with the 18T front sprocket would not be a prime number.

Offline kghost

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Re: Sprocket teeth
« Reply #3 on: October 15, 2006, 06:48:58 PM »
I lack about twenty credit hours for a mechanical engineering degree........

I believe a sprocket should have teeth  ;D

Anyways.....

I pirated this but I did remember something about this way back in college days.....

About Chain Wear: This is about the impact of sprockets number of teeth on chain / kit wearing.

Hypothesis:

The wear of the chain depends on the frequency the same link hits the same sprocket tooth. The more often the hit, the faster the wear.

Principles:

We must calculate how many chain revolutions are necessary for a given link to hit a given tooth.

A chain link can hit a given sprocket tooth from once per chain revolution (higher wear, a given link always hits the same tooth at each chain revolution) to once per a number of revolution equal to the number of sprocket teeth (lower wear, a given link hits the another tooth at each revolution and it takes "number of teeth" chain revolutions to hit aga the given tooth).

Example: Faster wear - the same links always hits the same tooth at each chain revolution
Chain:123456789
Tooth:123123123 1st rev (tooth 1 hits links 1,4,7 during the fist chain revolution)
Tooth:123123123 2nd rev (tooth 1 hits the same link during the second revolution
 
Example: Longer wear - it takes 'number of teeth' revolutions to hit again the same tooth
Chain:123456789
Tooth:123412341 1st rev (tooth 1 hits links 1,5,9)
Tooth:234123412 2nd rev (tooth 1 hits links 4, 8)
Tooth:341234123 3rd rev (tooth 1 hits links 3,7)
Tooth:412341234 4th rev (tooth 1 hits links 2,6)
Tooth:123412341 5th rev : equal to 1 rev : it takes 4 rev to hit again the same tooth
 

Calculus:

The same tooth hits the same link at revolution number R when R x [number of links] is divisible by [number of teeth]

Alternatively, using a spreadsheet, the following will work: Teeth / GCD(Links, Teeth), where GCD is the Greatest Common Denominator

Data:

Links Front Sprocket (teeth) Rear Sprocket (teeth) Comments
14 15 16 17 18 43 44 45 46 47 48 49 50 51 52
108 7 5 4 17 1 43 11 5 23 47 4 49 25 17 13   
110 7 3 8 17 9 43 2 9 23 47 24 49 5 51 26 Classic Stock (16/47)
112 1 15 1 17 9 43 11 45 23 47 3 7 25 51 13 GS/Dakar Stock (16/47)
114 7 5 8 17 3 43 22 15 23 47 8 49 25 17 26   
116 7 15 4 17 9 43 11 45 23 47 12 49 25 51 13   
118 7 15 8 17 9 43 22 45 23 47 24 49 25 51 26   
120 7 1 2 17 3 43 11 3 23 47 2 49 5 17 13   

Table: Number of revolutions necessary for the same tooth to hit the same link

Color Meaning
  Worst Possible Score
  Best Possible Score

Conclusions:

The stock 47 is very good scored because it takes 47 chain rev for the same tooth hits the same link (highest theoretic score) - this is regardless of the number of chain links. (compare this to the 4 rev of a 48 or 17 of a 52).
The stock 16 has a score of 8 rev (on the classic) which is not that bad because I think know it's hard to use the 17 (lack ofspace) On the GS though, the 16T has a score of 1 rev (the worst possible!) - you would be better off going to the 15T
Anyway the 16 wears faster than the 47, but that is no surprise because it is much smaller (top theoretic score for the 16 is 8 rev - see detailed observations below).
The 15 scores bad with only 3 rev for the same tooth hits the same link. Comparing with the 16, can we say the wear is more than 2.5 higher? And the kit will last 2.5 less time?

Detailed Observations: Here are some more detailed observations based on the table above...

Even numbers of teeth on sprockets will never achieve an optimum wear - This is due to the even number of teeth in the chain, and the nature of mathematics behind this. Thus a 16 tooth sprocket can only achieve a maximum of 8!
A prime number of teeth will always achieve the optimum wear pattern - see the 17T front and 47T rear sprockets
The 15T on a 112 link chain is an odd case - the remainer of 112 divided by 15 is a prime number, and thus results in an optimum theoretical wear.

A help to make the kit last longer (on a classic) could be to manually shift the chain along 1Tooth every 1000km! On the GS you are probably better off using a 15 or 17T sprocket.

The other thing that always springs ot mind is the number of teeth. Even numbers of teeth have stress patterns across them that let the wheel flex as it turns (gap opposite gap). Odd numbers of teeth avoid this, but can sort of ripple on the way round (divisible by 3, gap opposite tooth on each pair of 3 tooth groups). Prime numbers of teeth avoid even this. Flexing and rippling let the side-plates of the chain contact the teeth with more force, rather than the rollers. 47 is a prime number so BMW got their sums right. 16 is even. 17 would be better.>


Link to the whole artic.  http://faq.f650.com/FAQs/SprocketsOtherSizesFAQ.htm#Section%202:%20Modification%20and%20Theory
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Offline Bob Wessner

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Re: Sprocket teeth
« Reply #4 on: October 15, 2006, 07:09:07 PM »
Pretty convincing stuff. See, I did learn something. ::)

Oh, and I hated Calculus also.  ;D
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Offline nickjtc

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Re: Sprocket teeth
« Reply #5 on: October 15, 2006, 07:21:22 PM »
I lack about twenty credit hours for a mechanical engineering degree........

I believe a sprocket should have teeth  ;D
Hypothesis:
Principles:
Example:
Calculus:
Data:
Conclusions:
Detailed Observations:

Are we there yet....? Wow, that's impressive stuff.

As long as you keep your chain maintained (clean and adjusted; pick your poison, as you all know I am a Scottoiler devotee), and change chain with sprockets as a set set you will get optimum wear characteristics ASSUMING no wheelies or what not. And don't have too small a front sprocket if you want to change gearing. Better to make the back bigger than the front smaller.
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Offline petercb750

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Re: Sprocket teeth
« Reply #6 on: October 15, 2006, 07:23:13 PM »
I've got a headache........I'll just stick to my 18/48.
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Offline kghost

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Re: Sprocket teeth
« Reply #7 on: October 15, 2006, 07:30:02 PM »
I've got a headache........I'll just stick to my 18/48.

Niether of which are prime.....both divide by two (2).  ::) ;D
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Offline Bob Wessner

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Re: Sprocket teeth
« Reply #8 on: October 15, 2006, 07:32:19 PM »
And 3, and 6 and 8 and...  ::)

God how I hated math. >:(
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Offline kghost

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Re: Sprocket teeth
« Reply #9 on: October 15, 2006, 07:34:13 PM »
And 3, and 6 and 8 and...  ::)

God how I hated math. >:(

Me too Bob....Me too.....

Otherwise I'd BE an engineer instead of a freight dog.
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Offline petercb750

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Re: Sprocket teeth
« Reply #10 on: October 15, 2006, 08:45:09 PM »
And 3, and 6 and 8 and...  ::)

God how I hated math. >:(

8?????? Bob, you must have hated maths, or skipped school that day!  ::)
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Offline kghost

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Re: Sprocket teeth
« Reply #11 on: October 15, 2006, 09:01:47 PM »
And 3, and 6 and 8 and...  ::)

God how I hated math. >:(

8?????? Bob, you must have hated maths, or skipped school that day!  ::)

In mathematics, a prime number (or a prime) is a natural number that has exactly two (distinct) natural number divisors, which are 1 and the prime number itself. There exists an infinitude of prime numbers, as demonstrated by Euclid in about 300 B.C..

Actually 3 is a prime number.....

6 and 8 are not....... ::) ;)
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Re: Sprocket teeth
« Reply #12 on: October 15, 2006, 09:21:14 PM »
umm ok.  I like my 15/41 set up I think. ???

Offline Loudpipe

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Re: Sprocket teeth
« Reply #13 on: October 15, 2006, 09:44:15 PM »
Excellent and very interesting writeup.
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Offline ic455

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Re: Sprocket teeth
« Reply #14 on: October 15, 2006, 11:57:23 PM »
I am thoroughly and utterly confused......

Offline nickjtc

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Re: Sprocket teeth
« Reply #15 on: October 16, 2006, 08:17:14 AM »
I am thoroughly and utterly confused......

Don't fret. Just keep doing what you normally do with regard to your chain and sprockets!
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Offline Bob Wessner

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Re: Sprocket teeth
« Reply #16 on: October 16, 2006, 08:28:46 AM »
And 3, and 6 and 8 and...  ::)

God how I hated math. >:(

8?????? Bob, you must have hated maths, or skipped school that day!  ::)

I was referring to the fact that 48 is divisible by 8 (as well as 3 and 6 also, so it too is not a prime). Though I wish I had skipped school that day.  ;) ;D
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Offline Mark M

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Re: Sprocket teeth
« Reply #17 on: October 16, 2006, 12:50:23 PM »
Wow I didn't realy expect to get an answer - and I got the whole damn book, great stuff.
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Offline kghost

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Re: Sprocket teeth
« Reply #18 on: October 16, 2006, 02:46:21 PM »
Careful what ya wish for here with this lot  ;D
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Offline Mark M

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Re: Sprocket teeth
« Reply #19 on: October 16, 2006, 03:13:54 PM »
So you managed to sit through all that stuff about sprocket ratios - I wonder what was in the last 20 hours........... I just want to do that bit!
In the UK anything over 40 years old only needs insurance and Fuel.

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Re: Sprocket teeth
« Reply #20 on: October 16, 2006, 04:43:00 PM »
Sounds like 17/47 would be a good way to go eh?
both primes

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Re: Sprocket teeth
« Reply #21 on: October 16, 2006, 07:06:52 PM »
I just put on a really really good X-ring chain.

I'm half way there with a 17/40 ;D
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Offline crazypj

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Re: Sprocket teeth
« Reply #22 on: October 17, 2006, 12:26:59 PM »
Dont remember where I read it but 19t is optimal The wear is spread evenly and the chain doesnt have to make such a tight turn as with a 17t.
I think it was from Reynolds Chains, about a gazzillion years ago. Of course, there generally isnt room rto fit that size sprocket ( but I think its why Triumph, et. al. did it years ago.
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Re: Sprocket teeth
« Reply #23 on: October 17, 2006, 02:18:35 PM »
course this mainly works with 530 chains. My 630 has a 15 tooth front which probably comes out to a 18 in 530.